Time to tell thetruth about Israel:

[Bushpig]

Time to tell thetruth about Israel:

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

Boooshpig

[Juicemonkey]

David icke is a fucking nut

hes worse than a nut
hes a positively dangerous piece of misinformation

if i were the establishmnet i couldnt make up a better person to mislead and discredit the enquiring minds of dissident youth

He makes a mockery of the tragedy faced by the people of palestine
invaded and massacred since the 1890's by foreigners (European Jews) who now claim and receive legitimacy as the racist and murderous state of Israel

Europe has to get over its guilt and realise it did the wrong thing stealing palestine to give it to the jews. The jews belong where they were, and that mostly is Europe, for the last thousand years. Polish jews in poland, russia to russia,Spanish to Spain. Israel is a 19th century invention, that historical culture was disbanded 2 thousand years ago. The Israel of today is no more Judaean than your london cockney is a 1st century briton, they are a mish mash of modern myth and European traditions, that have invaded the middle east. (historical laugh - the 'philistines' by the way were the same - Greek colonists so hopefully history will repeat, except this time the guy with the sling, isnt david its Ahmed)
And America needs to grow some balls too and put the hard word on those dickhead evangelicals who reckon if they support these fascists that their hay-soos is gonna come bursting through the sky. BULL-SHIT.

its all BS
and icke makes me sick riding on this so he can spout his crap while children are intentionally targeted with illegal schrapnel bombs.



yours sincerely pissed
JM

[Bushpig]

Hi JM,

I'm interested in your opinion here, you seem to slag of Ickes slant on it, and maybe some of it is wrong, maybe not, which elements exactly are you thinking are incorrect?  Icke also seems to be protesting for the rights of Palestinians, just as you seem to be.  It does not seem to me that he is 'riding on it' and isfact writing this in an effort to stop the killing,  Therefore which bits of his take do you dissagree or think are wrongful or misleading?  

Have you actually read the article?

bp

[kemp]

Oh jesus, here we go..... we have another snot-nosed, 20-something, know-it-all who has all the answers. Damn, I didn't realize it was that simple, blame the people when the real problem is the war mongering governments who use the people.

Please, fill us all in on how you can solve an extremely complex problem with a few words.

[caulfield]

Fareed Zakaria presents a cautious but fairly balanced perspective on the situation, arguing that the overwhelmingly brutal retaliation of Israel can be seen as a means to undermine the rise of Iran, but is resulting in a dangerous backlash of political sympathy for organizations the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah - serving to erode the favor Israel once enjoyed with Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Newsweek Article: 1/10/2009

In a related CNN interview, Zakaria stated that Israel was justified in retaliating with their attacks, but really should end the campaign quickly and lift the suffocating embargo.

CNN Interview: 1/7/2009

Then most recently on Jon Stewart he placed some of the blame on former president Bush.

Jon Stewart: 1/15

The annoying thing about any discussion regarding this urgent problem is that it demands a perspective that cannot be neutral. I can say that what Israel is doing is an outright atrocity and describe it with a long string of angry obscenities, but ask me what I think of Hamas and I would likely use many of the same words and it absolutely turns my stomach to think any of their supporters would agree with my cries of outrage.

[Bushpig]

Cheers for the links Caulfield,

So far looked at the first two.  I do not at all see these attacks as 'justified'.  Do not for a moment take that as thinking that HAMAS rocket attacks are OK either.  If however you are a Palestinian and you have been shit on from a great height for many decades and you have the choice of keeping on taking it, or retaliating, I know what most poeple would do.  It is injustice thats the issue here.  Remove the injustice and violence and HAMAS will stop.  They have already agreed (see link) to the proposed peace treatys and international efforts, it appears to be Israel that is hell bent on killing them all, and I mean all, civilians and combatants.  

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/video/012409.htm

Booshpig

[caulfield]

I can not argue against the idea that the nations of Israel and America are being run by politicians who seem to be bent on waging escalating levels of warfare in the Middle East. Historically it is all too true. I just can't foster any sympathy for an organization like Hamas in the same manner that I can squeeze out some amount of sympathy for the Jews as a people and, yes, even Israel as a nation. It does make me nauseated to know that we blindly support them while going on CNN and crying about how horrible their acts are.

There is a new film in theaters here called "Waltz with Bashir" about Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, wherein thousands of Palestinian civilians in refugee camps were purposefully allowed to die. The film was a contender for the Palme d'Or at the 2008 Cannes Film Festival and is written and directed by an Israeli. Roger Ebert wrote a very favorable review for it.

Waltz with Bashir ***1/2 by Roger Ebert (1/21/09)

In the very least I hope it has a similar impact on me as Munich, Spielberg's film which was lambasted by the Israeli government and boycotted by the Zionist Organization of America. Peace dude.

[Bushpig]

I just can't foster any sympathy for an organization like Hamas in the same manner that I can squeeze out some amount of sympathy for the Jews as a people and, yes, even Israel as a nation.

To my mind if there was any country that would oppose such war crimes it would be Israel (that is going on the 'popular' historical context) it only takes a moment glancing at the photo essay I linked to in this forum to realise that.  

Any hypothetical sympathy I may have been able to hold for Isael has long gone, as Noam Chomsky points out in that telephone interview HAMAS were in agreement with the treaty put forward to end violence and organise territories, and it was Israel who struck to bring them back again into conflict.  

Israel do not want a ceasefire, anymore than they want a Palestinian state, they opened fire at midday according to the Chomsky link above, with children coming out of school and many civilians on the streets.  I cannot symphasie with Israel whatsoever.

I will check that link when I have some more time, thanks for it muchly.

Boooshpig

[Juicemonkey]

What part don't I agree with Icke
I hope we were reading the same article

The world watches as a nation of people, the Palestinians, is systematically crushed and destroyed by the tyrants who call the shots in Israel on behalf of that country's real power structure - the House of Rothschild.

Why do they do this? Because the House of Rothschild controls Israel and the House of Rothschild controls the political system of the United States. The network that links the two is called 'Zionism', a Rothschild creation - just like Israel itself.

The 'Jewish homeland' was from the start a Rothschild fiefdom orchestrated through the global secret society network of interbreeding families known as the Illuminati.

This is bullshit.
You really think Israel is in the pockets of some western based conspiracy
Shit no. you are in their pockets. They are a rogue state and they own you.

To lay the blame in the hands of some imaginary third party is disgraceful.
It absolves the responsibility from those who perpetrate them.
What is going on is solely the responsibility of every man and woman who holds citizenship papers for Israel, and the leaders they democratically elect.
The children are innocent, but anyone who sells their birthright for that blood soaked piece of bread by doing their compulsory time in the IDF is guilty by association.
Only Children and the Refusniks remain pure.
(You cant even google that word without encountering malware - try it)

You cant say that one person cant make a difference. Theres only 6 million Israelis.
1 in 6 million still makes a ripple. But most stay silent = guilty

On the other hand I find it hard to blame the Palestinians at all
Everyone says oh how terrible what they do, the bombs the rockets.
That they are partly to blame
Rubbish.

They know what you all know deep down, because its their reality.
The roadmaps, the peace accord, Ceasefires
Its all bullshit. Israel lying and buying time to build another settlement, bulldoze another Palestinian village and 2000 year old olive grove. fit another piece into the roadmap to oblivion. The Israelis don't want peace because they believe they are going to win
They know its calculated genocide and when someone is trying to Kill you, your family and everyone you know. And to erase and invalidate your very existence from history
Then anything goes.

Ask yourself. What would you do in the face of a superior equipped alien force trying to eradicate you? I don't mean an ordinary war – I mean genocidal war. There can be no peace because they want you dead and gone so they can have your land.
So it's a fight to the death

So I say
Go Hamas
Fire those rockets
You've earned the right
If youre gonna go down, go down with a fight

The Allies are proud of how they pulled together in WW2
well the Palestinian War has been going over a hundred years, and 40 years strong
and still these people keep it together, and resist, they are amazing

In the end Israel wont last
It cant. No matter how many ways you compute it, it always ends in destruction
Like their own mythical King Saul – Live by the sword, Die by the Sword

[Bushpig]

Hi JM, glad you read the article in the end.

It seems we are pretty much on the same hymm sheet, therefore I have trouble understanding your hostility, other than young hotheadedness.  That said I notice one major difference that you outline.  Whereas Icke would say the house of Rothchild is part of a 'Pyramid' manipulating world events and that would include Israel, if I am understanding you correctly you are saying Israel is the rogue state alone and unconnected of any House of Rothschild interference orchestrating such events and control of other western governments.  

For the sake of peace and justice does it makes any difference? The effect appear to be the same? Fact is theres a tyranny a'foot.

Icke (to my mind) does not seem to be trying to make an excuse for Israel at all, if anything he is pointing the finger heavily in that direction.  And the main push of the article was to highlight the Palestinian/humanitarian plight at the hands of Israel, did that not come through as the major theme?

Booosh
EDIT: When i say on the same hymm sheet I do not really condone either sides attack of civilians.

[Juicemonkey]

For starters im not that young
but ive been involved with this issue since i was quite young

Good friends who are Aid workers who've lived in Palestine and lived through the terror that is inflicted on these civilkians by the IDF every waking moment

Oh jesus, here we go..... we have another snot-nosed, 20-something, know-it-all who has all the answers.

hey smart arse. This threads about the truth
not the answers

I did read the article in the begginning. its a good and otherwise accurate article

seems WE are talking the same language
but Icke is pushing his own mystic agenda on a wave of public sentiment

for the sake of Justice does it matter?  perhaps no
for the sake of Truth then yes

[caulfield]

Hey Bush,

When you have a spare minute, let me know what you think of this video:

Pat Condell: "What About the Jews?"

I have viewed alot of Condell's somewhat controversial videos over the years and most of them never really impressed me, as most often he is simply trying to pass off Christianity and Islam as equally ridiculous nonsense (arrogantly too). Here however, he tackles a different issue by discussing the Jews and their supposed homeland and I regarded his perspective as somewhat balanced

As a warning however, you do have to listen to the whole thing before he gets to the bits about Israel because in the start he is only fielding a question regarding why he likes to pick on Christians and Muslims, but not Jews (overall).

Peace, Caul

[laughingwillow]

I found this piece to be an interesting read...

quote from the article.... The words occupation and dispossession are flung around pretty freely, but I invite you to picture a life under occupation in which your unfriendly neighborhood cop did not even speak the language of the state that he served, let alone any tongue known to you. There is, by the way, a fair likelihood that the soldier was not even Jewish; it's an open secret in Israel that tens of thousands of Russian immigrants used forged papers as a means of exiting their country of birth, pretending to exercise the "right of return." So here is yet another insult to heap on those whose great-great-grandparents were born in Palestine yet are treated as if they live there only on sufferance....

.........Yet if you are a former bouncer born in former Soviet Moldova, like Avigdor Lieberman, you can come to live in the Holy Land as of right and become the leader of a party that proposes to institute a "loyalty oath" not just to the Arab citizens of the state of Israel but to all Jewish members of religious Orthodox sects that do not declare themselves Zionist. And this grotesque party, named Israel Beiteinu or "Israel Is Our Home," is now the power broker, and its leader is the kingmaker in the Israeli electoral process.

http://www.slate.com/id/2211915/

[Amomynous]

I feel sympathy for those killed, and sadness for those who kill.  I guess that makes me pretty worthless for the conversation at hand.

(And for that, I think I am grateful. Water balloons away, boys!)

Oh, and for the record I just can't take Icke seriously. He sells books by marketing blain... a pretty old business model, I guess. He lacks the introspective ability to actually say anything insightful.

[laughingwillow]

Naw, amom. Sympathy for another's point of view is the only thing that can alleviate this terrible situation, imo.

And I've been trying to straddle this fence most of my life. After learning of my native american heritage as a young child, I began to study the history of the north american conquest by the europeans and the virtual imprisonment of the first people. My grandmother's grandmother was carried as an infant from their family home in Kentucky to Oklahoma on the trail of tears. But I grew up as a white american with all the privilege that entails. (Although I was accused of being a foreign exchange student from time to time.)

SO the more we know about human qualities of those we oppose ,the more chance for reconciliation, imo.    

lw