Sitter?

[greyresq]

New to this forum obviously but I've been reading and browsing over several of the posts here along with researching on other sites gathering as much information on Salvia as I can before I decide to try it.

I notice that having a sitter is one of the recommendations while being in the realm of Salvia.  Is this totally neccesary?  From reading experiences from users I've yet to see one where someone has actually caused harm to themselves or others.  Or is this more a precautionary measure?  As I look around my living room I see the glass coffee table that undoubtedly I would put out of harms way but I'm just wondering if just sitting/laying on my sofa by myself would still have a risk factor of me getting up and walking outside in the hallway of my condo perhaps confronting someone.  

From reading some of the posts it seems like when doing Salvia you really have no knowledge of what's reality or what is not.  Unlike acid where you have the visuals but you're aware of why it's happening and you're more in control of your surroundings.

[TooStonedToType]

Its more of a precautionary measure.  As to actual injuries they are none to nill.  However, I would recommend a sitter for another aspect.  I once had a trip somewhat ruined as I had told myself, since I didn't have a sitter, that I wouldn't open the door.   In the trip I certainly should have opened the door  I was told to, but was too confused.

[Jupe]

...fair amount of people seem to trash their rooms...wandering around...I kthink they are unprepared.....if you are prepared..and know whats coming....it won't surprise you......allthoug you might be astonished  (edit)

[greyresq]

Thanks for the insight.  :wink:

[dergheist]

Smoking it.....Perhaps Yes depends on strength of leaves and the person.
QUidding or Tea.....NO you don't need one in my opinion.

[gr8ful_greg]

...fair amount of people seem to trash their rooms...wandering around...I kthink they are unprepared.....if you are prepared..and know whats coming....it won't surprise you......allthoug you might be astonished  (edit)

I agree with Jupe. I've still only been around a few times and had a modest outing. I hated smoking it though and will switch to trying it in tea form.

[mykayl]

greyresq: I've never heard about anyone using tincture or quid actually needing a sitter, but if you're smoking it, you should definitely have one around if you're using strong stuff. I didn't really need a sitter the first time I smoked it, but I smoked it with a friend, and I did act innebriated and mildly reckless.

In my strongest smoke trips {no sitter present}, I came pretty close to blacking out; the paranoia of that possibility made me find a comfy chair to sit it out, because I've done some pretty fucked up things in a blacked out state before {trust me, you don't want to have to live something like that down}. I quit smoking it for that reason, and turned to tincture; to me, anything that requires having a sitter is a waste of my time. I don't even use that method any more because it was affecting my equilibrium too much after coming down, and slowing me down in some other ways for up to a week after using it. If you have some vacation time to get over the residual effects it's okay, but from personal experience, I find that it tends to compromise some of my work performance for a week after I hit the tincture.

Smoking it is definitely something you don't want to do walking around in public, although I've walked around in public after drinking tincture and had no difficulty interacting with people {I wouldn't drive on it, though}. I agree with what you've heard about the differences between salvinorin A and LSD. LSD tends to stimulate the whole brain slowly as you're coming into the trip, but as Daniel Siebert himself has warned, smoking Salvia divinorum puts the brain on automatic and blurrs the lines between fantasy and reality, because it hits you all at once and shuts down your ego {despite what all the new age quacks say about ego-surrender, that's a bad thing; ego is what gives you self-control, which you don't want to relinquish on ANY type of drug}. Despite what some people think, it can be dangerous if you're not careful with it.

Here's something I've found to be helpful in the event that you have a bad smoke trip and start having flashbacks: drink skullcap tea for a few days. For whatever reason, it restores the equilibrium and evens out the brain chemistry. Mugwort tea is also good for neutralizing flashbacks. In Europe, people used to smoke mugwort or drink mugwort tea to ease vertigo, nausea, and emotional upsets; it works great for restoring the brain after any type of harsh entheogen use, and in itself can be mildly mind-expanding. If that's were you end up, you should read up on it a little first; both skullcap and mugwort can be hepatotoxic if used daily for a long period of time {i.e., more than two weeks straight}. A cup a day of either using 2 level tablespoons is a pretty hefty dose; 3 days of that won't hurt you if you have a healthy liver.

Just be careful, and don't listen to the hype. Everything has its consequences, no matter how harmless it might look. ESPECIALLY divinorum....

[lollipop guild]

We.............represent
the lollipop guild,
the lollipop guild,
the lollipop guild.
We represent the lollipop guiiiiiiiild
and would like to welcome you
to munchkin land!

But this greeting comes with warning
for the lack of truth we're mourning
now that crowley has come a crawling
from the hell he's forced to roam.

You see, deception has come calling-
from his mouth the lies keep falling
on the dangers of divinorium
being spread throughout our home!

This wizard's shtick is getting old;
look real close, you'll see the mould
on the retread stories that he tells
to make himself feel big.

But we all know......
big's not where It's at.
On this one fact I'll bet my hat
and you couldn't house his ego
in the broke-down superdome

Oh, we represent
the lollipop guild,
the lollipop guild,
the lollipop guild.
We represent the lollipop guiiiiiiiild
and we hate this smell of sulpher
in munchkin land.....

guild rep #9

The pure moon doctor is the sorcerer, the necromancer. Slimy and spineless, moon doctors steal to get by. They blow fetid life into old myths and sell them as cures. With hollow eye sockets, they feed on fear, lurkers on the threashold of life. Sometimes they write books. Lunar/solar: one deals in dreams, one meddles in matters; which is the ranker poison?

D Pendell

[mykayl]

I'll ignore that, and give some further insights:

Shamanism = death + entheogens + ecstatic trance used to heal.

Sorcery = death + narcotics and stimulants ("poisons") + spiritual predation to effect social change.

Tantra = death + sexual/procreative energy to attain personal wholeness and find satisfaction with one's place in the life collective.

All three Paths evolved around the same time, right after animism and totemism. Unlike the basic perceptions and coping mechanisms of animism and totemism, the 3 Paths are tools used by people who are compelled by a genetic mutation to seek tools for putting their animalistic impulses to use outside of the purely mundane arena. To a certain degree, this has been confirmed by genetic science. Shamans are the mutants who are best suited to entheogen use, Sorcerers to narcotic and stimulant use, and Tantrics to the use of sexual fetishism (complex world there; study psychology and Tantra before arguing with me on that point). All three untuitively acknowledge death (the principle of entropy) as the bottom line; death rules and facilitates all things. All three use simulation of death as a form of awakening and initiation, via totemism and the aforementioned tools as gateways for experiencing transformative death. Even Tantra has totemic correspondences, in the form of the serpent, the tiger, the owl, the ram, the bull, the stag, the bat, etc.

The interesting thing is that all three are sensitive to entheogens, but only one is suited to their use as a tool. Case in point, Salvia divinorum: in 50% of all documented cases of use, the user feels nothing when taking SD. That makes it an almost perfect tool in determining whether or not a person has this mutation that compels people to one of the 3 Paths, as normal humans are immune to the effects of salvinorin A.

In the case of the shamanically inclined, they feel no ill will towards their fellow man, and have a problem understanding why some other users report angry or homicidal thoughts (or even suicidal thoughts), or generally bad trips. At the very least, they gain a compassionate understanding of humanity and an idea of what they can do to nurture its qualities in themselves and others. Hyakitaki is a good example, from what I understand of his breakthrough account. Although he hasn't reached the spiritual ideal because of his preconceptions and lack of knowledge, he has still managed to make good use of a tool he is genetically suited to.

In the case of predatory mutants, it throws them off; they experience rage and homicidal thoughts, and generally get the disconnected, "bad trip" feeling. That explains the gun toting psycho I refer to in another thread, and to my own experiences (angry and homicidal when smoking it, feeling like a pompous devil when drinking it, getting the "drifting center" sensation, etc.). Other people report feeling agitated when socially interacting on SD. I now believe that the incident with the gun-toting youth was part of my learning process; something I had to go through to get to the bottom of the SD question.

A third group reports a stimulation of the libido. No notes on how those types react in the larger scope, but my guess is a wide array of sexual fetishisms resulting in improved or disrupted relationships.

In all three cases, the user loses their socially programmed sense of self (the ego diminishing effects of salvinorin A), and experience a stimulative awakening of their "inner animal". Whether one characterizes this as an actual animal spirit or not, it has an explanation in modern psychology: the potential shaman experiences the sense of obligation and nurturing (the superego/subconscious mind), whereas the potential sorcerer or Tantric experiences the predatory or procreative urge (the id/unconscious mind).

My own "kind" is what makes it dangerous: people who haven't figured out their true calling in life, who experience the predatory compulsions that drive people to become sorcerers as a way of coping. No tools means no way to spiritually vent, means isolative paranoia and fear at the least, or destructive social behaviors at the worst. Diminished ego + overstimulated predatory urge of the id + no cultural lense or tools for coping = self-isolating or destructive behavior caused by regression into an "animalistic" state. This is precisely what makes ANY entheogen potentially dangerous when readily available to the general public.

As for my mention of mugwort to dispell bad trip flashbacks, it contains thujone: a mild narcotic (it's been hyped to be a hallucinogen, but there's no evidence that thujone has ever made anyone hallucinate; Absinthe hallucinations come from the alcohol content rather than thujone, and from disruption of liver function caused by toxic buildup up thujone). Narcotics soothe the savage beast, and stimulants (tobacco, nicotene, etc.) increase awareness and focus. In my traditional use of them, entheogens awakened the rage in me, but I had a cultural context in which to experience it. I also knew what tools I could use to bring it under my control after awakening it. Most people like me who dabble with entheogens don't have that sort of background, ergo the potential social danger entheogens pose.

As for the suicide case, I think that came from his own denial of his inner potential; his environment and upbringing told him that predatory urges are "bad" and to be supressed at all costs, and under the ego-diminishing effects of the drug, he turned those impulses inwards out of self-hate. From pictures I've seen, I could see that he was into the gothic/heavy metal subculture; he wore band swag indicating this, so I'm pretty sure that was an attempt to express what his environment and upbringing wouldn't let him vent through spiritual means. The drug may not have made him kill himself, but the lack of information and choices that lead to his drug use did, ergo, by proximity, lack of drug regulation caused his death.

I'll say it once again: everything has it's consequences; as every dark cloud has a silver lining, so does every silver cloud have a dark lining. There is no perfect drug, and no perfect answer. Take care of yourselves before trying to take care of each other.

[Jupe]

" as normal humans are immune to the effects of salvinorin A. "

A...You make a lot of statements  without backup references....

B. Insulting the Moderator of the Forum....Sucks.....

C. You want some responses here, start by being polite.  Otherwise, go somewhere else.  thanx.

[lollipop guild]

.....In the case of predatory mutants, it throws them off; they experience rage and homicidal thoughts, and generally get the disconnected, "bad trip" feeling. That explains the gun toting psycho I refer to in another thread, and to my own experiences (angry and homicidal when smoking it, feeling like a pompous devil when drinking it, getting the "drifting center" sensation, etc.)...... I now believe that the incident with the gun-toting youth was part of my learning process; something I had to go through to get to the bottom of the SD question......My own "kind" is what makes it dangerous:...who experience the predatory compulsions that drive people to become sorcerers as a way of coping......isolative paranoia and fear at the least, or destructive social behaviors at the worst... over stimulated predatory urge...

This is prcisely what makes ANY entheogen potentially dangerous when readily available to the general public..............

The guild had deduced from the first paragraph highlighted above that the author is a potential menace to society.

The guild would also like to go on record as operating under the assumption that ingested chemicals does not the psychopath create. The poison may expose the malady but is no more guilty of causing the patients organic illness as is the good doctor diagnosing the mental illness in a western mental health clinic.

As for the second quoted paragraph concerning "entheogens being dangerous when available to the general public," the guild firmly believes that unstable people with homocidal urges pose a far greater threat to society than the availability of holy sacraments.  

The guild is compelled to report a psychopathic megalomaniac seeking followers has landed.

guild lawyer #113

[TooStonedToType]

"B. Insulting the Moderator of the Forum....Sucks..."

Yea, (s)he attempts to insult the moderator, but really, saying I'm "too stoned to type"?  

If'n he want'd to insult me (s)he'd say I was "Too Straight To Moderate".  Now that would be an insult.

[mykayl]

Jupe: I don't recall insulting the moderator anywhere in this particular thread. If you're referring to the NPR Story thread, I argued his position, tried to make some agreeable concessions after apologizing for being argumentative, and then he insulted me. It's his own fault if he felt insulted by anything I said in my closing post.

As for what I said in my last post to this thread, yeah, that's an intuitive insight based partially in some science I've read concerning how some people are compelled to certain actions by genetic mutations, how others by lack of those mutations don't do well in particular outlets (Tantricism is the specific example, if you want to look it up), and partially from my own personal experiences and observations, but I never claimed it to be anything more than that. Like I said, THERE IS NO PERFECT ANSWER. Sometimes intuition and observation go where science can't or won't take us. Sometimes you have to make a few generalizations to get through to the point.

If you want references, there's a thing called Google, and another thing called Yahoo! I'm not going to cite everything I've ever read on behavioral science and "alternative" religion when you can just as easily educate yourself.

Anyone who uses entheogens in the first place is acting on some instinctive compulsion anyways, so saying that science is the only valid map is rediculous. That's like saying you can break artistic inspiration down to a binary code. I'm sure there's plenty of times in your lifetime that you've made intuitive leaps to make an important decision about something, so don't go jumping my case. Hypothesis is 10% data, 90% intuitive speculation. If there were no hypothesizing, there would be no science, no culture, no anything but a bunch of cowardly, naked primates eating raw meat left behind by bigger predators. You can be such a person if you want; I prefer to trust my intuition in the face of dilemma.

In regards to mr. lollipop, I'm a law abiding citizen (with the exception of some past drug use), and a college educate professional. Unlike some people, I deal with my problems proactively, which according to every psychologist I've ever been to, gives me a clean slate of mental health. I may have some eccentric beliefs, but I'm not out putting a gun in anyone's face or starting rediculous flame wars. Sure, I argued with the moderator about Brett's suicide in another thread, but I'm nowhere near your level of obssessive behavior. You need to deal with your own problems before presuming that you know what mine are.

I came here and made a few helpful suggestions to greyreq, and then you two started jumping my case; if my advice to him doesn't concern you, it's none of your fucking business. I don't care what either of you think; ankle-biters can kiss my ass. As for the moderator, he can cancel my membership to this discussion group.

Greyresq, have fun figuring out how SD fits into your life; no ill will towards you. Hyakitaki, I intended no offense by using you as an example in two of my posts; I actually think you're a cool dude.

Mor ko bezdrugasa, jyzn ko drugasa (Death to the unfriendly, life to the friendly)

[Jupe]

All you have to say around here......or any other forum for that matter....is  "Its My Opinion".....everyone gets tired of being lectured at......I'm not going to even bother with arguing your points, either for or against you, yeah Google this Yahoo that.......We're not stupid around here. I'm 52 years old, got some laps around the block under my belt.you know?... Your condescension comes across fairly clearly,  so lighten up abit would ya? :roll:

[TooStonedToType]

"If you're referring to the NPR Story thread, I argued his position, tried to make some agreeable concessions after apologizing for being argumentative, and then he insulted me. It's his own fault if he felt insulted by anything I said in my closing post. "

Insulted you? The thread is still up - you should maybe read it.  I asked for a reference to your statement that Brett's suicide note mentioned salvia.  Basically all you said was you didn't care what the facts are, you have heard enough and don't care, you have formed your opinion and went off half-crazy.  

Again in this thread you get all out of joint when people ask for references to your fanciful claims.  

Jupe is correct. "Your condescension comes across fairly clearly, so lighten up abit would ya? "