Are you awake?

[laughingwillow]

amom: I like the direction you have steered this conversation.

There are quite a few examples of local top-down hierarchies in nature. Bees, cats, some primates and wolves being a few. Also, the breeding of many species is controlled by dominant herd members.

And as humans are part of nature, I dare say our social systems are just as organic. However, there does appear to be a point at which a centralized decision making process is too large and cumbersome to efficiently and effectively meet local needs.

Its mind blowing to think how far technology has progressed since our country was founded. And yet, we continue to conduct our collective affairs much as we did over 200 years ago...

lw

[Zaka]

You say "one world government" like it's a bad thing. What did John Lennon say:

Imagine there's no countries

Irie,
I don't think Lennon meant "one world government" by saying no countries.
Might have made an interesting line though.

Imagine a one world government,
Run by a new world order,
Living in tyranny, oh ho,
No need for elections,
Everyone with lovely tracking chips,
Controlled by gestapo,
(Everyone sing)
Living in tyranny....Oh ho :lol:

Respect
Z

[Syd]

What did John Lennon say...Living life in peace...

APC did a sick ass cover of Imagine, kinda makes my ears tingle!

[JRL]

its a great song, my band the Jokers does it too.

[Syd]

its a great song, my band the Jokers does it too.

Does it happen to be on youtube or anywhere else? I'd like to listen to it.

[Zaka]

What did John Lennon say...Living life in peace...

APC did a sick ass cover of Imagine, kinda makes my ears tingle!

Irie,
Sorry who the fuck is APC?
Probably some crappy MTV bullshit band?
I don't know? Still keeping away for poisonous TV!
Respect
Z

[Amomynous]

There are quite a few examples of local top-down hierarchies in nature. Bees, cats, some primates and wolves being a few. Also, the breeding of many species is controlled by dominant herd members.

Yes, there are some top-down structures, but they tend to act locally, or at an individual level.

Even given that, it seems like the more we learn, the less hierarchical some of these structures are. A perfect example is in the individual. The brain has long been considered the "central controller" of the body, but as we learn more about human and animal physiology the more broadly we have to define "brain." Thinking isn't limited to the cranium: the entire nervous system, the heart, the stomach--these all play some role is what we consider cognition. Throw in the endocrine system, and one quickly sees that our mental states are a whole-body phenomena.  

DNA is another example. When DNA was discovered it was thought of as the controlling code that determined the ontogeny of the individual, but many of the brightest biologists are starting not to see it that way. The development of the individual arises from the interface and interaction between the genetics and he environment (that's why, for example, cells move from identical copies near conception to fully differentiated types at birth). Since people like predictions, here's one: in 20 years time scientists won't even be studying genes as things in themselves as they are now; all research will be conducted placing strong emphasis on gene expression, giving environment equal emphasis to genetics.

And as humans are part of nature, I dare say our social systems are just as organic. However, there does appear to be a point at which a centralized decision making process is too large and cumbersome to efficiently and effectively meet local needs.

They (we) are organic and natural, and I would have to say that we've already reached a level where they are maladaptive and inefficient.

Efficiency is an interesting idea, in part because it is often confused with optimization (I wrote about that sometime recently; hopefully it wasn't here). Efficiency is good--biospheres, individuals, and ecologies are all highly efficient--but it is possible to over-optimize things. Over-optimization leads to fragility and inefficiency (in the long run), and I would posit that we've also hit that point in human society. The current "financial crisis," for example, doesn't come from the fact that our markets are efficient. It comes from them being over-optimized, and thus very sensitive to perturbations.

Further complicating things is the fact that sometimes optimization and efficiency are correlated, so trades need to be made between efficiency and sensitivity to external conditions (think of a manufacturing plant that uses a just-in-time supply chain; it is very efficient, but if there is a perturbation with one of the suppliers the whole thing comes screeching to a halt). Unfortunately, as a whole we almost always over-optimize by choosing efficiency over stability and robustness, and so we have some very fragile systems out there!

One-world government is an example of an optimized, efficient system that is so over-extended in terms of scale that I can't imagine how it wouldn't end in disaster. At our core, we humans have a real fetish for control, and establishing such a government would allow us to self-actualize in a very bad way!

Its mind blowing to think how far technology has progressed since our country was founded. And yet, we continue to conduct our collective affairs much as we did over 200 years ago...

Hmm. I'll have to think about this. At first blush it seems to be that we conduct our affairs in a very different way. Can you clarify?

[Zaka]

Irie Amomynous,
Excellent post :bravo
Loads of good stuff to chew on!
Respect
Z

[laughingwillow]

Clarification: Our form of State/Federal Gubmit as well as election procedures have remained fairly constant over the past two centuries even though technology has changed the way we do bidness.

lw

[laughingwillow]

quote zaka: Sorry who the fuck is APC?
Probably some crappy MTV bullshit band?
I don't know?

I find the above statements to be quite interesting. Especially in light of the fact that I also didn't know the band to which Sid referred. The difference being that I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion that Syd was recommending "a crappy MTV bullshit band."

I guess I feel a little sorry for any fellow who claims to shun pop culture but still feels a need to bring up McDonalds and MTV in the same thread due to the mention of a band called APC and cheese burgers......... I don't know?

[Syd]

Sorry who the fuck is APC?
Probably some crappy MTV bullshit band?
I don't know?

Ever heard of Google? APC is A Perfect Circle, a Maynard James Keenan side project, the lead singer of Tool. Maynard is a god among men.
Kids these days.

[JRL]

its a great song, my band the Jokers does it too.

Does it happen to be on youtube or anywhere else? I'd like to listen to it.

Not yet.

[Amomynous]

Clarification: Our form of State/Federal Gubmit as well as election procedures have remained fairly constant over the past two centuries even though technology has changed the way we do bidness.  

That's a good example.

I guess it's a testament to the Founding Fathers that they were able to create something that has continued to "kind of work" for so long!

[Syd]

Still keeping away for poisonous TV!

I don't even own a TV.

[Amomynous]

Probably some crappy MTV bullshit band?
I don't know? Still keeping away for poisonous TV!
Respect

With regards to poisonous TV: Prisonplanet is all bunnies and daisies? You can claim that it's "all true," but that still doesn't mean that it doesn't poison your mind.  

The medium is the message.

Like Syd, I stay away from all TV, and have for about a decade. I can't see a reason for it.