Lysergic Acid Amides

[Green2Herman]

I haven't tried morning glory. Is it public understanding that it is more visual compared to HBR?

Also I used to like HBR. I didnt mind the nausea that much. It did pass rather fast. Although after some trips my brain learned to regognice the smell of it and that gives me now an even more intensive nausea compared to the real thing, although passing faster. Acctually I get a slight nausea even from thinking about it.  And it have been maybe 2 years since I last tried it :?

But I do have quite a lot of high quality seeds at home and was thinking about trying some extraction. Which should be most close to the "real" method? And which nausea could I expect from that? And will it have that terrible HBR-seed smell and taste  :roll:

[EA-1306]

Hypothetically speaking using cold slightly acidified distilled water (a bit of lime juice) to soak freshly and finely ground flour of the MG seeds for about an hour and then drained and the seed mash discarded and the solution ingested would be very similar to the traditional method.

[Green2Herman]

Do that include traditional use of HBR also?

[EA-1306]

In many years of ethnobotanical study I have never come across traditional use of woodrose species as an entheogen. The plant has been used in india for some medicinal purposes.


Woodrose species and Ipomoea violacea contain somewhat different LSA alkaloids. However all of the nicer reports I am reading with woodrose species seem to involve water. What I have read leads me to believe that the morninglory seeds are a better choice when prepared properly without ingesting seed material. I have read much better reports involving them than I have involving woodrose, though when the seeds are ingested or the LSA's are extracted I have read adverse and or non-ideal reports for both.

[anti-light]

alright... i just ran across this thread....  and theres a few things i want to talk about.....


first off.... i highly recommend AGAINST USING NAPTHA... or coalmans lighter fluid...... or ISOHEAT  sold at common stores.....



its like the subject of denatured alcohol.....  ive heard people recommend it as well......

denatured means that theres added chemicals to render the product non-consumable...... yeah... the bottle says all over it "nuerotoxic poison" and shit like that...



so... that  leads to ISOHEAT... and NAPTHA......
both are NONCONSUMABLES.....


and any extractions done with these products will leave a nasty residue.... beyond the sensitivities of our instruments.....




what would one use to extract good stuff from your favorite herbs.... use ethanol (everclear)


so what.... 5 percent water is really really low.....
and the water just picks up tannins and such.....




yeah.... if one would boil pearly gate MG's..... and when they start to float..... try to peel em...... once they are barely soft enough to peel..... use the tips of your thumbs and split it apart..... its a white seed.... and there will be a black brain in the middle.....

use fingernails to take out the small amount of black.... and put aside....

do this with 500 seeds.....
saving the black shit...



well... yes... heat does destroy... or denature.... lsa....
but hey.... eating em as you peel em is always a great patience meditation....

and when your stomach starts to hurt...... thats probably enough...



yup...... i started out with mg a long time ago..... i did it few a few months.... off and on.....

it was by far my favorite..... more so than lsd even.....in some ways atleast...



i found the mg's more intense.... not too much visuals.... unless you consider the minds eye......

i had just started into reading tai chi and eastern philosophy.... and the mg's blew my mind.....men and women... yin and yang....

and then i walked into a room where my friends were watching the simpsons..... and i cried lauphing so hard cuase it was a fucking great episode... and the back of my neck was a ball of energy.... intense...




yup......hbwr was much more mellow..... i would go into a  sleep... and then curl inward into fedal position.... for 15 minutes.... and then outstrectch for  15 .... back and forth.... the whole time images of succulents and cacti flashed through my head (i was getting very interested in cacti at the time)


yup..... grind em up..... soak in everclear.....strain as much shit as possible out.... and then evaporate the alcohol.... till its as dark or potent as you like...


make shure to do a shitload at once.... so that youll have a reserve to "nibble" out of .... instead of doing all the work of an extraction and getting a small amount and take half and its not enough.....

of course... you might want to experiment first  just to make shure your product is active...


peace yall

[EA-1306]

No visuals though?

[Green2Herman]

In many years of ethnobotanical study I have never come across traditional use of woodrose species as an entheogen. The plant has been used in india for some medicinal purposes.


Woodrose species and Ipomoea violacea contain somewhat different LSA alkaloids. However all of the nicer reports I am reading with woodrose species seem to involve water. What I have read leads me to believe that the morninglory seeds are a better choice when prepared properly without ingesting seed material. I have read much better reports involving them than I have involving woodrose, though when the seeds are ingested or the LSA's are extracted I have read adverse and or non-ideal reports for both.

Thats very interresting. Looking at the use in South America it, without anytime acctualy tried to make a tabulation of different plants, that the use could be moved in 3 groups:
1) Cactii.
2) Plants that contain harmalin together with something else active.
3) Plants combined with something with harmaline.
A lot of seeds contain harmaline. I wonder if Morning Glory could have some harmaline? HBR together with syrian rue gets more visual. It will even get "painfull" visual with large doses.

Rivea corymbosa we have traditional use of? Isnt that the old Ololiuqui?

Commenting on my rather informal statement and leaving out 1). We would have the following example.

2) Yoppi, tobacco.
3) Tropane containing plants, different kind of Ayahuasca brews.

[EA-1306]

Interesting.
I do not think that the ipomoea seeds contain Harmaline or harmine, I suspect the activity from the water preperation is due to some unexplained chemical changes or molecular contortions. The chemistry of the MG seeds is different than the woodrose seeds.

I wonder about the woodrose harmaline/harmine combination. I suspect that this is unique to harmalkaloids as that several studies suggest it cannot be due to the MAOI effects. This also leads me to suggest another number of your list
4) Plants that contain harmaline/harmine/harmalkaloids. These are use alone as visionary substances, and the effects are reputed to be quite profound.

Also we have yopo snuffs, though these contain some harmalkaloids their effocacy seems due more to their tryptamine content.

In the amazon some shamans combine caapi and cacti. Studies suggest that MAOI makes tryptamines last longer in the system, but do not actually potentiate them (SSRI's potentiate tryptamines). However some evidence suggests that MAOI does potentiate phenylethylamines.

Check out this PDF, the section on Morning glory seeds is very interesting.
http://www.maps.org/psychedelicreview/v ... 275was.pdf

[Green2Herman]

Probably I should take the time to make a better list. It could be quite interresting. Acctually we could put your 4) into the one with MAOI and change MAOI to harmaline since it allways seems to me harmaline. Harmaline is quite discreet but active.

I do not beliave that SSRI will potentiate tryptamines if you have used them regular. SSRI do not really increase the amount of serotonine but level it out. I think that his probably means that you will need a bigger amount of tryptamines to be affected. Novel use SSRI should however potentiate tryptamines.

[Green2Herman]

I found some information on the Erowid supporting the notion of SSRI decreasing tryptamines. Altough I think they are wrong to. Novel use of SSRI should increase the effect while regular use should decrease it. Acctually I think that fresh SSRI like escitalopram will decrease them more compared to Prozac.

[anti-light]

oh yeah..... i have also crushed up three hbwr seeds.... and swallowed spit.... excluding seed material....

this method does work fine..... im shure theres a million variations as well

[Green2Herman]

I found this:
"
Chemical structure of ergine

Ergine, also known as d-lysergic acid amide, LSA, and LA-111, is an alkaloid of the ergoline family that occurs in various species of vines of the Convolvulaceae and some species of fungi. As the dominant alkaloid in the hallucinogenic seeds of Rivea corymbosa (ololiuhqui), Argyreia nervosa (Hawaiian baby woodrose) and Ipomoea violacea (tlitliltzin), it is often stated that ergine and/or isoergine (its epimer) is responsible for the hallucinogenic activity. In fact, the effects of synthetic ergine and isoergine are not particularly hallucinogenic, see Mixing the Kykeon below for a summary of human trials, and Chapter 17 and entry #26 of TiHKAL for further discussion. Whether or not these compounds account for the hallucinogenic effects of the seeds remains unclear. Ergine is a DEA schedule III drug in the United States."

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergine

Suggesting the same thing, that LSA isnt that psycedelic. I never tried to extract it so I shouldnt comment. Also a lot of people tend to get good sessions with "LSA-extractions" but the extraction method will just about remove anything from the seeds so that doesnt say especially much.

I had however once the chance to try some pure LSA. Didnt get the "HBR" feeling from that. Rather boring. At the time I silent blamed that on the chemist. Maybe time to reconsider?

This is question is acctually quite interresting. Its sad that the area isnt legal and social acceptable so we could get some hard cash to investigate it, instead of everyone spending cash on either hard drugs or police.

[RedDragon]

there are several reports in Albert Hoffman's book "LSD: My Problem Child" of LA-111 use. in the book it was stated to be psychoactive at doses 10 to 20 times that of LSD..it was said to often produce a state of psychic emptiness, sedation, anxiety or well-being, and auditory and sensory enhancement, but was considered less hallucinogenic than LSD, and one could even fall asleep on it.

of course, the entire seed will produce different effects than individual compounds, but from my usage of mg seeds i can attest that his description of LA-111 corresponds to my experiences with the seeds, although the seeds additionally had much stomach discomfort and nausea. But i've never had the opportunity to sample pure LA-111!

LA-111 and LSD can both be produced from the ergot-alkaloid ergobasine, which is also present in mg seeds. i don't know if ergobasine itself was ever ingested by Albert Hoffman or anyone else in the pure state. They no doubt tried other ergot alkaloids on themselves, but i can't remember if it says in the book.

[EA-1306]

RedDragon
Did those experiences involve eating seed material or a more traditional water based extraction?
It sounds like eating seed material or solvent extraction. I have read of much more LSD like effects with the more traditional preparation methods.

[RedDragon]

a FOAF has eaten mg seeds raw a dozen or so times, and did the water extraction a few times. In my experience nausea is not a constant for either method, but can appear in both. And with both methods he also found the experience could ressemble LSD...not only with the water extraction.

I remember on one occasion, he ingested ~150 heavenly blue seeds by chewing and swallowing. There was no nausea and the experience was very much like LSD although of course the peak only lasted 2-3 hours, the entire experience maybe 6 hours. On a few other occasions i can definitely remember that he chewed and swallowed, there was no nausea and there was no feeling of emptiness as described by Hoffman.

Interestingly i remember that in his earlier experiments, he did it several times with an experience similar to Hoffman, with apathy and sedation and a heavy feeling...plus the nausea. It's interesting that to my memory these experiences dissapeared in the later years of use. Also note, in none of the aforementioned trips did he use seeds he'd grown himself, it was always from massive commercial vendors, like Mackenzie Seeds, etc.

This leads to several possibilities. Maybe different batchs of the seeds were grown under different conditions, with different fertilizers, or with residual pesticides on them. Another possibility is that like some other drugs, maybe the "energetic matrix" of a person can be the determinant between a good and bad trip. This would mean that even within a single batch of seeds, someone might go through a whole period of getting ill, and then another period without getting ill...to my recollection this is what my friend said happened to him.  substances such as foxy, mushrooms, ayahuasca, mescaline or the 2c- family come to mind as having variable nausea depending on emotional state of the person. Pretty much the whole gang of psychedelics!   :lol:  And of course there's the most immediate reason of nausea from MG seeds, the TASTE!

I remember one time where my friend got very nauseous and puked from a water extraction, before he had even finished drinking it. This was SOLELY due to the taste. This was followed by a very unpleasant experience lying in bed for 3 or so hours in a hazy state.

Again in the Hoffman reports, there was no talk of nausea or vomiting, so we might come to the conclusion that the actual nausea in many Convulvalaceae lysergoid sessions is an ENTIRELY different cause of "unpleasant experience" than the one in Hoffman's experience (the apathy, etc). I clarify this only because the actual nauseous experience on MG seeds usually involves an significant increase in body temperature and similar feeling of sedation and fatigue, and often apathy.

All of this just makes me think even more that the difference between good and bad psychic effects with these seeds is a matter of "set", as much as of method of preparation or nauseous component.

So, as you can see, from my point of view, it's not as simple as method of ingestion, although the water extraction is definitely easier on the stomach and in general has less chance of nausea and therefore an unpleasant trip, which is why i would always recommend the cold water brew...  

also NOTE:  my friend later on actually GREW the vines himself, of the Heavenly Blue variety, and found the seeds to be MUCH more potent than the store-bought ones. He said that 25-30 of these seeds was equivalent to ~70-80 of the store-bought ones, BUT in ADDITION, he discovered that could get a decent trip going without the nausea. Maybe this is because the seeds' LSA content deteriorates quicker than some other nauseants in it (chanoclavine??), meaning that with store-bought seeds you have to ingest more of the OTHER component to get a decent trip, thereby increasing nausea.