Sale of Pealed Cacti Skins = ALL TRICHOCEREUS Sp. ILLEGAL

[flip]

The beauty of cacti does not require a collector, but a collector who is passionate about the beauty of these life forms and truly scorns their acquisition for a "high" has nothing to worry about, even under the more draconian proposed laws, correct?

Incorrect.
Try telling that to the people that can't grow hemp for textiles.
Ignorance of the law - is no defense.
and since you're active on these boards many things can be surmised.

It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.

Here here!
The underground railroad ran for years. and it was those freed slaves
that escaped that proved most valuable in the fight against slavery.
Now if they tried to "escape" above ground yelling "FUCK YOU WHITEMAN"
they we're "punished" hobbled, castrated or simply lynched right there.

I want abolish slavery myself, but to do that we need to be smart(er).




everyone

I need your imput.

I've gotten a few replies from different vendors
and they make a valid point about the sales being legal
within their own nations and do not look likely to have
those laws change in the future (peru for example)

and would like to continue to serve their fellow citizens
(alright it's a bit pricey and listed in USD currencies on their website... but "whatever")

I have a certain vendor that has floated the idea of
restricting sales of peelings away from nations where it might cause problems. (namely the USA)
What does the larger community say about having peelings shipments
not being sent down to lets say AUS and the UK in addition to the USA?

I feel that the USA is the primary, not only because I live there,
they're also the very uptight about such things with heavy laws.
and they tend to bully other nations into complying with it's laws.

Do you guys and gals feel that your government isn't going to care
about peelings or make the distinction between those
and the live plants/seeds.

It seems that AUS outlawed kratom plants as well as the powder
that people were using for making tea.
and should be added to the "no ship to list" as well as the UK.

Thoughts please before I reply...

[space]

I see.

[CJ]

And then then i`m going to find the deepest hole I can find and hide my self for ever thinking I wanted such a thing in the first place,lest my gov`ment,like my former faith,find my thought a sin,and i could no longer fight the good fight.

     EA-1306, theres some parts of your arguement what i would accept,since they seem to be based on assessment of the practical world,and not  denial for those who could not proceed as you. After all,what one does w/ a whole cacti is between them and the camera on the wall,.. no..you arn`t saying that, something is very much disturbing me here. not your arguements ....

     I personally have nothing to say to any vendor of any thing of this nature...Nothing to say at all.

     (theres other subjects that do not involve these particular issues that I would have a completly different attitude about,irrevelant except for the determination )

[laughingwillow]

quote ea: It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom..

I would have agreeds with that point if the "experts" had acted on this topic before they went out of their way to promote these plants for their sacramental properties, For example, if MS was really only interested in the visual, astetic properties of the cactus, why did he bother to publish a book on the various activity levels?

Personally, I've never bought or consumed dried cactus flesh.

I believe space has laid out my/our position so thoughtfully and cogently that I'm surprised this conversation is still proceeding.

This is just another attempt by the elitists to controll the unwashed masses, imo.

Read space's posts again, fellas.The rest is bullshit, imo.

lw

[EA-1306]

I think this is advice so people can protect themselves.

Read all of the posts and make your own decision.

[laughingwillow]

We've been having the same conversation over the years concerning the precarious legality of various entheogens. All one need do is insert the current substance under consideration. The rest hasn't changed much.

But I do get a kick out of the idea posted above in regard to the plan to contact the various vendors down south in an effort to po-lice the situation.

What about an effort to get the bookstores to stop selling the experts books concerning the alkaloid content of various cactus? That might throttle down on the demand considerably.

quote EA: I think this is advice so people can protect themselves.

While the desire to help protect us is noble, it would appear you are going to have to stand in line, as those with more official sounding credentials have already taken that task upon themselves.

lw

[laughingwillow]

SO I was just doing the dishes when I started wondering just who you folks are really attempting to help. And right about then, the big-time collectors came to mind, for they have the most to lose. (Maybe even the ones who collect for beauty but publish for activity.)

lw

[EA-1306]

Why the hostility?

There is no hierarchy in the OCC.

I have no desire to help protect you, I have a desire to help people protect themselves.

Your rhetoric has sounded more elitist than any in this thread.

[laughingwillow]

I see.....

lw

[space]

Quote:
It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.  

Here here!
The underground railroad ran for years. and it was those freed slaves
that escaped that proved most valuable in the fight against slavery.
Now if they tried to "escape" above ground yelling "FUCK YOU WHITEMAN" they we're "punished" hobbled, castrated or simply lynched right there.

I hadn't planned to reengage on this thread, since I felt both points of view were pretty well laid out...though I would like to have a citation for that little old lady popped for poppies, since the Opium Act, if memory serves, specifically excluded ornamental uses; and hemp prohibition was pushed by the bureaucratic/police state holdovers of Prohibition in concert with the economic interests of big textile and paper manufacturers, not because of provocative potheads.

But the above quote re:  slavery is an interesting bit of revisionist history. If one posits that Underground Railroad escapes were a good thing, an accurate reading of those events supports my perspective better than yours.  

The operation of the Underground Railroad considerably intensified the suffering of the slaves left behind:  security was tightened, and scorched-earth group punishment was used to discourage the others.  I'm not sure how an escape could be thought of as being "camouflaged" in any way.   Gone is gone, and those left behind were whipped, raped, beaten and shackled as a consequence.  Escapees' families were broken up and sold to as many slaveholders as there were family members.  

It seems to me that my perspective supports similar resistance, while yours would have favored not rocking the boat in order to forestall the above.

I celebrate the escapes to freedom along the U.R.--but those escapees had no direct impact on the end of slavery.   Enormous economic and political forces led to a war that almost incidentally ended that abomination.  Those escapes were triumphs of the unquenchable individual will to liberty despite the heavy price the community paid.

An even more apt analogy is the response of Occupied France Nazis to attacks by the Resistance:  just line up nearby villagers and gun them down.  The "moderates"--who opposed overt resistance as futile and counterproductive--are now called collaborators.  They had it pretty good, compared to the masses, with nice possessions and pastimes and didn't want anyone else to provoke reprisals and spoil the party.  

The Underground Railroad was the in-your-face response to slavery; those who urged restraint favored a moral campaign to change the hearts and minds of the oppressors along with legislative efforts, both fruitless.  

The slave referred to in the quote above, shouting defiant insults in the face of certain death, is a straw man.  The choices were more realistically between hoping to survive the fields to maybe someday become a house slave or buy one's own freedom v. trying to escape despite the risks and consequences.

BTW, trust me on this:  by the time online forums are debating about keeping something under the radar, the radar screen is already lit up like a Christmas tree.  

If you stumble across an incredible entheogen that seems previously unknown, keep it offline, set up a classic cell structure with single contact cut-outs between cells, and do the true underground thang.

[laughingwillow]

Any perceived hostility would be due to the perceived elitism of the topic at hand. And I do not deny harboring a certain amount of animosity toward those who come around pander their elitist desires.

And if giving a shit less about offending said cactus experts with my comments makes me an elitist, then count me in, brawh.  :shock:

ps: Where do I send me dues?

lw

[EA-1306]

LW- to each their own. You have stuck me often as a very considerate person, even at forbidden fruit many years ago.  Your harshness just seems odd to me.

Space,
While I may not agree with what you imply about the responsive measures that we have as options, I do agree with the last bit of advice.

People are doing that. The info that has been published is not without tact and consideration.

I don't think we should be martyrs, and I still think the analogies though very intelligent  are not apt. There does not seem to be a retaliation for underground information and procedures. In the case of the slave, slaves went missing, and thus the rest were punished. However as to the other aspects that are not available due to tact, both online and in publication, it is not as if there is some missing aspect that promotes retaliation.

I would offer my opinion and advice, I would never tell others what to do or what to sell. I would rather they make their own choices.

As to the radar, I think that it is not too late to continue with tact and not abandon all the careful consideration that has been maintained.

I think we still have options and that things are not too late for damage control. Perhaps I am wrong.

[space]

EA:  I think you are sincere and well intentioned.  I hope your efforts turn out well.  

Dead wrong about lw, tho...maybe the least elitist person I know.

[laughingwillow]

Well, EA, you have the upper hand on me then. I have no idea who you are nor forbidden fruits. Well, FF does sound a little familiar.

I guess I just see you guys as an anonomous mouthpiece for a few who have chosen to assume high profiles on the topic at hand in the past but now have a desire to protect their own morphing best interests.

And yeah, I'll admit that rubs me wrong.

lw

[EA-1306]

It would rub me that wrong way too.

I was around at the FF forum for few years (joined in 98 ), and have been a member here (under a different name that this site would not let me re-register when it switched from.com to .org.)
I have been a member here since around late 99 or so as Anhalonium, though I must say I have never been treated well.

I can't figure out why either, I figured it was elitism.

I am me, unique and not a sock.
People can speak for themselves, that's what I do, and that’s all I can do.

I don't agree with all of what Flip has to say, but I am concerned about it.