Sale of Pealed Cacti Skins = ALL TRICHOCEREUS Sp. ILLEGAL

[laughingwillow]

LOL Right on, tstt.

I really don't grasp the moral high ground claimed by the injured elitists represented by flip and company. Trust me, the general public won't know the difference between an ornamental of the trich family and most other columnar cactus. Your markets will still be there if there is a scheduling of the alkoloid containing plants in question.

Me thinks thou doth protest way too much, dudes.  

Btw, I lied above when stating that I would no longer participate in this thread.  So sue me. I think you'll have a way better case against me than in the call for litigation above.

lw

[CJ]

Some of the arguements are good,but i love when PPl.,or a person ,is on a mission. The words get larger(much larger,and you better know percise meanings!), and the discussions more convoluted,w/barely concealed threat tactics in the background. 'Were going to do this. That is going to happen,wait an` see!'

     Sounds like we are swallowing our own tail.

     My own position is in the first half of this arguement... that it shouldn`t of occured. And yes,I find the reasoning akin to something that does not appeal to human nature, Lw`s observation ,I beleive.

     And now,someone else wants to be the law...

[laughingwillow]

Good points, cj.

Now that the subject has been broached......

I guess the part whefolks starts getting scary to me is when members of this community? threaten to get the law involved in such a convuluted issue. Their faliure to see their own part in the situation at hand leaves me with the distinct impression of dealing with peeps who consider themselves above the general community. Big egos and reality don't often mix well, imo. As tstt pointed out above, these guys have no legal leg on which to stand. And that leaves me wondering to just what extent these folks are willing to use the law to get back at peeps who feel disinclined to join them on their mission of tilting against windmills.........

lw

[EA-1306]

LW, I am not flip, nor do I represent the same interests as he.

However I am a concerned person, who also keeps an open mind.
Your negativity doesn't really add a lot, and your reasoning doesn't seem to be more than self interest. I could care less what you think of my position, but I don't think you appreciate the possibilities, nor the veracity of those who do pose a legitimate threat.

BTW that favorite grower is a friend, you have friend don't you LW? Nothing wrong with that, despite your insinuations.

While I have concern as motivation, what is your agenda here LW, just to seem bright by arguing? What are you contributing or considering with your closed minded adversity? I could care less if you post on in this thread or not, I don't see your position  as well thought out or coming from experience. To cast those who have thought about this, and have experience as elitists with an agenda seems not only shallow, but based entirely in naivety.

I am curious what are you trying to prove, you don't like advice? Big deal, you don't have to follow it.
You don't care if the law changes and people are criminalized further? You don't understand how certain kinds of attention, such as that received by Lophophora can exacerbate the situations problems and lead to eradication?  

Perhaps you should try reasoning about your complaints of advice, instead of just whining how you don't like it and attacking those who give the advice instead of trying to provide an intelligent reason and explanation of why the advice is flawed.

Hypothetically speaking what if you are wrong about the inability of these species to be scheduled? You think it is not possible? Why because they are widespread? That’s silly they are not so hard to identify and having a bit of concern instead of closed minded cold heartedness is what I would expect from someone who claims to care about gods laws.

[laughingwillow]

EA: I just tried reading your above post (twice)........

My motivation is cognitive liberty. That, I value above all else. And I think you will find there are not a lot of "followers" on this board.

I have no doubt the powers-who-be will eventually schedule pedro and allies.  But I refuse to let that concern me to the point of giving up my religion, which is based on a relationship with god through active sacrament.

This scheduling controversy isn't a black and white issue, EA. And its certainly not as simplistic as the author of this thread has insinuated. To profess certainty toward a course of action for an entire community is simplistic and egotistical, imo.

Rest assured I won't confuse your position with that of flip, EA. But I continue to see personal attacks directed toward me from you. I'd prefer you to argue a position rather than have to wade through the blather you've posted from time to time in this thread.

Btw, I've never bought or sold pedro chips. That's not the point.  

Adding another layer of management by those professing to know what's best for the community, is the issue at hand. Cognitive liberty.

I'm guessing your favorite pedro grower can take care of himself. At least if he's one of my favorite growers, too.

lw

[EA-1306]

Ok so I think we might call a truce on a certain level, and agree to disagree. We both have cognitive freedom in mind, but obviously think differently.

I think we agree about a lot actually.

[laughingwillow]

LOL Yeah, we're getting close, EA. However cognitive liberty, to me, is individual freedom to choose. You seem to believe in the ability/desirability of a faction to choose for the individual.

And honestly, everything I said in the last post is nothing more than repeating what I have said earlier.

lw

[EA-1306]

To me cognitive freedom also relates to an ability to choose, which is greatly hindered when things become unavailable. As you said the situation is not so black and white.

 Sharing advice is not choosing the course of action for others, but your telling people they should not share advice certainly is.

[laughingwillow]

EA: That is so much bullshit. Stick to the thread if you can, man.

Or at least show me your credentials as to why we should listen to you over any other assshole who comes around claiming to have the answers.

lw

[TooStonedToType]

"Sharing advice is not choosing the course of action for others, but your telling people they should not share advice certainly is."

I didn't see LW telling people they shouldn't share advice. Taken as a whole, what I see is  statements at first suggesting people refrain from purchasing such products, then suggesting vendors refrain from selling them, to threats of lawsuits (silly as they may be).  In other words - force.  That's policing - not advice. Flip, "lets please stop arguing and move on to FIXING and PREVENTING the actions of a few from adversely affecting the many."  This is not a war on drugs, it is a war on cognitive liberty.  I think that is the issue here - but this thread is hard to follow.

[EA-1306]

1 I am not flip and I did not tell people what to do.
2 LW did say that advice was unwelcome.
 and third

Or at least show me your credentials as to why we should listen to you over any other assshole who comes around claiming to have the answers.

Doesn't this mean you should show some credentials?

Look at your hypocrisy LW your posts as off topic as anyone here. Your as much of an asshole as anyone here too. You lack credentials as much as anyone here. And your posts in this thread  are as no less bullshit nor riddled with personal attacks than anyone else's.

I didn't see LW telling people they shouldn't share advice... this thread is hard to follow.

That latter part explains the former.

[space]

First off, I'd like to humbly submit that the arguments concerning elitism are something of a red herring. All the word means is that one feels that one is in some kind of privileged position, be it moral, intellectual, or otherwise. As such, I think that everyone here -- to a greater or lesser degree -- is something of an elitist. I mean, let me see a show of hands from those who don't believe that they know better than John Q. Man-on-the-street when it comes to entheogenic practice. Anyone?

Thought as much  

Mmmph...but... mmmmph

Okay, consider my vow of silence shattered, golden shards scattered on the floor...I think I have a god in this fight.

Amomynous, I admire your skill in pointing out that more is shared than contested in this thread, but your claim that the question of elitism is a red herring is a straw minnow (yes, I worked hard for that rhetorical turn, thank you).  

A common interest is shared; all parties want to do the right thing; that does not mean all parties want the same thing, or that all that is wanted is right.  

Elitism is not merely a matter of belief or feeling, any more than Communism or Capitalism are; rather, each is an amalgam of philosophy and action.  Elitism fully defined requires that the belief in superiority seek and/or gain the power to practice leadership or rule based on that superiority.

Yes, I believe I

know better than John Q. Man-on-the-street when it comes to entheogenic practice.

That is an opinion on my part, one I can bolster with strong evidence.

But I do not seek to impose my superior knowledge and practices  on others.  

Here we have a situation where authors, vendors, celebrants, discussions, et alia have raised an obscure entheogen above the radar horizon; it took many people many years performing many actions to do that.  One (this one) is loathe to listen to participants in that complex process suddenly declaim, "Enough!  You folks there, drawing all the attention!  Cut it out!"  

The bale might like to blame the straw for its heightened odds of breaking the camel's back, but I've yet to hear the bales volunteering to hop off.

[EA-1306]

It is still rather obscure, though the thing that put it on the DEA map as far as  quantitative and qualitative data is the sale of the dried prepared material. there is a reason why there has not been a publication of specific potency of these cacti since 1978. And despite the discussion and books, there still has not been.

The single greatest threat thus far to the legal status of these plants is the increasing and unnecessary sale of dried prepared material that one can order with a credit card online.

[flip]

EA-1306 and I are not the same person.
Nor, have I knowingly discussed with EA-1306
via PM/Em any other method regarding this thread subject.
So please lets put that to rest.
What I say as "flip" comes from "flip".
EA simply agrees with some of the things I've said.

<- This is my icon, (notice the cacti over the heart of the saint).



I've tried to make the points simple and clear (despite my wordiness and elaboration)
Yes there is a difference in the opinion here of  "just what is the right thing"
and that has to do with personal perspective or rather in some cases, personal deception.
There are those people in the world that actually enjoy being rebels for the childish sake of rebellion
to set themselves up a identity for themselves as valiant martyrs.
to the extent that their blinded to the real issues at hand.
and only think of themselves.

I've had the charge of Elitism leveled against me
Fine, Great, THANKS... I wouldn't be able to have that charge thrown at me and had it stick
 -if I was an idiot... or even a fool or completely wrong. (isn't that right?)

The good thing about the net is that it tends to negate social status, color creed, wealth and even peoples bad breath.
what's left is the points one makes.
If I was so very wrong and inept, this thread would not have gotten past the first page.
Your own personal attacks actually verify the validity of what you refuse to accept.
Otherwise your would refute the basic principles of what I said;
Dried cacti are going "to bring the hammer down" and everyone loses!
But ironically, you haven't and seem to be incapable of is offering is a better workable alterative !

All the posturing over "cognitive liberty" are in fact mute and faint at best.
(To tell the truth) It actually shows your desperation...
The federal government has dominion over what people can and can't do
as part of the social contract that empowers them.
Governments "imprison" schizophrenics  and other mentaly ill people
Go talk about cognitive liberty to them overdosed on medications.
in this post 1984 prozac nation
After that, go and  talk about "free personal choices" to people in jail.
and after that, go and talk to those people in jail for selling illegal
or even unscheduled drugs! (just try talking to pondman)

LW

However cognitive liberty, to me, is individual freedom to choose.

Yes, it sounds nice for people to read... and it makes them feel good.
But you and me live in a community (real world and net) and as such,
have a set of rules of society that you can either live by and be part of that said society
or suffer whatever "corrective forces" that social order has devised.
The problem is that I may also greatly suffer (in the real world)
because of someone else's irresponsible (real world) actions.

In short, your rights stop at the tip of my nose.
Go conduct yourself in another society -where you can't affect me.
it's YOUR CHOICE.

I'm very tired of having to also pay for the assorted asshat's and retard  fuckups.
Both myself and others are saying... Enough is Enough and drawing a line.
There are people who have spent decades caring for WONDERFUL CACTI
that do not want to toss them all into a chipper because of a few lazy people
who are claiming "it's my right to be a foolish asshole, Fuck You! because I'm lazy! and I say it's a right despite the law that says otherwise!".
But you know what?
Again, that all stops at the tip of my nose...
You do not have the right to affect me unjustly? because of your being a illegal asshole/fool

LW

I have no doubt the powers-who-be will eventually schedule pedro and allies. But I refuse to let that concern me to the point of giving up my religion, which is based on a relationship with god through active sacrament.

What's that?  HUH? That's' crazy Especially when EA-1306 has pointed out that in the DECADES that mescaline's been known in the trich's it's NEVER MADE IT INTO THE DEA's publications!
But after only after a few months dried cacti chips get into the DEA's Microgram: Microgram 1, Microgram 2!
I find that lack of concern for other people and self delusion to be at the core of our position.
Despite claims to the contrary.
And TELL ME JUST HOW the lack of dried cacti chips sold via the net is going to affect
ANY recognized religion in the United States, AUS or UK?
Can't do that? Ok, I'll make it easier, how about any unrecognized religion?
Can't do that Either? huh?  Well, thats because you're full of shit!
But it all sounds really nice...  to those that you wish to set yourself up as a heroic rebel martyr of the people:lol:
It's all about popularity contest in the forums... isn't it?

To profess certainty toward a course of action for an entire community is simplistic and egotistical, imo.

Do you have any theory or data that says that cacti chips will not lead to drug enforcement?
Seems to me that you already have accepted my basic points in your own words(above)
Therefore, your position and arguments are part of the problem and not the solution.
Suggest a working solution! or sit down and the Shut the F up!

I'd prefer you to argue a position rather than have to wade through the blather you've posted from time to time in this thread.

Yes, I can see you try to attack the person and their supporters vs  the points made.
Please address the validity of the points. Otherwise it's all  BS

Adding another layer of management by those professing to know what's best for the community, is the issue at hand.

it certainly seem that your way has been successful...  hasn't it?
isn't it a simple matter of taking the information of the how too's
and selfishly ignore the responsibilities that are also inherent?
That is the sole reason why we have illegality of certain molecules and substances
in the first place.
Thank you very much for continuing to be part of the problem.

It's because of the selfishness and irresponsible abuses of others
that those who have put in the time and effort - will also suffer.
The simple STUPIDITY of thumbing your nose at authority in power that
has also made it's way into thumbing your nose at people that actually
have something to lose!
and shouldn't even have to suffer in the first place!

People who order dried cacti chips do not operate in a vacuum!
Otherwise, this wouldn't be a issue...
HOWEVER, IF you wanted to compensate EVERYONE for their losses due
to your illegal and irresponsible actions... well thats fine... problem solved.
But I seriously doubt that you have the assets to do that.
instead you rather force others to bear your burdens!

I eagerly await your reply.

[laughingwillow]

quote space:  The bale might like to blame the straw for its heightened odds of breaking the camel's back, but I've yet to hear the bales volunteering to hop off.

flip: Fuck you and the rest of the deluded cognoscente you rode in on.

lw