Martial Arts

[jikuhchagi]

OK, I never claimed I could count... :roll:

[fuzz]

it seems that here, i find myself in the presence of 2 true Masters of Zen. i will therefore try to apply your deep lessons. i will also thank you both for showing me your deep understanding and practice of zen.

thank you for showing me that words can not lead us to the truth, that Zen's dimension of humor is exactly as jikuhchagi understands it and that only YOU can find your own answers. until now, i had no understanding of those concept yet, because as you can probably see i am still a young and uneducated student of Zen.

To see if  truly i have understood the true depth of your both comments, here, i will share with you a couple meditations i have on the various dimensions which "humor" can be viewed as, on the possibility to learn from sharing ones understandings and learnings, as well as my comprehension of the "self" versus "no self" in zen tradition (since jikuhchagi seems very keen on the YOU aspect of no self).

my comments are as follows:














....

That was a wonderful sharing, and application of your guys theories.

we should defenetely keep on sharing our experiences and understanding, with each other, as i can feel i have already learned a lot from it.  I can now see that without words, it works lots better. without words i can truly feel the depth of Zen practice and the experience of knowing that only YOU can figure it out.

Thank you both for showing me the light... once again...

[laughingwillow]

LOL Zen master? A good day for me is when I'm master of of my own bowels.

Fear and pride...

Some rise
some fall
some climb
to get to Terrapin....

lw

[senorsalvia]

{Master of my own bowels} :lol:   Mista Willa; now you just stop that sort of nonsense. ...I mean, there's countries falling apart, political chicanery, all sorts of issues to feel bad about...  and now, here you are with your tom-foolishness, making me crack a grin on an otherwise day of doldrums......  'Tis subversive...................sal

[jikuhchagi]

Wow, I guess the olive branch wasn't enough...

it seems that here, i find myself in the presence of 2 true Masters of Zen.

Actually, there are a hell of a lot more than 2 true Zen Masters here. At last count, I think it was 438, but arithmatic was never my strong point.

i will therefore try to apply your deep lessons.

best put on your hip waders first. The lessons aren't the only thing that gets awefully deep...

my comments are as follows:

Good answer, but are those comments really yours?

without words i can truly feel the depth of Zen practice and the experience of knowing that only YOU can figure it out.

Who is the 'i' that feels the depth? Who is the 'you' that can figure it out?

When you figure that out, hand me my bong, turn off the light, I don't feel like working today.

[fuzz]

<<passes bong.

figure what out?

as much entertainment as rethorics can get, i got to "wash some dishes" today, as a dude, somewhere, sometime said.
that is organize the place around here, and cook for this year's group of japanese students whom we're having over for diner.

au menu: quiches, crêpes and vine.
wweeeeehhhh!

enjoy that bong

[laughingwillow]

figure what out?

The koan that resonates from this thread.

Btw, real zen don't eat quiche...

lw

[Satori]

And, apparently, real zen doesn't laugh.

[jikuhchagi]

When you figure that out, hand me my bong, turn off the light, I don't feel like working today.

Actually, the above quote was an homage to the late, great, Jerry Garcia, towards the middle of his decline, but probably not the most appropriate place to post it... if indeed it is appropriate to quote it at all. :cry:

Actually, fuzz, I would have thought if you had read any zen, you would know that dharma combat is an accepted (if not encouraged) form of practice, just as sparring is (hopefully) for whatever the martial art is that you practice. Masters challenge each other all the time, not because they want to prove themselves better or more enlightened but to always keep themselves sharp. Shall we or shall we not?

Satori, its not that the Zen practitioners don't laugh and enjoy humor. Thats not what I meant as the master I study with is probably in the list of top ten funniest people I have ever hung out with. But thats when its social. When it gets down to things like the story Fuzz quoted, there is a real lesson there. Do you think Bodhidharma was just being flip to the emperor? Do you understand the implications of being flip to the emperor? Did you think about why he said what he said? You might as well say that Jesus was joking when he talked about passing a camel through the eye of a needle.

[fuzz]

"Shall we or shall we not?"

and i chose the second option.
if you can not see the quality in my answer:" figure what out? ", i could send your own comment right back at you: you must have not read many zen books.

as fascinating, as this all is, jikuhchagi, i am done with this oh so enlightening exchange of a few words with you.

aparently you already know all there is to know, and understand zen as the only way it is to be understood not only for yourself, but also for everyone else.  i find this approach to be not of my interest, and find it boring, hence my chosing the "not" option.
ps: as the "serious" practitioner of zen you claim to be, i found your smoking a bong hit, to be very disrespectful to many schools of zen.

to be polite, i'll leave with a space for the local troll to add his ever wise comment, thats laughingwillow:
"TROLL SPACE HERE just add words"

enjoy your wisdom and remember: "dont walk with the fool".

[Satori]

Satori, its not that the Zen practitioners don't laugh and enjoy humor. Thats not what I meant as the master I study with is probably in the list of top ten funniest people I have ever hung out with. But thats when its social. When it gets down to things like the story Fuzz quoted, there is a real lesson there. Do you think Bodhidharma was just being flip to the emperor? Do you understand the implications of being flip to the emperor? Did you think about why he said what he said? You might as well say that Jesus was joking when he talked about passing a camel through the eye of a needle.

Well, I do think the story was a humoristic story, but we will never know. I do think that some humor can be used to pass down a serious point.
As one of my favourite philosophers said (though not a zen-buddhist, but since there already has been quotes of not directly zen people, I will give it):
"The wise man has humor, but he takes humor seriously" -Søren Kierkegaard. (and he is in fact being studied very seriously by buddhist philosophers, e.g. the Kyoto School.)
Meaning that even though one can laugh at the humorous story, one can still take the point seriously. And even take the humor itself seriously.

As for the YOU and I bit. Laughing and yourself were the first ones to actually start with the whole YOU need to study and get enlightened YOURself. Fuzz just took you on the words. And if that's the case. What are you doing with a zen-master?
The question you do pose, about who is the "I" that gets enlightened, is a very good question, and has been a Shin-Buddhist critical question towards zen, for a long time. Shin-Buddhists thinks that it is weird to talk so much about self-power transcendence, and still talk about no-mind. In their philosophy enlightenment is more broken apart from the self. There it is the working of the Other-Power, and when one is enlightened, it is the Other-Power (or Amida-Buddha) that works through you.
Though, there has through the ideahistory been attempts to combine the two. E.g. Suzuki Shôsan, a japanese samurai from the late 16th early 17th century Japan. And Tanabe Hajime has alot of sympathi for Zen, but thinks it fails at truly transcending from the self-awareness into Absolute Nothingness.

As for the words bit. I will quote one of my own favourites again.
Kûkai, or post-humously, Kôbô Daishi:
"The sea of Dharma is beyond speech, but without speech it cannot be transmitted".

In the same post I wil raise a critique of the all so popular kôan practice. E.g. Zen master Dôgen thinks that a kôan might just end up in a confusing self-attaching to itself-state, and not lead to any enlightenment at all. I do believe that a critique of the kôan from that standpoint is valid, at least just so people don't attach to the kôan. Because it seems like alot already has done that. People describing it often to be the essence of Zen. Which it is not. Only some schools of Zen practises this form of meditation.

Anyway, to get back onto the topic.
I didn't really see Fuzz preach, she quoted some passages from a book she has read, and shared her opinions about that, and how psychedelics might be used in addition to martial arts. I think that is ok. Even though one has only just learned the wonders of martial arts. Had she gone on, and created her own system, and her own school, and preached a martial arts in some form of institutional way like that, it would have been different. For now I think what has been done is a good way of talking about a form of life one has just discovered. And also talk about how it goes with ones other interests in life. Even thought she doesn't say for how long she has been studying it. Just that she atm is reading this book she is quoting. So here you are just assuming, Jiku, that she is new to it.
And I would say, that a little over two years don't make you the authority to come in with a mocking post like you did.
I haven't read the book by Yoshigasaki myself, but it seems interesting. I might just pick it up one day.
Another book I have been looking through is Morihei Ueshibas book on Aikido. That's a nice book since it contains alot of pictures from Ueshibas calligraphy, and his poems, and martial arts. A very inspiring book to say the least. I look forward to read more on his view of the universe in there.

Peace out.

[laughingwillow]

Give it up, jiku-bro. This is the way most any discussion I've had with fuzz has gone. Maybe its the language barrier.....  

Anyway, it appears she is setting up her own little bully-pulpit in cyber-space, so I'm guessing she's looking to be queen of a castle where her sermons are the final word....

lw

[fuzz]

nah, notlaughingwillow. we never had any discussions really. after a couple sentences out of you, i could feel the depth of your knowledge and knew that i was no match to your great debater's talents!!
also, a "discussion" is when participants in the debate actually "exchange" ideas. you dont exchange ideas notlaughing, rather you say how it is.
Dont worry about the forum i created, i will remain here as well,just to keep learning from you. Athanor is a non spiritplants project related, as i do have other projects than spiritplants.

since you have shown that besides being the great psychic you are, you are also fluent in french, and that you are correct in that my grasp of the english language is extremely low, i will voice this out in french for you, as it will surely make this easier for you to understand. This is from my heart to you:)
t'es vraiment qu'une pauvre branlette!

your words will always be the highest, you troll in chef.
i'd never try to compete with your allmighty trollness. for you DEFINE trollness.

thank you LW, for making this world a better and more open place to learning and sharing words. Eventhough i dont know why you even paste so much bullshit LW, since according to you, words can point to no truth. But it must be my misunderstanding of your high trollness..
i will keep on studying from your greatness, oh, troll in chef!

keep trolling man....and moslty keep on sharing your amazing understanding of the world with others. it truly makes this world a much better world.

[laughingwillow]

Spend-thrift fisherman
trolling for capriciousness
in shallow waters

[jikuhchagi]

Feisty, isn't she? I like strong women.

you must have not read many zen books.

I think it was Ram Dass' guru who said, "Painted cakes do not a meal make." or something like that. I've read a LOT about a LOT of different things, but in the final analysis, I don't think reading does anything more than expose you to possibilities. It opens a bunch of doors, to be sure, but you can't walk through any of those doors by reading a book.

But come on, don't you want to play? I'll try to play nice...

as the "serious" practitioner of zen you claim to be, i found your smoking a bong hit, to be very disrespectful to many schools of zen.

Please elaborate? I only practice one form of zen, and honestly even if I did actually smoke a bong hit (its not legal where I live), there would be nothing to disrespect.

"dont walk with the fool".

What's worse, a fool who knows what he is, or a fool who doesn't realize it? I find myself in the former camp and I can't speak for LW, but what about you?

Satori,

I don't remember a whole lot from college, but Kierkegard and the other existentialists were my favorites. And the point on humor is well taken, as I did try to point out... still, that particular story to me? I still don't see the humor, but I guess I have read to much on Bodhidarma and am filled with painted cake! LOL!

and I knew the mistake of trying to even talk about enlightenment, but I had to try, as you pointed out in your quote, words can be a necessary evil (but not always). The key point I have difficulty with discerning in fuzz's posts, and am trying to communicate in my post is the concept of practice and experience. You just can't get those from a book. I study with a zen master because he coaches me on how to practice, nothing more. He is sort of like any other coach. There are drills, and such, but when game time comes around, he isn't the one doing the work.

If I really got the impression that there was anything other than copy/paste going on in Fuzz's post, I would probably have chosen a different tact all together. But obviously, it was the wrong tact to take.

There are a lot of different Buddhist perspectives, and I appreciate your survey.

Regardless of what I have or have not read, or what I have or have not experienced, I do think that a basic core tenet of any zen/buddhist whatever is practice, so I don't have any problem or see any discrepancy in pointing that out, do you? All I was doing was following the lead she had already set up: martial arts + zen. Trying to get her to spar was not necessarily disrespectful, although how I attempted to draw her into it might have been. For that I apologize.