What makes a being "sentient?"

[laughingwillow]

I've been grappling with this one as of late.

An acquaintance was having a discussion with my wife about dietary practices and how it relates to spirituality. He claimed that only a practicing vegan could make the claim of having real compassion toward other life forms. He claimed that any person NOT a vegan or consumer of only raw organic produce (Like him) was a "speciesist." (Never heard that word before.)

Anyway, part of his argument was the first tenant of Buddhism of never killing another another sentient being.      

However, I consider plant life to also be sentient. So, under my roof, anyone who places value of one sentient being over another sentient being is a "speciesist.

Life consumes life any way you cut it, imo,

lw

[judih]

it's all energy in vibration.
plants have auras - alive, alive oh

what is a sentient being?
what's okay to eat?
moderation in everything. Not pigging out, overconsuming - but rather with awareness of taking life to give life -(growing a carrot and consciously picking it to eat sounds similar to raising a winged creature or four legged being and taking its life to feed hungry humans)

But choice of diet has to be personal, taking all factors into account: personal lifestyle, protein needs, plus the essential nutrients required to live a healthy life for as long as possible.

Do any of you take food supplements?

[Glider]

Awareness of self, perhaps?

But I don't know if that answers the question so much as it begs the next question.  What counts as being aware of one's self?

My personal philosophy is a bit different.  I am convinced that everyone should, at least once in their life, raise some animal from infancy to slaughtering weight.  Slaughter it.  Butcher it.  Cook it.  And eat it.

It can be a chicken, if you like, or if you're up for the challenge something large like a pig or a cow.  

I truly believe that only at that point, where you've cared for the needs and well being of what is ultimately your food, can you truly appreciate that life ends on your dinner plate.  It doesn't matter if you eat pork, beef, chicken, or carrots.  When you eat, something else died to make it possible.  If you eat nothing but alfalfa sprouts, they still die.  The difference is that the life of one single cow provides many meals, where as one meal of sprouts requires the ending of many lives.

[laughingwillow]

Right on, Glider.

The only problem I have with raising animals for food is that I quickly bond with most any life form to which I tend. (Plant or animal.)

Hunting wild game is another story. I'm more comfortable with that role. And yet, there is still a connection I feel with my prey....

I once spotted a couple of rooster pheasants in a grove I had permission to hunt. I shot one of the birds the first day, but the other eluded me. As a matter of fact, that bird managed to outsmart me on a few occasions, (once emerging from a hiding spot at the base of a tree on the edge of the grove walking a few paces and flying off as I unloaded my gun yards away.) This bird was able to outflank me in that grove on a few occasions, only flying when he was safely out of range. In the end, I would have regretted shooting that bird, but it never happened, as I never had the opportunity......

lw

[amrad]

Hummm thats interesting LW, i guess in a strictly academic or religious interpretation of sentientcy.  It would be any being that is not aware of its true nature, from a Buddhist point of view anyway.  Its said that when the Buddha attained enlightenment he saw that all sentient beings were there already, i cant remember which sutra that was from.  But i guess it points to the fact that if we can peak under the veil of ignorance {delusion} everything is in the enlightenment. Soo I guess once the veil of ignorance is lifted our true nature shines forth.  Thats a bit long winded, but i think what i wanted to say would be  that your vegan friend labors under as much ignorance as us flesh eaters :wink:
  And do you ever wonder why they always make fake meat look and taste like the real thing?  One of my daughters is a vegan and she lives on fake hamburgers and wieners.  Seems very weird to me.   :roll:

[Syd]

I started reading The Omnivore's Dilemma awhile ago but never finished it. Michael Polan goes on and on about corn. There is only so much reading about corn a man can take. However the next book he wrote in the series, In Defense of Food is quite good, I'm actively reading it and do plan on finishing this one. It breaches these same questions. The answers found in these books are his and his alone. Only when we have our own answers will we be complete.

[amrad]

I think what motivated my daughter and her family to turn vegan was a book called the Chinese solution, or something like that.  I havent read it yet but its on the list.  
  From an environmental perspective being a vegan makes good sense, less impact for sure on the planet.  But to do it proper you really have to study how to mix foods so your not making your self malnourished.  
  But from a spiritual perspective, I think there is a lot of ego involvement with practicing austerities, and as far as violating the first tenant of Buddhism, well the Buddha DID NOT lay down hard and fast rules, they are only guidelines to follow as closely as you can.  I was told this by my Ajhan who was a disciple of the Vernerable Ajhan Chah.  Spiritual egotism is a huge hindrance on the path.
 If not eating meat a bit, hinders your health or practice, then you spiritually are obligated to eat meat.  After all most Mahayana Buddhist take the vow to do everything in there power to help all sentient beings, you help them most when you are free from delusion, not just by following rules.    His Holiness the Dali Lama was told to eat meat by his doctors because he was not able to practice and function at a high level while a vegetarian.  Everything in balance, you are far better off from a spiritual level to help other humans than animals, because only in the human physical form can beings attain enlightenment, that doesn't mean to be cruel to animals.  But its probably best to have as little dependence on animals as you can, either for companionship or food.
  That brings up a whole new subject, pets.  Lord people and their dogs and cats, now thats hard on the environment, they both are carnivores and are responsible for the slaughter of thousands of animals to feed them, and yet everyone has one or the other, even vegan Buddhist  :lol:  :lol:

[laughingwillow]

amrad: Thanks. What you say makes perfect sense to me.

"Practicing austerities," as you put it, has been a central tenant or at least a measuring stick by which many judge religious progress of their own as well as others. And this is where our ego really hinders our spiritual development, imo. Or to put it another way, this is where our egos may benefit from "special attention" to get past the personal fixation inherent in the human condition.  :cool2

lw

[amrad]

yep, like drug therapy :e_biggrin:
 I have friends as well as my own daughter that are a bit into " this is what a good -------, [Chrisitian, Buddhist, ect take your pick should look and act like}.  They think the outside form denotes what's happening inside, but what if there isnt anyone home in there? And its just individual kama playing its self out? :lol:
  When my daughter gets a bit fascist with her diet and spirituallity, I like to remind her of the Zen butcher who became enlightened.  Zen is full of characters like this.
  Ajhans Chah's teacher was a real cranky prick on the outside, but an enlightened master all the same, who led many of his deciples to enlightenment.

[laughingwillow]

Drug therapy is what I was getting at. But there is more to it than the drug, imo.

These lyrics from "Desolation Row," by Bob Dylan are the best way I can describe it....

They're spoonfeeding Casanova
To get him to feel more assured
Then they'll kill him with self-confidence
After poisoning him with words

lw

[amrad]

ya Bob sure has a way with words.
  Entheogens can for sure open the mind, but then what?  We need a high culture to fall back on, and I think this is what you are alluding to no?
  I always find it so ironical that most people that reject organized religion, search for years and only are happy when they have replaced that feeling of support with another organized something.
  Its like installing a new version of windows.

[Syd]

Q: What do you do if you think your computer becomes infected with a virus?
A: Buy a Mac.

Seen on the read board at my work!

Resume topic!
Whats wrong with organization? Do you think organized drug use will be bad? Do you call a session of group ayahuasca use unorganized or is it just religion? Than again in SA ayahuasca use is religious as are parts of the USA. Or did you mean mainstream religion?

[laughingwillow]

Naw, I'm alluding to the need of a teacher or interaction with a group of people familiar with the machinations of the ego in conjunction with drug therapy.

Btw, what did the zen butcher do the day after receiving enlightenment?

lw

[amrad]

chopped wood, carried water, ate a lot of hamburger :

[laughingwillow]

:e_biggrin:  lol  :lol:

lw