What makes a being "sentient?"

[laughingwillow]

amom: Thanks for turning me on to Wilber. I've found some interesting views, including the states of pathology highlighted below. This seems to fit in with my theory that the average human could very well use a bit of assistance while spiritually unfolding due to the nature of all things ego related.  

quote from the link below: STATES OF PATHOLOGY
........................ Stage five people are breaking out of stuckness by jumping off the cliff edge of stage five into the bottomless abyss of Buddhist meditative states. But the problem with this is that you cannot be stageless. These people are just carrying the fifth stage with them into Buddhist meditation.............. Applying this to our cliff jumpers we see that one of the ordinary inner states for their fifth stage is a feeling of not-belonging. This means, for example, we may not belong with either democrats or republicans because both are right and both are wrong. Or we may not belong with either theists or atheists because both are right and both are wrong.................  One such explanation is French existentialism which tells us we are "alienated." Another such explanation is, of course, the theories of Fowler who tells us its hard to truly belong to one thing when we believe the truth of its opposite. When fifth stage people "jump off the cliff" and start practicing Buddhist meditation they may suddenly find themselves experiencing a state of "oneness with everything" and yet they continue to carry the (LL) baggage of the fifth stage. If that baggage happens to be dominated by feelings of alienation in a particular individual, then that becomes the interpretive paradigm for the experience of oneness. "Wow, in meditation I feel oneness with all as opposed to my usual oneness with nothing in the mundane world!" The success of the meditation thus has the effect of reinforcing the mistakes of the underlying paradigm, resulting in a vicious circle of non-growth. Wilber sees this condition as another form of spiritual pathology.

We can perhaps better illustrate this spiritual pathology with some clearer examples. Let's modulate back a couple of stages and revisit our Catholic contemplative prayer retreat. Among the attendees, there will inevitably be one member of the hosting parish who signs up for the weekend retreat fully expecting to experience a personal visitation from the Virgin Mary. We'll say this person is a middle aged female who is obviously still straddling the second and third stages of faith even at her mature age. Predictably, midway through the second session she enters a deep state of bliss which she interprets as the immediate presence of the Blessed Virgin who has come personally to inspire and bless her (it's all about me). The power of this experience now has the effect of reinforcing the lowest of the two stages she straddles (stage two: Mythic/Literal). Thus by practicing this Catholic form of meditation she locks herself into a vicious circle of paradigm reinforcement which obstructs her spiritual growth. Spiritually, she would have been better off drinking with her friends that weekend than praying!

Wilber often talks about a very common form of this meditative pathology that he calls "boomeritis." This particular pathology occurs when a person is in Wilber's "green" stage cognitively speaking, but has moral and emotional baggage left over from an earlier narcissistic stage. So let's use for an example a 45 year old divorced man. For a while he attended the Methodist Church because of his wife, but dropped out after the divorce. Personally, he strongly believes in global pluralism, hires ethnic minorities in his business, recycles trash to help save the planet, and believes that no religion is an exclusive path to salvation. He has lost the social stability of marriage and feels spiritually empty after trying to meet women in bars. So he joins a Buddhist meditation group for two different sets of reasons that are linked to his two (split) stages of consciousness. First of all, his pluralism directs him to a religion that emphasizes universal consciousness. Secondly, he chooses Buddhism specifically because TV shows make it look sexy (self-mastery plus martial arts equals superhero). Thirdly, a meditation group will be a great place to pick up women without looking like a lecherous bar-hopper. It is pure narcissism behind these last two motives for meditation. So let's say our friend attends the group regularly, experiences some bliss, and meets a new trophy girlfriend. Obviously, the meditation serves to powerfully reinforce the lower narcissistic stage. "I am a cool hero of self-mastery and a babe magnet." In Wilber's view, this is the ultimate in meditation-based spiritual pathology.

Conclusion
If we could distill this whole discussion into a single principle it would be: The value of states increases in direct proportion to advancement through the stages. A lot of American Buddhism has the cart before the horse—it is seeking the instant gratification of states instead of the long-term investment of stages. It has often consisted of little more than the idea that meditation leads to mystical experiences that will result in "enlightenment." But mystical states can be just another yuppie achievement in this context. Transpersonal states of mind are to be thought of as neither an achievement nor an attainment. They are a tool that, when combined with right thinking, will help us dump achievement, dump attainment, and dump ego. The idea that "meditation causes enlightenment" is a classic example of prerational magical thinking. While Wilber promotes Buddhism, seemingly because of its advantage of having a more straightforward spiritual language than other religious options, he also clearly argues that the mystical states of mind often popularly associated with Buddhism have little value unless they occur in an advanced stage of faith and that is something that can occur within (or without) any religion. His message to us is simple: "Grow up!" meaning grow though the stages of faith. That's where our spirituality should be focused—right thinking; right interpretation; right paradigm. If "enlightenment" itself has any meaning, then we saw it in the seventh stage: the right paradigm combined with the right [sustainable] state of mind.

http://nordan.daynal.org/wiki/index.php ... erspective

[Amomynous]

"I am a cool hero of self-mastery and a babe magnet."

Yes, but deep down, isn't that really what we all want? I mean, who wouldn't trade "enlightenment" for that?  

It has often consisted of little more than the idea that meditation leads to mystical experiences that will result in "enlightenment." But mystical states can be just another yuppie achievement in this context.

Yea, that's actually something that I've had to really work with, too. In my own meditation practice I have a tendency to view the state/experience as the end goal, and that's really kind of wrong-headed. The situation is actually probably exacerbated by my, er, "familiarity" with entheogens. Let's face it: with the entheogens you kind of have a faucet with states on demand, so it's hard not to see things in those terms.

I've been an on-and-off meditator for years, but it wasn't until I took up a pretty formal, daily practice that I really had to start dealing with these issues.

But I'm also actually on a bit of an entheogen hiatus at this point. I figure I've had access to pretty exhaled/transpersonal states for quite a while now through them, but to what end? How has it improved my life, made me better? I can't really answer those questions -- either positively of negatively -- but it has made me want to step back a little, take stock in things.  

His message to us is simple: "Grow up!" meaning grow though the stages of faith. That's where our spirituality should be focused—right thinking; right interpretation; right paradigm.

That's pretty much straight out of Buddhism: right view; right action; right effort (the three groups from the eightfold path).

[JRL]

In a weird bit of synchronisity(been tons of it lately) I just got a Facebook friends suggestion for Hank Harrison, and he lives here in Sacra.

Synchronisity is a highway sign on the path it always seems to me.......

[laughingwillow]

LOL

[judih]

yeah - i love when intersections let us know that the compass is still operating

[Satori]

Nice one Laughingwillow. Thanks for sharing it.

I have in my years had many talks with my philosophy teacher at uni about the use of psychedelics and religious experiences.
And to me it has always seemed clear, intellectually, that an experience of a religious nature, even though it happens on mushroom, must be drawn "down" and inspire everyday life. And everyday life must be used to heighten the awareness of the religious realms. But of course, this was, I later understood, easier said than done. And I now finally understand the warnings my philosophy professor gave me in using these. Not that they were bad, but I can have subtle ego attachments I do not realize that makes me cling to, or misinterpret, a lot of what the experience actually has to teach me. So in all my years of tripping and on and off meditating, I become more and more into everyday life as a meditation, and trying not to fool myself that I am close to "englightenment", but just a humorous man in a humorous situation called life. And thats still something.

[JRL]

Right on Satori.

Before enlightenment- chop wood and carry water
After enlightenment-- chop wood and carry water

"if you're really hip the passing years will show"


I think the proof is in the pudding, how do you live? How do you treat the people around you?

It's really hard for me to know what part psychedelics have had in shaping who I am, I didn't live that long without em, heavy 60s style trips every week when I was a young 15.....  
I suspect that they had a lot to do with it, for better and worse. I think we move slow on the path. Most of us had heavy trips that seemed to really change us in big way, but how soon we slip back into our old "game". I think repeated exposure with a sincere desire for growth can transform.

[laughingwillow]

It's really hard for me to know what part psychedelics have had in shaping who I am, I didn't live that long without em, heavy 60s style trips every week when I was a young 15.....  
I suspect that they had a lot to do with it, for better and worse. I think we move slow on the path. Most of us had heavy trips that seemed to really change us in big way, but how soon we slip back into our old "game". I think repeated exposure with a sincere desire for growth can transform.

This is where discussing the RITUAL use of active sacraments becomes really interesting for me.....

On one level, I've come to view the active sacrament as a viewing glass with the power of magnification. The process of dosing at a show becomes an activity with the primary purpose of gaining personal insight. A test, if you will. It is my responsibility to take the insights gleaned in the psychedelic state and put them into practice in my daily life. Subsequent ritual encounters help gauge personal progress.

lw

[JRL]

Interesting that the tribal cultures that use active sacraments all have involved rituals involving their use.
I think my outcome would have been better if I had been operating in a ritual context, instead of random tripping whenever I could.
In time I developed my own rituals, like asking for guidance and wearing a certain shirt that had belonged to my father, and using the time between ingesting and tripping to clean up my environment(good symbolism I think).

[Amomynous]

Right on Satori.

Before enlightenment- chop wood and carry water
After enlightenment-- chop wood and carry water

While I agree with what you're saying, you have to be really careful with this, lest it be a justification for stagnation, or at least inaction.

Along these lines, Lama Surya Das, a western teacher of dzogchen, cautions his students about a misinterpretation of the dzogchen teaching that "we're already enlightened, and there is nothing to do." Yes, he says, that may be true, but you have to be careful not to say it too soon. It's premature for (almost all of) us to say that there is nothing to do. From this side of whatever-it-is, it's an excuse. From the other side it is a statement of fact.  

So yes, after "enlightenment" you still chop wood and carry water, but that doesn't mean the experience or the meaning is the same as it previous was.

[PsillyBoy]

Lots of good stuff here.

Speaking about the possible evolution of consciousness on a group level. I'd say it's got to be possible for a group if you consider it possible for an individual - after all, what more is a group than a bunch of individuals? (OK, that's a little like saying: what more is an ant nest than a bunch of ants? As in: qualities tend to emerge when we organise together that are beyond the individual and exist only at the level of the group... then again we're all part of at least one "group" whether we like it or not. Blabover&out.)

But yeah, speaking personally, I'd think of it less as an "evolution of consciousness" and more as an "increase in consciousness". It's a long and winding road but I do feel that I am slowly making progress bringing more consciousness into my life, shining light into those shady areas that previously affected my behaviour without my knowledge, slowly getting more of a grip on my 'reactivity' and whatnot, becoming more comfortable with accepting the existence of those parts of me that I don't particularly enjoy (which at least gives them less of a chance to mess with my melon man). I think of this as becoming more conscious, and that in turn driving a kind of evolution of my person towards someone who is more at peace with themselves and more loving towards others - but not in the way that I would've been in that first naive initial rush of love & reckless trust, a love that's truer than that, a love that has the potential to be "ruthless" for want of a better word... not something that's going to leave me open to getting messed with left right & centre in this crazy world.

So I'd say consciousness, and more and more consciousness/higher levels of it, could be what we're evolving towards. And I'd also say that in some mysteriously mystical but still kinda practical way consciousness is actually required for anything to exist, and so everything has some degree of it (like Amom summarised earlier). So nothing exists that is totally without some kinda sentience I reckon.

The things which tend to be best at forcing me to become more conscious in my personal life are actually the more difficult events: arguments with loved ones, deaths, dangerous or idiotic impulses being followed, embarrassments being suffered etc... Yet these are also things that could force me to retreat and become less conscious, it's only because I know that that's a dead end that I generally find the strength to take a good hard look at them/me.

So I actually agree to some degree with some of the newage thinking about these wars and natural and un-natural dissasters and things being opportunities for some kind of growth (I don't really know about things moving towards a climax in 2012, or that these things might be happening as part of some kind of design, but I do know they present us with an opportunity - this chimes with my own experience).

So I see that as a people we are continually being given opportunities to become more conscious by looking at the shit that happens (OK, so stuff like wars and radiation-poisoning are more 'controllable' than earthquakes and tsunamis, but we can learn from and make changes according to all these things)... and I'm tempted to agree that time feels a little short for us to grow up, and that the pressure on us to become more conscious is only getting greater, and if we can't do that we'll be dealt with by the same natural laws as all life is subject to (whatever they might be!-) ...

So yeah, I can see that eventually we are going to have to learn from our mistakes, and learn from those things we can do nothing about, and maybe start making more informed, more conscious, choices about how to live in this world.

I think things like the psychedelic movement, the environmental movement, the anti-war movement, feminism, etc... are all part of this general trend of the human race as a whole towards becoming more conscious... they might not be perfect things but they're all steps in the right direction.

Much love family,x