the life and death of dimitri

[senorsalvia]

amazing space, how sweet the sound...

 :.

  "But you could be anything you want!" the teachers and counselors would wail.  "I am," I'd answer.
...

Bravo my brudda, Bravo       That little quip is one of the most content laden, profound pronouncements I've had the pleasure to read in a long time.....    Good to see the long road to disfuntion junction is intersected by illumination alley-------------- sal

[judih]

Good to see the long road to disfuntion junction is intersected by illumination alley-------------- sal

i think we're starting a one of a kind quote thread.
What a trip to collect all the amazing quotes in these spf posts and put together a collage. (putting this one on my To Do shelf)

[space]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Quote:
Good to see the long road to disfuntion junction is intersected by illumination alley-------------- sal
 
 

I went down to the crossroads,
fell down on my knees...

[laughingwillow]

I'm thinking it may be time for you to pull up a thread and spin us a tale or two, uncle spacey........

lw

[laughingwillow]

I've been pondering over the tibetan book of the dead as of late.

A few details I've gleaned would include the fact that the author's appear to view all sentient as equal in the bardo, but make distinctions as to heiarchy during incarnations on the physical plane. For example, a soul wandering the bardo after death is capable of reaching buddha-hood or being born as a snail, depending on one's inclinations to cling or let go. And birth into a body other than human appears to have a negative or lower conotation....

Detachment from earthly desires is stressed, but isn't that really just one more desire?

Rising above the karmic wheel of birth and death seems to be the goal. But what happens then? Personal suffering ceases? Is joy and happiness thrown out the window as well? Love is stressed, but what is love without its opposite?

What about the fact that at least one translation claims that there are better and worse places on earth to become incarnate, depending on the level of "dharma" found in a given society?

In the bardo, the thought which appears to have the greatest weight is the most recent. Apparently, a soul can wonder for weeks, not recognizing or maybe even fearing the bright lights of inner illumination and still end up transcending the karma of birth and death with a last second realization. On the other hand, it was laid out quite clearly that an enlightened soul which recognizes and embraces the intense visions of enlightment can end up reincarnating as a lower life form on earth if their very last thoughts before "sainthood" involve personal longing or attachment.  

Is life on earth really so bad as to be avoided if possible?

lw

[fuzz]

i like your questionings of things laughingwillow.



i been reading a bit of the tibetan book as well lately. rereading parts really. its like picking up old comics which havent been read for a while.
all i get left with, as with any books that tell me the so called Great Truth, is only a sense of paradox, and utter meaninglessness.
sometimes its been nice to have someone around who has studied those subject matters more than i have. then i can ask my silly questions, and usually do get some form of answer. yet, if i pander those very answers, i usually find yet new paradoxes in the answers. sometimes the answers help a bit, and sometimes even make sense and gives me a sense of progression in my own process.
sometimes i am told that i am the one creating paradoxes, because i attach myself to those questions/answers. so, i guess i am supposed to just take knowledge in, and say "YES, this is IT", i agree 100%, well, i cant, eventhough sometimes i can agree 100%.

i am left with thinking that most of those belief systems, are just lost in words. as if words were another form of labyrinth in which we so easily get lost in. sometimes we even call this "answers".

i like your question: is life so bad on earth?
-how do we know what life is like as other life forms? wouldnt another life form just do its life thing, as humans also do their life things, pondering things to which they propably could never get a straight answer, speaking gibberish, hanging out, making art, working, feeding, farting and burping and basically being humans?
-the buddha supposedly said "there is nothing to talk about", yet went around teaching stuff?
-i agree with your question of : isnt non attachement a form of attachement? i'd ask, isnt a monk attached to his monkhood identity? in my eyes, a monk hasent given away any so called ego, simply created a monk ego.

i should write a list of paradoxes i found.
such as :
they say that when you get rid of all "karma", you get cut from the wheel of birth, final liberation so they call it. but how do they know?
as far as i can tell, no one''s ever died and come back, therefore all the talks of whats up after life have to be mere fictions.
what if we loose all so called "bad karma", what if we get born in a even more horrible place, or just start it all over, like a retart button?

its like the self help stuff..we're supposed to find our "self" (which in many traditions doesnt even exist as such, making the search for a self a dillusional lie anyhows). of course, once you find your "self" its usually some fluffy happy form of self, all loving and all marschmallows, or at least accepting of life's weirdness.
but, what if i find my "self" and figure out i am moron? but that case is  never talked about, which makes me think its more wishfull thinking.
WOUPS; this doesnt have anything to do with the book of the dead. GAH!!!!!!
oh well:shock:

perhaps the TBOTD (tibet book o dead), is only one part of a whole big system, and perhaps answers are to be gotten by reading more books of that type.
um......
on to last thought, do i get reborn into a banana if my last thought before death is of a banana because as i was walking down the street, seing a nice sky, i look up, admire the clouds formation, slip on a banana peel, and think "god damned stupid banana peel" as i rubb my ass cause it hurts from the fall, and a truck runs over me?

anyhows. good ponderings...
fun fun!!!!!

 

[laughingwillow]

Yeah, fuzz!

Thanks for adding fuel to the fire.

Btw, I like the effect of seeing the top pic before reading the analogy at the end of your post, bro. Had me scratching me head for a few paragraphs, and I like that.

lw

[VajraPirate]

as far as i can tell, no one''s ever died and come back, therefore all the talks of whats up after life have to be mere fictions.

In the Tibetan tradition of the teachings of the buddhas, nothing could be further from the truth, if you beleive their teachings, which I happen to. The same person in the same body never comes back... no, but the same being in another form (body, teaching, visulaisation, etc.) comes back time and time again. In those cases the reason for returning is not because of clinging to worldly things, but because of said being's purpose, which is to ease the suffering of all sentients in this world. They do not simply think "oh, I'd like to return to life now, do some good, die again, come back again..." It's not a choice for these people, it's the only thing that can happen to them.

Words are a mere means of conveyance for the teaching. They (words) are not the most common method of conveying the teaching. They only serve to help guide one along the path to understanding. Direct Transmission is the wave of the future for tantric teachings in the west, IMHO.

If you think life on earth isn't that bad, look around for awhile... You might be surprised. Granted life on earth isn't complete shit for a lot of us, but for the majority of people it's barely endurable. Buddha did not say that all life is "suffering" he said, instead that it is "difficult to bear"

Poor translation causes people to think that he stated the former, making the first noble truth seem somewhat nihlistic, rather than simply honest.

Buddha wasn't just conversing, he was teaching. As far as the experience of understanding goes, there IS nothing to talk about. Talking about it would only muck it up with ideas, which are insubstantial. The only thing of true substance is the teaching itself and the experience thereof, the two cannot be seperated... They are the same thing.

Detachment should not be considered a form of attachment unless one is attached to the concept of detachment, which is obviously not detachment in and of itself.

Monks are monks, human beings... they still have attachment, or else they would be considered teachers rather than students, which is essentially what a monk is. But that is not to say that all teachers are without attachment or that all monks are still completely attached.

but, what if i find my "self" and figure out i am moron?

Hehe, I did that once... Never really got over it. :lol:

You're already a banana, fuzz. No one informed you of this?


The bardo thodol isn't so much of a book of teachings as it a book of funeral rites, and should be read as such, I beleive. A lot of the confusion here is because of a lack of understanding of the tibetan concept of death, which is so different from our own, in the west, that it makes it very difficult for us to wrap our minds around. I can barely fathom it myself and I've been studying it (sometimes off and on) for over a decade now. Progress is slow, sometimes, for me.

~Banana Man.

[Finbar]

TBotD...one will not find tha answerz inna book.

It is easy to be a holy man at tha top ofa mountain.

Fin

[laughingwillow]

Thanks for the clear response, varj. And I agree for the most part.

But let's talk about pain and suffering a little more......

All humans suffer, imo. ANd its been that way since the beginning of time. However, comparing one person's situation to another's is mostly futile, imo. For it is only self-perception that really matters, imo. An example would be the natives who walked this land before it became the U$ of A. They were seen as godless heathen who would be infinitely better off by assimilating into the popular culture. It has been written that the forced relocation of many of the formerly great tribes of the east in the late 1860's was named the Trail of Tears due to the white populations reaction to seeing the proud people stumbling along the road in forced marches. In other words, it wasn't the "Indians" who were crying.

We all suffer and we all feel joy. The measure of each being largely determined by an inner disposition and less by external circumstances, imo.

I also view the TBotD less as funerary rites and more of a guide through the bardo.

lw

[VajraPirate]

I never would have guessed that it was the settlers crying...

And you're right, all people suffer. It doesn't matter how much money, love or prestige a person may have they will still suffer. We all do.

I think the inner disposition that effects how much suffering/joy a person feels is largely dependent upon what that person has done with their life, or previous lives... We make our own fate, if I'm unhappy it's my own fault because of how I choose to view the world and my experience of it.

Jesus may save, buddha may heal, but it's up to each of us to heal and save ourselves. If you want to use jesus or buddha as conduits towards spiritual health or salvation, then more power to ya! But enlightened beings and ressurrected prophets aren't going to do the work for us...

I also view the TBotD less as funerary rites and more of a guide through the bardo.

And thank you for clearing that up even further! In the sense that TBD is a guide through the bardo of death (important to note that there are more than just one bardo represented in TBD) it IS a book of teachings. But clearer teachings can be found in other texts for the bardo of life.

I think it is important for people to realize that gaining an understanding of the Tibetan teachings solely from the TBD would prove to be both difficult and confusing. It is a very cryptic manual for death and dying. Clearer more simple manuals for living can be found.

For anyone interested in pursuing the tachings of Tibet I highly reccomend reading Dzogchen - the Self Perfected State, by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. It is an excellent read and expresses the heart of the teachings as well as any text can. Truly a must read for those interested in understanding this particular spiritual path.

[laughingwillow]

Right on, varj.

I really like the direction of this thread. Sort of like a Dead song being created as the boyz play. Never know what we're going to get in the end...

And I really enjoy posts that give me something to chew on for a few hours or days before replying. That said....

I have a tough time imagining any reader beginning an education about buddha through the Book of da Dead. While I'm guessing most of us have read through many books on buddhist teachings, I do appreciate your recommended reading and will get to it as soon as possible.

I also see TBD as a reflection of a guide to living. There is no such thing as death, according to what I've read of Tibetan teachings. However, if reincarnation is a biological fact, then all sentient beings participate, regardless of faith.

Bringing the conversation back full circle, the text of the TBD seems to have more meaning to me when examined in the context of a smoked dmt experience and all the lessons that entails. I see many similarities, including the role of fear and the fact that demons experienced in both states are products of one's own mind. Sound also plays an important  role in both scenarios. Calming one's mind is central to both experiences.

Also, I see the Buddhist masters' reincarnation to help ease suffering in the world as a natural reaction by a person of any faith who reaches a point of enlightenment. I believe there may be many routes to the same destination. But there are few road maps aiding in the transversion of the non-physical plane

lw.

[space]

It is difficult to sort out the teaching of the Buddha from the teaching of Buddishm.  Like Judaic prophets, the Buddha concerned himself with the here and now, the right way of living, not the world to come.  

If you consult Buddhist doctrine, then you find that the core of the matter is that life is suffering; suffering is infinite, for no matter how bad things are, we can always imagine some way in which they could be worse--have you lost everything?  Well, what if you had had more?  

I love this world, and though Buddhism comes closest for me to a Way, like lw I've always balked at the characterization of life as something to be escaped.  With all the pangs and sorrow it entails, life is so sweet.

Still, it is useful to keep in mind the historical context of Buddhism.  It arose in the world of Hindu castes, when the many "common peple" were born into an inferior status that could not be shed.  In that sense, it is a revolutionary creed similar to the rise of Christianity in the milieu of Roman rule and Pharisee collaboration:  both were transcendant responses to a grim reality.

V. has a good point about how life is for most people on this Earth.  I traveled through many "Third World" countries in the 70s and 80s--compared to the grinding life 90% of humans experience, even the poorest American is wealthy.  It is a perspective difficult to attain without direct witness.  

Both Buddhism and Christianity have suffered the accretion of ecclesiastical authority after a radical beginning:  the Buddhist temples in China became political power centers that even the emperors had to contend with--Buddhist monks helped topple the S. Vietnamese government; Christianity at its origin was a radical faith of direct testimony of sacred experience, but within three centuries it had become co-opted by the Roman Empire, and individuals were forbidden to speak of direct experience of the divine.

For me, the Book of the Dead contains an essential insight:  that one's consciousness at the moment of biological death is of paramount importance.  Christianity and the other faiths "of the Book" teach the same, putting great emphasis on death-bed confessions and conversions.  

Like a coral reef, that central insight has had many layers of orthodoxy and doctrine layered upon it, but the insight remains...when you die, pay close attention:  it matters.

Speaking of suffering, consider the Book of Job, which I think is one of the most brilliant books in the Bible.  God, in response to Satan's dare, visits terrible tragedies upon Job's family.  Job's faith is unshaken.  Satan says, sure, you haven't really hurt him--reach out and touch his person.  Eventually, Job sits on a dung heap, tearing out his hair, covered in boils, all his children slaughtered, all his herds destroyed.  His wife tells him to curse God and die.  His neighbors stop by to suggest he must have done something to deserve his fate;  he refutes them, in a haunting passage that describes the state of the world: the good suffer, the evil prosper, there is no justice.  Then he cries out for God to justify what has been done to him and God appears in a great roaring whirlwind to ask, Where were you when I put the stars in the sky?  Who are you, little man, to challenge me?  Job is overwhelmed and prostrates himself...but God also says that Job has spoken the truth of things, and that Job's neighbors fall short in their understanding.  All is restored to Job.  And yet...

The good suffer.  The evil prosper.  We can be filled with a sense of the sacredness of all things, but that does not erase what we know about suffering.  To me, this is not the Noble Truth--it is the Great Mystery.  

The balance we can achieve is via a greater apprehension of the beautiful and the sacred:  we cannot escape the vale of tears and sorrow, but we can realize the beautiful and transcendant.  That is my understanding of the essence of the Book of the Dead.

Further, I deponeth not

[judih]

It's the mystery and the wonder of it all.

How swells the moment when i hurt or agonize over dilemnas, yet how miniscule the importance on the road of all earth's history.

The Book of Job is the greatest dramatization of perspective i've ever read, but it also brings to mind the traditional Jewish tale of the houseowner mourning the size of his home.

Oh Lord! How can I live in such a place! It's so small, my wife and children are falling on top of one another! How can I live here even one more day?

With that, he went outside, leaving his door ajar. In walked his sheep, his hens, his cows and his goats. Turkeys and geese padded in. Dogs and stray cats found their way inside.

The houseowner came back to his door at nightfall and found he could barely squeeze in past the doorpost.

Oh, Lord! Now what? My small house is now so filled with creatures, I can hardly move! What to do?

With that, the animals started to file out - the goats, dogs, cats. The sheep, hens and the cows. The geese and the turkeys followed suit.

Oh, Lord! Thank you! My house has grown in size. Blessed art Thou!

.....(i mean, first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is)

.judih

[laughingwillow]

Right on, judih!

Tstt and I have had a similar discussion concerning the way tiny changes in perceptions can drastically alter one's beliefs/actions.

lw