Shamans Golden Strain:?

[winder]

How many generations of seeds to plants to seeds could have occurred by now?

Suppose someone has been working with salvia for 6 years and got seeds every 2 years.

3 generations.

That is not too many generations for optimizing a strain.

I am skeptical also.

[freeseeker]

I'm curious as to

a) whether Daniel Siebert was made aware of the fact there was a new strain available--for sure, if I found what I suspected was a new strain, he'd be one of the FIRST people I would contact about the matter.

b) Were the plant samples brought back from Mexico actually Salvia strains?    If so, what kind?  I'm only aware of 7 strains that have been brought back and propagated.  The rest are seed-raised clones.  If the Salvia strains were the same as what could be found domestically, why travel to Mexico to gather them?  If they were different than what we have here, then why weren't some of these plants made available to Mr Siebert? With all due respect, Shaman's Ridge could have had a strain named after it without trying to spend 6 years cloning plants. :lol:

I'm not real clear on how a plant can be 'devoid' of salvinorin.  Anyone wanna take a swing at this? I'm not a scientist, so please keep it simple. :wink:

[winder]

How to be devoid of salvinorin?

The same way as others are enriched, I guess.

Cultivate for characteristics desired.

Salvinorin is primarily located in the trichomes on the leaves' undersides.

Fewer trichomes or less enriched trichomes, and I'd expect then less salvinorin-A.

As to the chemistry-related how and why of making a specific molecules such as Salvinorin-A, I have no clue.

To me it is rather amazing that only salvinorin-A can be obtained by some relatively simple means using three solvents, acetone, naphtha, and water.  I mean, I would expect there to be some other compounds there that might behave similarily with respect to these solvents, but nope, there are not.  Strange.

[Bongo]

The seeds from salvia d are extremely inefficient
In that they have such a poor germination rate usually less than 1/3 would produce seedlings and
Of those roughly ¼ would fail to survive into mature plants then it was a matter of testing for
salvinorin A content which varied considerably from very poor to mediocre to a few with strong
content. So after almost 6 years of rejecting all but a few plants from each set maintaining clones of
each to produce many clones to try to improve pollination results we ended up with the strain we
now refer to as Shamans Golden due to its coloring and the fact that it cost us quite a bit in actual money
to get to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I think TSTT read that wrong.

At least I take it to mean they found strains had developed with little Salvorin A content whcih were excluded from the breeding program.

[TooStonedToType]

I could have read that wrong.  This is more of the statement I was thinking of when I wrote that. Still though, looks like she's talking about a differnt plant the the "golden" strain.

"Simply put its his greatest joy working with these plants seeing just how far he can push things and to see what
He can come up with. We have a strain which is practically devoid of salvinorin but looks pretty that he has
maintained for some time. "

I hope we didn't scare vanessa away and she comes back here and answers some of these questions.  So far it still doesn't sound resonable.  As far as I know, the most success with pollination has occured in Hawaii about 5 years ago with Daniel Siebert's help. Seeds were limited and few germinated. They carefully hand pollinate and know what they are doing.  They haven't had similar results.

[space]

But I agree with TSTT that his points need to be addressed along with winder's observations and others.

If there is a dependable method to set SD seed, that alone would be tremendous.  And if you had that, you could (even in just a few generations via sheer numbers) generate enough variability to pick out a single plant with desired traits and then maintain a clone population:  I don't know if it would be technically accurate to call that a strain or not.  

Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts...

[space]

I could have read that wrong.  This is more of the statement I was thinking of when I wrote that. Still though, looks like she's talking about a differnt plant the the "golden" strain.

"Simply put its his greatest joy working with these plants seeing just how far he can push things and to see what
He can come up with. We have a strain which is practically devoid of salvinorin but looks pretty that he has
maintained for some time. "

I hope we didn't scare vanessa away and she comes back here and answers some of these questions.  So far it still doesn't sound resonable.  As far as I know, the most success with pollination has occured in Hawaii about 5 years ago with Daniel Siebert's help. Seeds were limited and few germinated. They carefully hand pollinate and know what they are doing.  They haven't had similar results.

Total agreement here:  replicability is all.

[TooStonedToType]

Vanessa PM'ed me while the board was down as she couldn't reply.  Her husband said he'll type up a propagation guide or something.  Hopefully, she'll see this and know the board is working again.

[Amomynous]

I think a little skepticism is warranted: hopefully Vanessa and the Shaman do not take it personally! I've seen quite a few outrageous claims and non Salvia d. plants sold as Salvia d. and as they say, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. So.. please take the skepticism as systemic and not personal

It occurs to me: a picture is worth a thousand words. I would love to see some pictures of your operation.

[Bongo]

So, TSTT
What is the deal with the PM?

[laughingwillow]

quote ttst: Vanessa PM'ed me while the board was down as she couldn't reply. Her husband said he'll type up a propagation guide or something.

I'm guessing it could take a little time to write up the bona fide successful sally propagation guide, bro.   :shock:

lw

[TooStonedToType]

Yea, in the pm a few days ago, she said the guide would be lengthy and would take a while.  Said she was not expecting to be criticized and was somewhat offended.  But she would carry on despite the rough treatment here as some were still asking questions rather that criticizing.  I think I said something like she should understand the skepticism as others have tried to sell fake and/or incorrectly identified plants before.  She said something about they didn't see Siebert as some sort of god that they needed to consult with and something about not wanting to attract law enforcement attention to their nursery (despite the fact they are not growing anything illegal).  I said something about I don't think anyone here believes Siebert is a god one must consult with all new salvia findings...its just we think it's a bit strange the claim there is such a "breeding" program going on and no one knows about it.  I figure if it is legit, she should be able to take some questions.  I'm still skeptical.

---------------

... I will type up his propagation instructions as soon as he gets them to me. Oh yeah the magic humming bird thing. I did ask about that and got a answer I dint quite understand, maybe you will. “that idiot Mazatec hook billed hummingbird is a parasite not a pollinator living off the excess nectar produced by unstressed Salvia’s. the pollinator is moths which are attracted by stressed plants” well that’s his reply cant say it means a lot to me but I know that there are moths in the breeder house and he doesn’t seem interested in killing them.

[Jupe]

[quOh yeah the magic humming bird thing. I did ask about that and got a answer I dint quite understand, maybe you will. “that idiot Mazatec hook billed hummingbird is a parasite not a pollinator living off the excess nectar produced by unstressed Salvia’s. the pollinator is moths which are attracted by stressed plants” well that’s his reply cant say it means a lot to me but I know that there are moths in the breeder house and he doesn’t seem interested in killing them.[/quote]

WOW TSST...the mystery deepens......I'm the one that mentioned Hummingbirds, sounds like somebodies got some bird issues "idiot parasite" hmmmm...Jeez all pollinators are accidental anyway......(moths also means you have worms somewhere else, eating dinner!!!).
 ..picked  up the Hummingbird reference  from Leander V's work perhaps.....Does he still post at the Alliance? He may not be a god, but he has done his research also.  He might shed some light on this....or laugh at  it.  
   
   I'm still open to Vanessa and crew making sense of all this...........

[TooStonedToType]

Yea, I'm still open to hearing more from Vanessa.

Don't know about the moth deal or "unstressed" flowering plants.  About all I've ever read is that "co-evolved pollination" article in the Botony of Salvia Divinorum.  http://www.sabia.com/salvia/index.html

[space]

Same here, TSTT, though I'm intrigued by the idea of a moth pollinator.

I know there are some moths with incredibly long tongues that are pollinators; also, that some rare plant species are endangered because insecticides are wiping out their equally rare pollinators...which might explain why SD so rarely sets seed, esp. in light of the free hand that U.S. companies have to sell insecticides south of the border that are banned here.  

Sheer speculation, of course, but who knows?  I vaguely recall some speculation that SD is an ancient hybrid with the fertility problems that hybrids sometimes have.

I've e-mailed Vanessa as well, just to express my hope that she will return and comment.