Valley of Shadows

[laughingwillow]

This is a topic we've touched on a time or two in a past incarnation. However, I'd like to delve a little deeper and hope some relatively new blood may help the process.

The topic at hand is considered a sacred cow by many entheo enthusiasts; proper set, setting and intent. We've all had it drilled int our heads until it has become a sub-cultural mantra of sorts. Lets face it, most everyone wants a good trip. And when discussing an entheo experience gone awry, the first probing questions usually deal with set and setting of the "victim" fo the bad trip. This often leads to comments concerning the possible lack of respect for the sacrament in question and subsequent "punishment" by the plant spirit.

It is my hypothesis that entheogenic experiences commonly deemed bad are vital to personal growth. Furthermore, attempts to maintain a positive control of the experience, in this model, would ultimately be counter-productive to progressing along the entheogenic path.

Oops. Time to go to work.

lw

[Bushpig]

Indeed LW, I've thought about this myself.  I try my best to give a good set and setting.  This is done for several reasons...personal safety and the 'want' for a 'good trip' ( as you say ) and also out of respect.  None of this is fail safe, the reson why...entheogens in regards to personal growth and spiritual exploration are not purely 'hedonistic'  To really grow involves a hell of alot of fighting...infact a life times struggle for a warrior on the path.  
   I think just because set and setting doesn't always lead to an enjoyable experience doesn't mean it should be abandoned.  It's like a mark of respect, the marking of a ritual, a tool for focusing oneself....stepping into a sacred space i guess.  Bad trips could well be the best,...in the understanding they lead us to.




Booooosh

[laughingwillow]

Hey, bush..

I agree set and setting can't be discounted. But I do believe that we fail to get the most out of the components due to our "western" perspective. The sacred cow being examined in this case would be the concept of what constitutes a "good" or "bad" trip.

Maybe we could start by defining bad trip...... I'd call it any intense entheogenic experience, usually involving fear or anxiety, that a person does not wish to repeat.

Time to pick up the rough-necks.

lw

[Anonymous]

(dendro steps out of "Wayback Machine)

In my experience in Laguna Beach in the sixties, any trip that included dropping dead at the beginning, and gasping awake later, was considered a good trip, regardless of the content.

OTOH, any trip which did not include death and rebirth was considered a bad trip, again regardless of content.

And yet, I can't deny I sometimes experienced wonderful and meaningful times without "getting fully off".  Life itself is an entheogen, and Life is good.

Awareness of divine presence always has highest value, in my mind. No matter how it is recognized. The opposite would be delusional thinking, even if it occurs during reentry from Clear Light.

Light is where (and how) you find it. The other day, I heard the mynahs call out, "pay attention", and "wake up". Buddhas on the wing...

But yeah LW that is a good working definition of bad trip.  

[laughingwillow]

Thanks for the input, den.

And I agree with you 100%. Now.

However, that's not how it started off for me. Control was the name of the game in the beginning. I had to work my way up from fearing the concept of death/rebirth to accepting it and now to craving the experience. But I had to be prodded.  

And I'm guessing cultures with rich, entheogenic traditions would be more understanding of the process of self-discovery as it pertains ot the topic at hand than the land in which we currently find ourselves.

lw

[VajraPirate]

Scary trips can sometimes be even more full of insight than the more pleasant ones. I might define it as a bad experience at the time but after a few days of meditating on it I find I have learned more about myself than usual.

It's like being pulled out of a pit of muck.

[Amomynous]

Yes, I think we cannot equate 'bad trip" and "difficult trip."

Bad trip = no growth.  Difficult trip = just what the name implies.

[laughingwillow]

Hey, amom. Thanks for the input. Sounds logical.

Unfortunately,that distinction/definition isn't commonly held in our culture, imo.

This sort of reminds me of some things we learned in a linguistics class. Different cultures have evolved specific language characteristics based on their surroundings. For example, eskimos are said to have at least 22 words for discribing snow. Its an intimate facet of their life. Subtle differences expressed.

I imagine its the same with some cultures that have sustained entheogenic practices throuhg the ages. I would expect a certain nuance that we lack.

Its that time again.

lw

[X. Torris]

Yes, I think we cannot equate 'bad trip" and "difficult trip."

Bad trip = no growth. Difficult trip = just what the name implies.

I agree, although I would suggest the two terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive.   I am aware of experiences (not necessarily my own) where an individual is so mentally (sometimes physically!) paralyzed and so assaulted with intensity or negativity, that it is difficult if not impossible to make sense enough of it to benefit--- even after a long time of reflection.

One particular instance that comes immediately to mind was a good friend-- seasoned, responsible and serious --- who ingested a modest dose of a common and well-loved entheogen, one with which he was well familiar.  

After an half-hour of a overtly difficult and intense come-up, he spent the duration of his trip (many hours) hiding under his bed.  Initial attempts to communicate with or extract my friend were futile, so he was largely left alone, only periodically checked on.  He was pretty much continually screaming or crying or gibbering incoherently and pretty much appeared to be utterly unaware of consensus physical reality.  He was very clearly having a "bad trip".  He eventually fell asleep (fell unconscious?) under his bed--- when we were satisfied that he was in fact still breathing, he was left to sleep it off.

He woke us up early the next morning, apparently sober but a little agitated because he apparently remembered NOTHING whatever of his harrowing trip.  He claimed his last memory of the prior evening was sitting on his couch, feeling a little worried that he was feeling so much from such a small dose.  We were incredulous when we described to him in detail his "fun" the night before and he claimed to have no memory of it.  He originally appeared to be quite disturbed at the rather significant gap in his memory (significant in both duration and quality), but eventually seemed to adopt a philosophical attitude of "it was probably meant to happen."  This guy isn't prone to lying or exagerration, so I'm inclined to believe it.  We like to rib him about it every now and then.  

Maybe the "growth" might come if something occurs to break through the amnesia to trigger a recovery of his memories of the experience.  But I'm of the thinking that his brain redacted those memories for good reason.    I guess he learned that this particular substance was not for him, for he has declined to seek its wisdom ever again after his trial.  So I suppose that might be considered "growth".  

I guess the suggested definitions depend on the meaning of "growth" achieved.  It's obviously a subjective term, but I'd be curious to know what people here consider to be the lower limit of what could be taken away from a journey and be still called "growth".

X. Torris

[typonaut]

Maybe survival?

[X. Torris]

Maybe survival?

Word.  Then it's not a "bad" trip as long as you're alive at the end of the experience?  

edit: oops.  typo

[dendro]

"and now to craving the experience."

hmmm, yeh I see your point  

[visionarybear]

hmmmm... i find its all in the interpretation, you might be scared of something or cry your eyes out, but i find entheogens can help you work through whatever triggered the reaction,feeling at the end better for it. a good tripper will be in a situation where they can take a corner and try to intraspect to find the cause or just to deal w/ the situation, a bad tripper will write it off at the onset as a bad time and thus make the situation woprse fighting the emotions...at the end of the day i find its how you feel about the entire experience when its over...

ut this comes froma a opoint where there has never been anything i cant hadle but by no means has it been all perma grins and giggles..

i do agree bad trip isnt a difficult trip, to me a bad trip doesnt exist unless the outcome is damaging to the individual..

lotsa idealism here...

[domino]

Bad trips can be good.  Good trips can be bad.  It is true that difficult trips can catalyze growth but the line is fine between medicine and poison.  It is kind of like taking a canoe trip in the wilderness.  It is worth it and should be approached with a positive heart.  Just like mountain climbing there is inherent danger and apprehension.  One should prepare.  Strangely enough tripping itself is a preparatory experience.

The worst trip i ever had left me doubting that i can ever trip again.  The return was long and agonizing.  It was not a chemically induced trip unless it was induced by trips i'd had years before.  Maybe it was some kind of nervous breakdown caused by self doubt and anxiety; but the meat of the matter is this:

Heaven and hell can be deeply intertwined.  I would never go back and change what i went through.  The depth and pain of the experience led me to a direct experience of God.   That is enough for me.

[strider]

Good-Bad, whats with that ? Can't say I eat from that tree, nor that I would stand in any kind of judgment.

Perhaps "interesting" may fit .
It appears through personal experience, that you manifest what you take into your experience. Like Astral traveling, it's the last few thoughts that really need to be controlled or you could end up in a place of your own creating. :shock: