Iraqi general killed by US

[dissident]

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=38797


Iraqi general shot dead by US troops at checkpoint west of Ramadi: police
Published: 3/15/2005
 
 
RAMADI, Iraq - The deputy commander of the Iraqi army in western Al-Anbar province was shot dead by US troops at a checkpoint Tuesday night, a police officer said.

"The US forces opened fire at 8:00 pm (1700 GMT) on Brigadier General Ismail Swayed al-Obeid, who had left his base in Baghdadi to head home," police Captain Amin al-Hitti said.

"They spotted him on the road after the curfew, which goes into effect at 6 pm," the officer said in Baghdadi, 185 kilometres (142 miles) west of the capital.

No immediate reaction was available from the US military.

US forces have struggled to build up Iraqi security forces in Al-Anbar, where the country's insurgency is at its strongest, and many police and national guard units are suspected of having been infiltrated by rebels.

[senorsalvia]

Don't forget that just the other day, the AmeriKKKans shot up that vehicle that was carrying the Italian journalist that had been held captive..  Seems like the boys are basically in a "shoot anything that moves"  mode......   My guess is that stuff like this will continue until there is enough backlash from so many directions, and the attendant loss of support from coalition members;  that the U.S. will begin ratcheting down their overall military effort and bit by bit, turn the peacekeeping duties over to others...  The U. N.  I'd guess......  Then we'll slink away, leaving the place a quagmire of unresolved problems...  We'll of course, claim absolute victory, and pat ourselves on the back for doing an outstanding job in achieving our goals and securing freedom for all.. :wink:  :roll: ....  senorsal

[TooStonedToType]

"Seems like the boys are basically in a 'shoot anything that moves' mode."
 
Ms Sgrena states the U$ may have deliberately targeted her car.  I think the "shoot anything that moves and let god sort it out" theory is more likely and what the Iraqis have been claiming the US has been doing for a long time.  

On a related note:
The White House rejected suggestions that Italy's decision to withdrawl from Iraq was due to strained relations after secret service agent Nicola Calipari was shot dead by US troops in Baghdad on 4 March.

--------------

Iraq hostage shooting probe opens
BBC.com
 
Nicola Calipari died protecting Ms Sgrena
The US military in Iraq has begun an investigation into the shooting incident last week that killed Italian intelligence agent Nicola Calipari.
US Brig Gen Peter Vangjel has been appointed to lead the inquiry, expected to take up to four weeks to complete.

The US-led coalition command added in a statement that Italian officials had been invited to take part.

US troops fired on the car transporting Mr Calipari and newly-freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena, an Italian journalist.

Military officials also said they would carry out an investigation into the death of a Bulgarian soldier, shot on the same day as Ms Sgrena in a separate incident.

Mr Calipari has become a national hero and Italy's leaders joined hundreds of fellow citizens at his funeral.

He was killed on Friday in disputed circumstances as he made the journey towards Baghdad airport with Ms Sgrena, who had been held captive for more than a month.

The US have dismissed as "absurd" Ms Sgrena's suggestion that their troops may have deliberately targeted her car.

Gen George Casey, commander of the multinational forces in Iraq, said he had no knowledge that the Italians had given advance warning that the rescue team would be taking Ms Sgrena to the airport.

"I personally do not have any indication of that, even on a preliminary basis," Gen Casey told reporters on Tuesday.

He refused to be drawn on what charges might be brought against any US soldiers involved in the shooting.

"We are working closely with the Italians on their participation in the investigation," Gen Casey said.

The US has said the vehicle carrying Ms Sgrena to the airport was "travelling at high speeds" and "refused to stop at a checkpoint".

A US patrol made several attempts to warn the driver of the car, but soldiers fired into the engine when the car failed to stop.

Italian officials have disputed the US version of events, saying the vehicle was not speeding and there were no warnings before the soldiers opened fire.

[VajraPirate]

If they're gonna shoot everything that moves maye they should start with each other. There'd be less dead foreign agents and generals, at least.

[X. Torris]

If they're gonna shoot everything that moves maye they should start with each other. There'd be less dead foreign agents and generals, at least.

That's a little fucked up.

I'm not saying it's good or that they should "shoot everything that moves."  But I think the state of mind at least understandable given the ever-present possibility of a suicide bomber rolling up.  Shit, if I was there, I'm pretty sure I'd have an itchy trigger finger.  It's a shit situation they have to deal with.

You may not like the war, but there's no denying that U.S. troops--- not to mention Iraqi civilians--- face the possibility of death and dismemberment everyday.  Blame the armchair generals and politicians for the mess, not the troops.

[dissident]

our troops? you mean these guys?

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shoo ... _2005.html

[TooStonedToType]

The dog video was disturbing.  I hope they find the soilders that did that.

"Blame the armchair generals and politicians for the mess, not the troops."

At this late date, any soilder with half a brain has to know he/she is fighting an illegal, immoral war and is participating in war crimes.  

I did get a kick out of the video of the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot while teaching gun safety in a school. And then goes to show the class some sort of automatic weopon, untill the kids start protesting.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/cop_acci ... _2005.html

[dendro]

cool video TSTT. Amazing. They had to beg the a****** to put the rifle down! And then, none of the so-called "adults" and "professionals" in the room did anything to stop the guy, do anything, remove the weapons, get an ambulance. Oh, I suppose some calls were made, but NO ONE Did Anything!!!

His helpers (and the school reps) were going to go on as if nothing had happened.

Imagine, there were loaded weapons in a "classroom demonstation"! And there were babies in that room! The room should have been evacuated immediately. Wow DEA... :shock:    :twisted:

[X. Torris]

our troops? you mean these guys?

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shoo ... _2005.html

Oh yeah.  All American troops are cruel bastards like that--- just like all Muslims are terrorists.  You've certainly cleared that up for me, thanks.

[dissident]

nah, if they were all like that I would have a ton more movies and links.  This thread, to me, is just harping on some of the 'bad apples' in the barrel.  1% spoils it for the rest of the 99%.

[GhostPipe : )]

I am with you X. Torris on supporting the troops. I never supported the war, although some here might choose to belive so. It is a total sad sitiuation to be stuck in and  shoot anything that moves after curfew is a good policy. Very true dissident the 1% spoils it for the rest of us.

GP

[VajraPirate]

It was a joke. Yes, one in poor taste, and I apologize for that. At the same time, I am suprised that anyone would think I want anyone else to suffer... at all.

I support the troops as living beings but not as soldiers. I do not wish to see them harmed.

With that said, I think it is obvious that they are more than just a little trigger happy. This is a problem that should be dealt with. With every shooting of innocent foreigners (especially those of who are well known) the acceptance of our occupation will become less and less, until our presence will no longer be tolerated. It doesn't take much to see how this would be bad for our wayward country.

[dendro]

the troops who got off on pushing civilians into the river to drown them, walked.  :twisted:

[Floyd]

Then we'll slink away, leaving the place a quagmire of unresolved problems... We'll of course, claim absolute victory, and pat ourselves on the back for doing an outstanding job in achieving our goals and securing freedom for all.

no we won't. we'll blame the liberal media for ruining our ultimate objective


This is the second god damn dog shooting incident i've seen so far. There was a frontline special where they followed a unit around for awhile and some dick doctor shot dog.

They also shot an iraqi cab driver who got stuck in the crossfire. "shit fuck" and then thye moved on. The next day one of there's got killed and it was all tears and sworn vengeance.

Dumb hick fucks. _____________________________________________________________
YOU CAN'T BE A SWEET CUCUMBER IN A VINEGAR BARREL
A Talk with Philip Zimbardo


Introduction

"When you put that set of horrendous work conditions and external factors together, it creates an evil barrel,"writes the eminent situationist psychologist Philip Zimbardo, known for his famous Stanford Prison Experiment in the early 70s.

"You could put virtually anybody in it and you're going to get this kind of evil behavior," he continued. "The Pentagon and the military say that the Abu Ghraib scandal is the result of a few bad apples in an otherwise good barrel. That's the dispositional analysis. The social psychologist in me, and the consensus among many of my colleagues in experimental social psychology, says that's the wrong analysis. It's not the bad apples, it's the bad barrels that corrupt good people. Understanding the abuses at this Iraqi prison starts with an analysis of both the situational and systematic forces operating on those soldiers working the night shift in that 'little shop of horrors.'"

About 30 years ago, Zimbardo and his colleagues began to do research on dehumanization. "What are the ways in which, instead of changing yourself and becoming the aggressor, it becomes easier to be hostile against other people by changing your psychological conception of them?". he asked. "You think of them as worthless animals. That's the killing power of stereotypes."

He connected that work the work he had done during the Stanford prison experiment. "The question there was," he says, "what happens when you put good people in an evil place? We put good, ordinary college students in a very realistic, prison-like setting in the basement of the psychology department at Stanford. We dehumanized the prisoners, gave them numbers, and took away their identity. We also deindividuated the guards, calling them Mr. Correctional Officer, putting them in khaki uniforms, and giving them silver reflecting sunglasses like in the movie Cool Hand Luke. Essentially, we translated the anonymity of Lord of the Flies into a setting where we could observe exactly what happened from moment to moment."

He found in that experiment that it is "really a study of the competition between institutional power versus the individual will to resist. The companion piece is the study by Stanley Milgram, who was my classmate at James Monroe High School in the Bronx. (Again, it is interesting that we are two situationists who came from the same neighborhood.) His study investigated the power of an individual authority: Some guy in a white lab coat tells you to continue to shock another person even though he's screaming and yelling. That's one way that evil is created as blind obedience to authority. But more often than not, somebody doesn't have to tell you to do something. You're just in a setting where you look around and everyone else is doing it. Say you're a guard and you don't want to harm the prisonersâ€"because at some level you know they're just college studentsâ€"but the two other guards on your shift are doing terrible things. They provide social models for you to follow if you are going to be a team player."

â€"JB

PHILIP ZIMBARDO is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at Stanford University. He is a founder of the National Center for the Psychology of Terrorism, and creator and co-director of The Shyness Clinic.


full essay: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/zimbard ... index.html

[domino]

i don't want to see anyone hurt.  pain sucks; both the giving and the recieving of it.  anyone who supports our troops is morally guilty.   sure they're in a shit situation.  most don't want to be there but are pretty much forced into it.  that doesn't make it right for them to be there and i damn well don't support 'em.   i don't see any difference between supporting them and giving them the ok nod.

that said, i hope they all return safely and soon.  i also hope the Iraqis are able to get ahold of themselves, stop the civil war that is raging there  and make a decent place out of what we turned into far worse a hell-hole than it was.  i want this even though it might lead some ignorant people to the belief that what we did was justified and a precedent for more of the same.

it's easy to hope voters will come to their senses.  it's hard when you suspect they never will or don't have any sense to begin with.  half the people on earth are below average intelligence.  intelligence aside a good portion of the voters are either gullible or naive.  others are just plain mean or uncaring.  any way you stack it up the tyranny of the majority is no better than tyranny by the few.  i can point to the cruel and unenlightened drug laws in many countries that have the tacit approval of the populace as evidence of this.

so what's my solution?  well, i'm going to fire up my v-8 and hit the road and the next stupid son of a bitch i see with an 'i support our troops' sticker is gonna get the shit slapped out of 'em.  

pain sucks don't it. :twisted: