Hey now,
A very generous member sent me more than a few of AJ's Diplopterys cabrerana seeds as part of a trade. I know another member here has some beautiful, year-old plants from these same seeds, though I don't know of anyone who's done any testing, so to speak.
I've already got five seedlings going, so I'd like to share the wealth. If I end up killing all of mine -- a distinct possibility -- at least someone else will have some of these interesting plants to propagate.
Be aware that these guys took their sweet time germinating -- I planted some around Thanksgiving, and just had another one come up a few days ago!
I'd prefer tades, but PM me and we'll figure something out.
Best,
Cunning Platypus
I was about to order some seed and live plants from a friend in Peru. If you still have some to offer up drop me a line and we can work something out.
Easy to distinguish d. cab seed from caapi also. The caapi seed only has one fan where the d. cab has 2. Looking good btw. :smoke:3
Are you sure these are D.c. seeds?
The reason I ask it because a friend of mine procured some of these seeds and grew them out, and (he believes, at least) they have been positively identified as D. pauciflora, not D.c. Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it's entirely possible that D. pauciflora is what is considered "chaliponga" in the Pucallpa region, but I thought this should at least be mentioned.
Hey now, Amom,
You know, I'm not absolutely certain that they are DC. People have been chasing that elusive plant for so long that I'm always skeptical when I encounter 'genuine' Diploptery seed.
These were sold as Diploptery cabrerana, and they DO look much like the seeds found in some trustworthy sources (see attachment). There are some minor differences, I think; the DC samaras in the Harvard papers appear a bit more ruffled, though this could just be the artist's rendering. They're close, that's for sure. However, you're absolutely right that they might indeed be something else entirely.
Thanks for the tip about D. pauciflora, which I will explore when I'm not rushing off to work.
Best,
Cunning Platypus
Quote from: "cunningplatypus"Thanks for the tip about D. pauciflora, which I will explore when I'm not rushing off to work.
Not much is known about it from what I can find, although it is reported (at least by Ott) to be an ayahuasca analog.
For what it's worth, my friend has bioassayed it and found it quite strong (but a disclaimer: this particular person is
extremely sensitive to plants, unlike me who is something of a hard-head, so I have at times been unable to replicate his bioassays).
I think I will have to agree with your friend anonymous and say its D. pauciflora without a doubt.
If we check the seeds sold commonly by AJ its quite obvious which Diplopterys the seed being sold is.
I have attached a side by side taxo comparision picture for you all look at. Make your own decisions :)
This like you said isn't a bad thing. I am confident if AJ says the locals use this as diplo then its most likely active. There is alot of
Diplopterys spp and just like there is many Banisteriopsis.spp that are not Banisteriopsis caapi that are active to.
Who knows, Possibly D. pauciflora could be stronger than Diplopterys cabrerana?
This said any Diplopterys spp is very hard to find outside of the amazon and will still make a fine addition to your garden and many thanks
should go to AJ in sourcing these plants to make them available for everyone :)
Saludos
Oh and hey cunningplatypus that paper on diplo.spp is a good read isn't. The synchosity seems to be effecting our libraries to my friend :)
Aloha Amom and Cas,
Excellent sleuthing work, you two! Sherlock Holmes has nothing on you. Even from a casual observer, it's apparent that these seeds are indeed D. pauciflora. Thanks for the pics, Cas; it's always helpful to have a side-by-side comparison.
As you've both mentioned, this is no way diminishes their value, as they may indeed be active to a high degree, and virtually unknown outside of very specific regions of S. America. I trust AJ's sincerity and local cultural knowledge to a high degree, and I suspect that, much like Amom's friend found out, these plants will eventually be proven magical through more bioassey.
Cas, I try my best to slog through the botanical papers (like the Harvard one mentioned above) though it's literally Greek (and Latin) to me! Still, it is an interesting read and contribuiting to the non-delinquency of majors. In other words, it's helping me learn.
If the mods don't mind, I'd like to keep this thread's title for a while, so that more people can follow this wonderful topic.
Big mahalo again guys!
Cunning Platypus
Quote from: "cunningplatypus"I try my best to slog through the botanical papers (like the Harvard one mentioned above) though it's literally Greek (and Latin) to me! Still, it is an interesting read and contribuiting to the non-delinquency of majors. In other words, it's helping me learn.
Ha tell me about it, Its the same for me. The plates alone are all you really need. I found the background to why they classify diplo differnet to bannisiperosis interesting. Basically diplo produces fruit, bani doesn't.
I also found the part about D.Mexicana not producing fruit at all quite interesting to. I remember a thread somewhere by someone living in peru (might of been shoemaker) saying how the shamans have need seen "D.C" flower or set seed. I have a sneaking suspicion that the diplo they have is indeed D.Mexicana. Makes sense to me.
If anyone's interested in digging deeper, here's a link to the Harvard botany article discussing Diplopterys and its relation to Banisteriopsis. There are some good plates, including the ones we posted above.
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ccda ... B_2006.pdf (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ccdavis/pdfs/Anderson_Davis_HPB_2006.pdf)
It is an interesting, albeit challenging read. It seems that Diplopterys was once considered a subgenera of Banisteriopsis (Pleiopterys subgenus), but is now considered a seperate genus.
There appear to be about 35 species of Diplopterys; 1 from Mexico, 1 in Costa Rica, 2 in Panama, 1 in Trinidad, and 30 in South America.
As Cas noted above, one species (D. mexicana) is known only from its type; its fruits are unknown (though suspected to have caapi-like samaras). I agree with Cas that this certainly sounds like the elusive chaliponga, since I've read often enough how no one has managed to find its seed.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, as science is not my strength. Interesting, tho!
CP
45 species amigo, That is alot :)
* Diplopterys amplectens (B.Gates) W.R.Anderson & C.Davis[3]
* Diplopterys araujei (Schwacke ex Nied.) Nied.[4]
* Diplopterys bahiana
* Diplopterys bracteosa
* Diplopterys cabrerana (Cuatrec.) B.Gates[1]
* Diplopterys cachimbensis
* Diplopterys caduciflora
* Diplopterys carvalhoi
* Diplopterys cristata
* Diplopterys cururensis
* Diplopterys cururuensis
* Diplopterys erianthera
* Diplopterys heterostyla
* Diplopterys hypericifolia
* Diplopterys includens
* Diplopterys involuta
* Diplopterys involuta var. ovata
* Diplopterys krukoffii
* Diplopterys leiocarpa
* Diplopterys longialata (Nied.) W. R. Anderson & C. Davis[5]
* Diplopterys lucida
* Diplopterys lutea
* Diplopterys marsballiana
* Diplopterys marshalliana
* Diplopterys mexicana [1]
* Diplopterys microcarpa
* Diplopterys nigrescens
* Diplopterys nutans
* Diplopterys paralias
* Diplopterys paralias var. latifolia
* Diplopterys patula
* Diplopterys pauciflora
* Diplopterys pauciflora var. latifolia
* Diplopterys peruviana
* Diplopterys platyptera
* Diplopterys populifolia
* Diplopterys pubipetala
* Diplopterys riparia
* Diplopterys rondoniensis
* Diplopterys rosea
* Diplopterys schunkei
* Diplopterys sepium
* Diplopterys spruceana
* Diplopterys uleana
* Diplopterys valvata
* Diplopterys virgultosa
* Diplopterys woytkowskii
Now it would be very cool if all of them are active wouldn't it :)
One down, forty-four to go.... :D
I have about 25 seedlings of this plant going right now. I started them at the beginning of dec and still am getting sprouts. I got around 35 sprouts but some died. Cunning, do you fert yours and do you put them under lights? I'll probably post pics in the rain forest section since this is for trades only.
Hey Stoney,
No, no ferts and under natural, indirect light. 'Course, this is Hawaii, so even in winter the sun is plenty strong. The white stuff you see in the pic at the top of this thread is Diatomaceous Earth, as I've had some trouble with fungus gnats. The gnats haven't affected any of these Diploptery seedlings, though I do think they've killed off a couple of B. caapi babies.
I know what you mean about these seeds taking a while to germinate -- I'm still getting almost weekly sprout surprises from Diplo seeds planted at the end of November! I think patience is probably the biggest virtue with these guys.
Best,
CP
I have heard bad things about ordering seeds from there and you maybe one of the few that had luck with anything bought from them.
Was dampening off a problem with your grow,common with those types of seed, chestnut compound is a good addition.
Aloha XandX,
I completely disagree with you about AJ's products - I think he's got some of the best, unique botanical products out there now. I've gotten several types of caapi seeds from AJ, as well as these Diplo seeds. All have had great germination rates.
I didn't find damping off to be any more of a problem with his seeds than with any other. I personally use a water and diluted H2O2 on many of my seeds and seedlings, and this seems to keep the fungus et al. down to a minimum. With the Diplo seeds, I'd say it's vital to use something as an anti-fungal, as they take so long to germinate.
Obviously, there is some luck of the draw with any seeds, regardless of their origin, mostly to due to timing. If your seeds are old, your germination rate is going to be low, no matter how you baby them. AJ's seeds and plants are sent straight from Peru, so that right there cuts out some lag time.
Also, understand that AJ was selling and trading seeds with folks long before he set up his website. He/they obviously have a passion for these fantastic plants; he doesn't strike me as in it just for the money.
Just my two cents, but I'd order from AJ anytime.
Best,
Cunning Platypus
hola chicos de vuelta a casa despues de unas vacaciones por la selva de mi pais....primero agradecer por las buenas palabras sobre mis productos de los miembros que confiaron en AJ siempre soy una persona que me esmero en hacer las cosas bien ya que todo entra por los ojos.... y es mas si se trata de plantas shamanicas, y tambien agradecer a las personas que no pudieron comprar mis prodcutos debido a la duda y desconfianza de mi persona... quiero aclarar que no estoy para estafar ni para engañar a nadie, soy consciente del valor que tiene ahora cada semillas, cada planta amazonica en especial la controvertida, exquisita y famosa planta DIPLOPTERYS por sus propiedades sicoaptivas fuertes que cualquier otra planta, producto a ello los que tuvieron la suerte de comprar mis semillas y crecer sus plantas lo probaran y sacaran sus conclusiones lucky friends!
dentro de muy poco estare con fotos nuevas de plantas muy interesantes para los coleccionistas mas no para lo revendedores :lol: :lol: :lol: (malean el negocio peeee!!!!) despues que voy a comer :e_sad: :e_sad: :e_sad: :wink:
que tengan buen dia amigos, los quiero mucho, saooo
sorry friends, but today I wanted to speak spanish... :cool2
ayahuasca-journey
:smoke1 :wink:
AJ, tengo semillas que son tuyas indirectamente. Tengo plantitas de ellas. Has probado la planta y como se usa? Se fuma, se come o como?
In the last post aj stands by his products and says he wants to help the collector and not the reseller. My seeds came indirectly from him and i got sprouts from them.
hello
stoney such a long time after I re-direct you .... I'm glad it's one that already has a plant Diplopterys, while there was no reason to mistrust, now seen as the seeds have spread to members of the forums, are happy, their little investment now will have more profit ..
thanks to the work and research with different botanical professional friends, shamans, Alberto and myself for the first time we show pictures of one of the varieties of Diplopterys that exists in my city (Amazon) would say that Alberto and I have very strong active properties, I usually mix it or replacing consumed chacruna in a preparation with caapi, better prepare ayahuasca with this plant is super strong, much more power than the 100% proven chacruna purge (ayahuasca), you can use the leaves and also rope ..... if you want you can also smoke, but in my personal opinion I do not feel anything when I smoke, just a nice sweet taste .... and if you want to have to eat it feel??
when I referred only to colecionista sale, my question is to pay 2 to 3 times the price of these seeds, because they profit from the benefits and wonders of nature, why not rely on a good supplier of seeds collected directly of the Amazon rainforest to exchange, give away, sell at prices far cheaper than any other market, and 100% viable and fresh, I hope my opinions will not be misunderstood and end up being expelled ... :P :P :P just want to water these wonderful plants in the world is my main project and aim for something I'm not connected to the magical world of Amazonian plants.
Have a nice day guys!!!!!
ayahuasca-journey
:bfrown: :blaugh:
I had put aside a bunch of these seeds for Cass, though he seems to have disappeared. One of you -- apologies for my crappy memory -- asked if seeds were still available, and I said no. If you're still interested (or anyone else) please drop me a PM as I'd like to give away the rest of these seeds ASAP, before they lose their viability.
I have about a dozen left.
Hey Cunningplatypus!
Wanted to hear an update with the progress of your D. Cab. babies!
Hope the summer has rewarded you with strong, growing wonders from the Amazon forests.
I get very excited when I see posts regarding new and interesting botanicals. For example, Stonehenge's post of his progress with D. Cab. is an awesome sign. He has alot of experience getting these sensitive entities to proliferate.
I think that in general, anyone who ventures to find the elusive D.C. can indeed have sucess with both obtaining a specimen (properly identified, of course) and getting it to flourish!
Thanks again for your hard work!
Val
Quote from: cunningplatypus on February 07, 2011, 02:07:25 PM
I had put aside a bunch of these seeds for Cass, though he seems to have disappeared. One of you -- apologies for my crappy memory -- asked if seeds were still available, and I said no. If you're still interested (or anyone else) please drop me a PM as I'd like to give away the rest of these seeds ASAP, before they lose their viability.
I have about a dozen left.
Hi Val,
Nice surprise to see that there's still interest in this thread! Most of my older Diplo plants were sent out to the four winds, so the ones I have now are still relatively young, perhaps six months old.
I recently moved from the islands of Hawaii to the Pacific NW, plants in tow. An entire box of plants got waylaid in the USPS for more than a month, and when it arrived, all of the plants had shed their leaves. Not a nice feeling to open a box full of bare twigs and dried, yellowed leaves! Amazing creatures that they are, though, nearly every one has since recovered, including the Diplopterys. Below are some photos of my remaining Diplopterys plants.
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.tinypic.com%2F2mcdg15.jpg&hash=034d45a3a96e600daea9089143ef2579d9395fe0)
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2F33ufhpw.jpg&hash=9499067483fe1c2abe38f5aad22fe2cae64338c7)
Also, since we're on the subject of magic plants, I've had some different Psychotrias sprout. They're still pretty young, and I'm taking AJ at his word that they're identified correctly. Unfortunately, I wasn't clever enough to photograph the seeds, though they were indeed different looking from each other.
Psychotria colorata
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.tinypic.com%2F10dwsxs.jpg&hash=e9c06cebdbd4ba5dfef8ec54bca91bc8216872a3)
Psychotria brachypoda
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F4sd441.jpg&hash=aa1ba0c84d7a77a096c5e2450b562574d8d3147c)
The p. colorata especially might have some unique effects, judging by the Internet chatter. I owe a couple of plants to a friend, but if you're interested, I'd be happy to send one or two your way before the weather gets too cold.
Hey Cunningplatypus,
Oh boy, I can just imagine your facial expressions as you opened that box of plants and witnessed the horror of twigs and stems! ALL THAT HARD WORK SPENT OBTAINING, CULTIVATING, LOVING...gone....but so nice to hear that they eventually all survived the harrowing journey home!
I heard somewhere the story of how some botanist "discovered" the Cattleya orchids waayyy back. They were used as wrapping and filler material for freight across the oceans! Incredible. He stuck one in some water, watched it spring back to life, and marveled at the wondrous blooms that arose! They were very resilient, fortunately, just like your babies! Awesome.
Regarding Psychotria's and A-J, I'm about to place an order with him for some plants and seeds. There is a variety on the website which is labeled just as "psychotria spp" and which a fellow botswapper on this site has guessed that they could be Psychotria Poeppigiana...the picture of the seeds are blue...were your P. Colorata blue?? Ever seen a P. Poeppigiana seed?? Interesting...
And yes, I'll take you up on your offer...pm sent...
Adios.
Val.
Quote from: cunningplatypus on September 16, 2011, 05:31:17 PM
Hi Val,
Nice surprise to see that there's still interest in this thread! Most of my older Diplo plants were sent out to the four winds, so the ones I have now are still relatively young, perhaps six months old.
I recently moved from the islands of Hawaii to the Pacific NW, plants in tow. An entire box of plants got waylaid in the USPS for more than a month, and when it arrived, all of the plants had shed their leaves. Not a nice feeling to open a box full of bare twigs and dried, yellowed leaves! Amazing creatures that they are, though, nearly every one has since recovered, including the Diplopterys. Below are some photos of my remaining Diplopterys plants.
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.tinypic.com%2F2mcdg15.jpg&hash=034d45a3a96e600daea9089143ef2579d9395fe0)
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2F33ufhpw.jpg&hash=9499067483fe1c2abe38f5aad22fe2cae64338c7)
Also, since we're on the subject of magic plants, I've had some different Psychotrias sprout. They're still pretty young, and I'm taking AJ at his word that they're identified correctly. Unfortunately, I wasn't clever enough to photograph the seeds, though they were indeed different looking from each other.
Psychotria colorata
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi54.tinypic.com%2F10dwsxs.jpg&hash=e9c06cebdbd4ba5dfef8ec54bca91bc8216872a3)
Psychotria brachypoda
(https://spiritplants.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F4sd441.jpg&hash=aa1ba0c84d7a77a096c5e2450b562574d8d3147c)
The p. colorata especially might have some unique effects, judging by the Internet chatter. I owe a couple of plants to a friend, but if you're interested, I'd be happy to send one or two your way before the weather gets too cold.
Irie,
So I think I've sussed out what this DC(?) really is!!!!
Alicia anisopetala (http://fm1.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/index.php?language=eng&page=view&id=29684&PHPSESSID=5aa90ffb621322340dd9fa05f69928f7&PHPSESSID=5aa90ffb621322340dd9fa05f69928f7)
The shape & shade of the leaf seems to fit as well as the seeds...
Whatcha rekkon???
If any one can translate the field notes, that may prove handy too.
Respect,
Z
Zaka, I think you're probably right. It certainly seems a lot more likely that these are Alicia anisopetala than the mysterious D. cab.
Here are a couple of other A. anisopetala image links. The second is a synonymous name, Hiraea macrocarpa:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lsa.umich.edu/herb/malpigh/Drawings/ChrCladeDraw/AliAni.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.lsa.umich.edu/herb/malpigh/ChrClade/Alicia/AliAni.html&h=533&w=380&sz=53&tbnid=NTGtP-OzroHUPM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=70&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAlicia%2Banisopetala%2Bimage%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Alicia+anisopetala+image&docid=VT5FPKmdpSIdvM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KdL1TtDfB9LUiAKmy-DPDg&ved=0CCQQ9QEwAQ&dur=645
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/herb2ic/x-mich1102199/MICH1102199.TIF?chaperone=S-HERB2IC-X-MICH1102199+MICH1102199.TIF;chaperone=S-HERB2IC-X-MICH1102199+MICH1102199.TIF;evl=full-image;quality=2;resnum=;start=;subview=detail;view=entry
In the couple of years that AJ's/Kiwiboancaya's been offering these seeds, one thing that's rattled me is trying to jive the pervasive stories (by some very trusted and wise souls, including researchers and native shamans; hell, by everyone) that D. cabrerana just doesn't set seed that anyone's ever seen. It certainly should, but no one has ever found the seeds. It seems unlikely that AJ stumbled upon the one heavily-seeding patch of D. cab known to man. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but you gotta admit, it seems far-fetched.
I'd be curious to know, from Kiwiboancaya's perspective, how this plant was originally identified. Is this plant part of local, traditional plant knowledge (known to be used in aya or other mixtures)? How did Alphonso etc. originally come to know about it?
Judging from a quick search of the Intertubes, it seems not much is known about Alicia anisopetala either.
Once again, the mysterious Diplopterys cabrerana remains elusive! The search continues...
Interesting.
One thing I note in scanning the pics of Alicia, is that the leaves of my, CP's, and Stoney's plants are much more lanceolate, they are long, narrow and pointy, while the Alicia seems to be more rounded in shape.
The seeds do look very much alike tho.
If Alicia is known as chaliponga in Kiwi's district, and is potent as a light admixture, both leaf and vine, then I am stoked. I have worked hard to plant my 5 best vines under suitable tree trellises, and they are twining up the trees nicely.
Irie,
Yeah man that's how they start out, then after they've stretched up to climb, the leaf becomes ovate.
Also found this pic of psychotria florestana (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cerrados/5002093597/in/photostream) with blue berries...
Respect,
Z
Interesting, thanks zaka. 8)
I'll be watching for the change you mention as they climb.
So far two of mine have climbed 10' off the ground up branches, and the leaves, while quite large (like, 7-9") , are all still lanceolate, with definite elongated pointy tips.
I've just read a thread: http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24583&p=199875&hilit=cabrerana#p199875 (http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24583&p=199875&hilit=cabrerana#p199875)
at aya forum showing pics of chalis, and the leaves on my chalis look just like the ones ID'd (by chaliponga dream) as Diplopterys cabrerana in that thread. They are quite large as well, 8-9".
The vines are really taking off now, fast growth is starting, more vines appearing from the bases. Soon brew...
Alright folks is this or is this not d cab? the pictures from alicia the leaves look far more oval indeed while leaves from d cab look far more narrow... FAR more so to speak.
Irie,
So mine are 2yrs+ old & now have started flowering!
Pics soon!
Respect,
Z
Excellent Zaka...time to put "Mystery" to bed. ;D
Quote from: Zaka on January 03, 2012, 06:54:15 AM
Irie,
So mine are 2yrs+ old & now have started flowering!
Pics soon!
Respect,
Z
Any flowers yet, Zaka? Pics would be great! But a description is great too.
Irie,
I got flower buds (not so many) but they are yet to open....
They seem to be a bit slower than the Caapi....which is crazy in flower!!
I'm monitoring it's progress daily, I'll post pics as soon as get some.
Respect,
Z
Irie,
My camera its giving me jip, but I have seeds and the flowers are lilac in color.
Trouble is now finding which species has lilac flowers.
I've been searching through the field notes at various herbariums and the only description I've found is this one.
Mascagnia strigulosa (http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-masc-stri-per-1883578.jpg)
Anyone else have any ideas??? Pics real soon.....
Respect,
Z
beautiful pics zaka, thanks. So those flowers and seeds formed in the second year?
The Mascagnia leaves just look so ovoid in that specimen. But the flowers and seeds do match up, yeah?
Irie,
I'm 99% sure it's Alicia anisopetala.
How's your plants doing?
Any photos?
Respect,
Z
Respect to Stoney, no photos. 8)
But my plants look just like Platty's...
Quote from: Zaka on February 19, 2012, 07:40:03 PM
Irie,
I'm 99% sure it's Alicia anisopetala.
How's your plants doing?
Any photos?
Respect,
Z
Alicia, eh?
Not even a chaliponga? Maybe, we'll see...
pic attempt
pics of ?
Irie Dendro,
It appears to be the same vine as mine....
See if the bark at the base becomes corky(?) as it matures.....
Respect,
Z
Looks like mine too but could be anything.
Irie,
Like I say 99% Alicia!
Respect,
Z
yeah zaka that's pretty convincing, especially if no other species has that type of circular ruffled samara, and the flower color matches. If it's not the one, at least it's a very close relative! I'll call it Alicia, until someone shows different.
For the amount of dried chaliponga online, why is it that none of those sources can get a plant of it?
Quote from: insomnia on March 05, 2012, 06:35:26 AM
For the amount of dried chaliponga online, why is it that none of those sources can get a plant of it?
I have a small chaliponga plant growing inside as well as the larger outdoor ones.