Wellbutrin +maoi issue.

[JRL]

I was wondering if anyone knows about the interactions of Wellbutrin and the reversible maois in ayahuasca. Jonathan Ott says that the warnings really pertain to the irreversible pharmaceuticals and the warnings for ayahuasca are inspired by the spiritual cleaning diet. 

[chiefbtflapflaps]

i wouldn't.  but i wouldn't take wellbutrin either...

[Genius Loci]

I take Cymbalta, and wean off before any harmala alkaloids.  Not sure how unpleasant the withdrawal from wellbutrin would be.

[chiefbtflapflaps]

probably very unpleasant...  the buproprion marketing team likes to dance around the withdrawal issue by calling it discontinuation syndrome.  personally, i wouldn't take either of those drugs.  you guys should do whatever works best for you -  but keep in mind it's awfully hard to know how your brain would have adjusted had you not begun treatment.  here are my thoughts:


theory:
does low serotonin cause depression?  the answer is no.  we are nowhere near understanding the brain to the point we can correct emotional disturbances consistently long term.  we can elicit certain effects such as emotional blunting but these effects are mostly unpredictable and no one knows what this does long term.  i have included an article below that explains the contrast between the (illegal) marketing and the science. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277931/


publication bias: you doctor likely didn't go into detail about this major issue that remains unresolved at present.  basically, pharmaceutical companies are able to conduct many studies and select only the flattering ones to publish.  like flipping a coin ten times and being able to throw away five results it's easy to see how the data can be skewed.  for the ssri class of drugs this phenomena is well documented. 


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa065779
http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_what_doctors_don_t_know_about_the_drugs_they_prescribe?language=en
http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science?language=en

basically, there were 38 positive studies and 36 negative studies.  of the 38 positive trails - 37 were published.  of the 36 negative - only 3...  20 years went by with doctors basing their decisions off this skewed sample...  this information is available to everyone but is not constantly reinforced in seventeen magazine or on cnn like the citalopram.   


you may be thinking that this doesn't apply to you because you are taking an snri or aminoketone not an ssri.  publication bias is widespread and applies to all classes of drugs. 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/02/13/publication-bias.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias


here is an article detailing how glaxosmithkline (buproprion) paid 3 billion for illegally marketing paxil... 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/glaxosmithkline-pays-3bn-for-illegally-marketing-depression-drug-7904555.html


here is an article explaining how lilly (cymbalta) paid 1.4 billion for the illegal marketing of zyprexa.
http://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2009/January/09-civ-038.html


this is a calculated risk for them.  it's like saying something in court even though you know there will be an objection.  the information is already out there.  the damage is already done. 


so basically you have a drug that science does not back up theoretically, is only marginally better than placebo according to studies conducted by its own patent holders and is marketed illegally by a company who has consistently broken laws to sell drugs that hurt people.  i vote primarily with my dollar.  and i don't vote for this type of behaviour. 


here is a little more information about eli lilly: 
http://www.drugwatch.com/dangerous-drugs.php


i don't know why you guys are depressed but my thoughts are with you.  i hope you can find some relief. 

[JRL]

Wellbutrin basically saved my life. Off label but well known as treatment for cocaine addicition.  As soon as I got on it ALL self medication ceased.

[JRL]

So yeah, take it from my cold dead hands.

[JRL]

Im a fan of allopathy. It enabled my step father to live 7 years after he got his 12 month terminal notice and got to meet his great grand kids for starters.

[JRL]

I wasnt signing up to be preached at BTW. I wanted you good people to SPECIFICALLY address Jonathan Ott's caveat.

[chiefbtflapflaps]

hey, sorry man.  live your life of course.  ..just fraud occurs on a large scale and i don't like seeing people victimized.  you are not being victimized.  that amalgamation we refer to as cocaine is a far a more offensive substance. 

[Genius Loci]

I don't take it for depression either, but it's the only thing that's helped PTSD and Agoraphobia which Cognitive Behavioral therapy couldn't touch.

[JRL]

It works for me, seems to be pretty side effect free except maybe a touch of insomnia. I asked my doc about getting off it, he asked me how i feel. I told him i was doin really well, and he said "we should leave well enough alone"

I was pretty lucky to have just the second med i tried to work well and be so well tolerated.

The withdrawal issue is a concern, I understand that it can be tough, just switching from my original med to Wellbutrin was difficult. But it is all apart of the huge improvement in my life, I may be on it for the rest of my life.

Meds+ therapy can work, you got to want it and work it. 

[chiefbtflapflaps]

in hindsight i really shouldn't respond with such enthusiasm without first understanding the context of what i'm responding to.  my comment, although reasonably accurate was fundamentally quite ignorant.  i don't doubt wellbutrin fills those synaptic gaps quite nicely in your situation. 

[JRL]

It seems to work. I did a pretty good job trashing my receptors in my younger days. But hey we're cool, I admit I'm hyper sensitive.

Its all been a growth process, and truly I dont know if its the meds or personal growth that has made my life so much better. My guess is its the combination. Just like I dont know who i would have been if i hadnt taken high doses of Owsley acid every week at 15, I really dont know.

Where you at on vaccines?

[chiefbtflapflaps]

in my opinion, the scariest thing about vaccines are generalizations.  there are many pathogens.  some more worrisome than others. i think it becomes dangerous when we group them all together.  all are bad.  all are good.  both are broad generalizations.  which vaccine?  when?  for whom?   it is 100% possible to elicit an immune response with a vaccine.  but it's also possible to elicit that same response eating bird shit.  has a greedy industry hijacked a natural process?  sometimes i wonder if nature is being repackaged and sold back to us...hmmm.  imagine that.  do i agree with vaccinating everyone for influenza?  no.  i feel it's ok for those who feel they are at risk to purchase the vaccine.  it may have some measurable effect depending on the strains that year.  governments should not stockpile the flu vaccine and definitely not antivirals. (see Tamiflu)  flu vaccines should NEVER be mandatory on any level because that violates a basic human right.  if anyone wants the flu vaccine but hasn't checked their vitamin d levels i would remind them that flu season happens at opposite times of the year in each hemisphere...and never at the equator...  mmr?  polio?  if you want to get them spread them out.  probably not a bad idea. hpv?  rick perry or anyone else who says they that the hpv vaccines should be mandatory is either getting paid or has hpv themselves.  tetanus is a tricky one.  yes and no.  if you're a baby in africa or plan on cutting yourself around horse shit.  then yes.  if your some dude on wallsteet then you're probably ok to go without.  clostridium tetani is a bacteria that comes from animal GI tracts.  it excretes a toxin that causes the condition tetanus.  in order for enough of that toxin to cause a problem the bacteria, which is anaerobic, has to colonize in a wound.  anaerobes are killed by air.  reasonable wound care will mostly eliminate the issue.  puncture wounds complicate things.  if you are a newborn in africa with a umbilical wound and your surrounded by livestock than you should get the vaccine...  now even if you do get an infection they won't give you the vaccine they will give you the immunoglobulin and antibiotics.  also many people develop immunity to tetanus orally over time.  this likely doesn't happen in our culture as we are mostly not farming our own food so don't expose ourselves to the pathogen.  the toughest pill to swallow for me is that even if you get tetanus and clear the infection yourself - you will not develop immunity.  so how can a damaged version of that same toxin somehow bring about immunity!?  my personal opinion is this: if you allow this bacteria to thrive inside of a wound you will develop tetanus independent of the tetanus vaccine.  also don't mess around with puncture wounds especially animal bites.   if you mention some others i will tell you my thoughts.  above all else i think what me must maintain is the ability to chose for ourselves and our families.


this topic does however bring up another ethical dilemma for me.  viruses, bacteria, fungi, plants, monkeys, nancy grace all live in somewhat of an equilibrium.  humans are beginning to upset that equilibrium.  when our population becomes too concentrated pathogens spread quickly.  i wonder if these pathogens are just another example of how this 'equilibrium' imposes it's boundaries.  ..and who says we should stop the pathogens?  they evolved just as i did.  maybe the high concentration of human beings is the real threat?  i guess it all depends who's looking. 

[JRL]

You ever see someone with lockjaw?