The Mortgage fraud & more

[Bushpig]

Stonehenge, with all due respect you need to re read (if  you read it first time) as your interpretation is completely in correct and shows a lack of understanding of the material presented.

Lets say person 1 loans a dollar to 2 who loans it to 3 etc and 10 loans it back to 1. Now $10 has been loaned even though only $1 actually exists. Is it fraud? No, its just commerce. Each of them borrowed a dollar, owes a dollar and someone owes them a dollar. So they are all even just like the banks in your example. Nothing was created out of thin air and no fraud exists.

The bank receives money from a depositor and then lends it out to a borrower. The borrower can then lend it out again or deposit it and the bank lends it out. Its just like my example of $1 changing hands many times.

Completely incorrect.  Bnkas expand the money supply through loans, it is not the simple transfer you describe.  The material provided makes thus point repeatedly.  The guy on the video even provides examples of when there is a money expansion and example of a simple transfer... showing a clear distinction between the two! 

The bank pays the money to the seller and takes a lien on the property. What is so complicated about that? The buyer is the nominal owner but the bank has a claim in the amount owed. The buyer gives up the lien because that is the only way to get the loan.

How can you give what you do not own ?


Admittedly it does take a while before the penny drops. You have definately not read the latest document either, which is an affidavit form an ex federal reserve employer/legal officer whom describes the process of loan creation and why it is fraud.  It is probably the best document thus far for explaining the process in a concise manner.

Booosh

[Zaka]

Irie,
I'm not sure why ur not getting it stoney?
Bushpig, have you found gordon hall!!! wikkid!!
http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=91191&cmd=tc
Some long-ass interviews to listen to. With complicated speak, not for the uninitiated. A whole lot heavier deal!
I recommend  episode 52....nothing to do with mortgage fraud, though others episodes do cover that.
I  like the way these guy's think! Making debt collectors pay, per letter/call!Hahha!!
Also check-out BenLoweryhimself on youtube....
Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

Those three videos are supposed to be the smoking gun. I admit for a little while i started to become convinced. Its easy to be taken in by stuff like that. Where he made his mistake was in thinking that a loan creates money out of thin air. The example i gave was exactly the same principle as what banks do. I thought you would see it there. Going back to the video

bank 1 gets 10k in deposits
bank 1 loans 9k which is deposited

The guy seems to think this creates new money in the amount of 9k but it does not. Yes, 19k seems to be in circulation but it really is not. The original deposit is now short 9k which needs to be made up for at some future time. The guy who borrowed the 9k can spend it and the guy who deposited the 10k can come back and take the money out. As long as at least enough people leave the money in the bank at any one time, it will work. It is kind of a juggling operation, robbing peter to pay paul but as long as people repay the loans it will work. It has worked for decades and centuries, perhaps longer than that.

You completely skipped over my example of person one who spends $1 to person two etc until person 10 spends it back to 1. $10 has been circulated and spent yet only $1 exists.

The banks by lending out money on deposit are simulating the economy the same way the people did who spent the money soon as they got it. Why do you believe that making a loan creates new money?

>How can you give what you do not own ?

In re to the home mortgage. Its no different than an unsecured loan in that the bank lends the money to buy the house which they took out of depositors accounts. The borrower pays back with interest. The lien is so the borrower cant just sell the house, pocket the money and skip town. A lien simply says money is owed on this property so no one can buy it without satisfying the lien.

You explain it zaka since you sound like you have it down solid

I ask again, why is borrowing money from depositors and lending it out the same as creating money out of thin air? Don't tell me to watch the video again. If you really and truly understand it, bush or anyone, then explain to me that part. But noooo, it will be watch this 3 hour video and then you will be a true believer too. And if not, then another long video.

My example of borrowing seemed also to create new money but you ignore that because its not a video.

[Zaka]

Irie,
I'm not sure I'm able to explain it any better but here goes.
So what is money?

It's a promissory note!
Each one of the fed res dollars are the same.
Each has a social security number, to whom the promissory note has a lien against.

Anyone can create a promissory note, which is what you are actually doing when you create a bank loan.
The money does no exist prior to that point. The same is true of credit card machines...
None of these instruments actually create a real paper fed res note (or similar), but all are money(promissory notes).
Promissory notes are money.

Sorry link to a darn youtube but I think it explains it!
Actually I found a better one.
Damn this gonna take some time!!
BTW try listen to podcasts rather than waste heaps of time watching...
Laters,
Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

Zaka, a federal reserve note is fiat currency backed by the govt. A promissory note is a promise to pay by an individual. The govt has not yet defaulted ever, individuals have many times so money is better than iou's even though they are both promises to pay. It would be nice if we could write iou's and spend them like cash. But who would accept them?

Bush, i hope you have started to see through the bafflegab this guy was peddling. If you want to call an iou new money in circulation that is a way of looking at it but no new money has actually been created. Its just expanding buying power through borrowing.

The example of the house is the same as any loan. You say how can the buyer give back a lien when he doesn't own it. When the bank makes an unsecured loan and the borrower buys something, doesn't he/she own it? Same thing with real estate. They borrow the money and buy the house. The only difference is the bank puts a lien on the house to prevent funny business.

[Zaka]

Zaka, a federal reserve note is fiat currency backed by the govt.

Irie,
Who is the Government??
What are Government Bonds??

Really take a look at the last vid I posted, it shows how the fiat card-trick works..only 5mins..

Also What are REMITTANCES???
You see that word on you traffic tickets but do you know what they are???

Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

I hope you guys see the difference between borrowing and creating new money. Bush, does your silence mean consent?

Borrowing does free up money which can then be spent and stimulate the economy. If not for that the economy would stagnate. Borrowing gives the borrower money he did not have and may seem like new money. But that is only if you ignore the necessity of paying it back. The bank borrows from the depositor, the client borrows from the bank and so on. The statement that banks create money out of thin air is not true. They borrow it.

[Zaka]

Irie Stoney,
Nice one, try pulling a complicit consent ....hehehe

I think your missing the point of fiat banking.
What you seem to be implying is that these fiat banks work like a credit union...
They don't, they are not the same....
Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

Zaka, the corner bank does not create currency. Fiat refers to the fact all money is backed by only the credit of the govt.

>What you seem to be implying is that these fiat banks work like a credit union...

Only the fed reserve is a fiat bank and can create money aka qe like we had a while back. Commercial banks work the same as credit unions in the way they make loans. They borrow against deposits and lend that money out. Banks can also borrow from the fed. The difference is a credit union is supposed to be non profit

[Bushpig]

Hi all, no in fact I've been rather busy of late Stoney.

This is what I see Stoney

I have presented an argument and have backed it up with various sources of evidence demonstrating my argument.  You Stoney have not read or looked into that evidence and have failed to put any evidence to support your propositions.  This is entirely up to you.  I made this topic with the intention of assisting those viewing these forums what can be done about the unlawful banking practices gripping the globe.  I'm not so interested in a tit for tat with somebody not prepared to do the research.  I asked on the first page of this thread for those prepared to do the research.  Please if you are to continue with your position stoney, show us the evidence!

That said, I hope you do not take this personally.  Well researched and considered responses welcomed.

More food for thought Stoney and all:

US court case documenting some of the issue:

http://homelessokc.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/25/2475871-mortgage-foreclosure-precedence-set-in-1969-case-of-the-first-national-bank-of-montgomery-v-jerome-daly-by-instrument-of-consideration-and-upon-this-revelation-the-court-rejected-the-banks-claim-for-foreclosure-and-daly-kept-his-home


Booosh

[Zaka]

Irie,
Stoney, if you want, I'll mail you my copy of the creature of Jekyll island.
Booosh, I think this quote explains it;

"Mr Daly explained that the money was in fact not the property of the bank, for it was created out of nothing as soon as the loan agreement was signed. Remember what Modern Money Mechanics stated about loans? What they do, when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits. Reserves are unchanged by the loan transactions, but deposit credits constitute new additions to the total deposits of the banking system. In other words: The money doesn't come out of their existing assets, the bank is simply inventing it, putting up nothing of it's own, except for a theoretical liability on paper."

Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

Bush, i did indeed watch your 30 minute video that was supposed to capture the essence of the fraud. All it did was document the fact that banks lend out their deposits to borrowers. We've known that for a long time. I asked you how making a loan creates new money and you have not answered. Your original claim was that the banks were committing mortgage fraud and you have veered away from that and said they created money out of thin air by lending deposits. Now its something else?

>What they do, when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits. Reserves are unchanged by the loan transactions, but deposit credits constitute new additions to the total deposits of the banking system. In other words: The money doesn't come out of their existing assets, the bank is simply inventing it, putting up nothing of it's own, except for a theoretical liability on paper."

Who is giving the new deposits? If it is the fed or an agency like freddy mac then the bank is selling the mortgage for cash. Yes, they get their money back right away but so what? They originate the loan, make a few points on it and sell it. Then they have the money to lend again. How is that fraud? In your own words?

Telling people to watch a 3 hour video when you can't explain it yourself means you are taking the word of someone because they sound like they know what they are talking about. Everything i've heard so far is just normal banking practices. Nothing comes out of thin air although making loans does get more cash into circulation. If that is your point then point taken. Fraud, not so much.

[Zaka]

Irie,
As always the "Gems" are in the comment section;

"The Greenbacks actually were just as good as the bankers' banknotes. Both were created on a printing press, but the banknotes had the veneer of legitimacy because they were "backed" by gold. The catch was that this backing was based on "fractional reserves," meaning the bankers held only a small fraction of the gold necessary to support all the loans represented by their banknotes. The "fractional reserve" ruse is still used today to create the impression that bankers are lending something other than mere debt created with accounting entries on their books.

Giving the Federal Reserve Bank (Fed) interest for printing money is the biggest fraud upon the American people.  Per the constitution, only congress can mint coin.  Money must be based on something of value. The Fed is owned by a secret group of the most wealthy individuals in the world.  Instead of paying a printing fee for stamping out dollars, they charge interest.  But since only Congress can print money, the Fed does not own the money, therefore, cannot charge interest.
The way it works now is that private owners basically print "counterfeit" money and lend it to the United States government (supposedly the people) in return for interest.  It is like an author hiring a print shop to publish his book.  Instead of paying a fee for the service, the author would have to give over his royalties to the printer.  But since the print shop does not own the publishing rights, it has no right to royalties.
And the American people silently allow this to happen . . .
This is why the rich get richer.

[Peter Joseph] from Zeitgeist
A number of years ago, the central bank of the United States, the Federal Reserve, produced a document entitled "Modern Money Mechanics". This publication detailed the institutionalized practice of money creation as utilized by the federal reserve and the web of global commercial banks it supports.
On the opening page the document states its objective. The purpose of this booklet is to describe the basic process of money creation in a fractional reserve banking system. It then precedes to describe this fractional reserve process through various banking terminology.
A translation of which goes something like this:

   
• The United States government decides it needs some money.
• So it calls up the federal reserve and requests say 10 billion dollars.
• The FED replies saying: "sure, we'll buy ten billion in government bonds from you".
• So the government takes some pieces of paper, paints some official looking designs on them, and calls them treasury bonds.
• Then it puts a value on these bonds to the sum of 10 billion dollars and sends them over to the FED.
• In turn the people of the FED draw up a bunch of impressive pieces of paper themselves, only this time calling them federal reserve notes, also designating a value of ten billion dollars to the set.
• The FED than takes these notes and trades them for the bonds.
• Once this exchange is complete, the government than takes the ten billion in federal reserve notes, and deposits it into an bank account.
• And, upon this deposit the paper notes officially become legal tender money.
• Adding ten billion to the US money supply.

And there it is! Ten billion in new money has been created. Of course, this example is a generalization. For, in reality, this transaction would occur electronically, with no paper used at all.

A mate of mine just today told me how he & his lawyer, have just sussed out a robo-signing fraud with his mortgage, in Florida.
He was stoked!
Respect,
Z

[Stonehenge]

I'm not sure who owns the banks in the federal reserve but they are run by the us govt. When the govt needs money, it does not just print some up, normally. This has been done and it was called quantitative easing which has been done 2 times. Normally they borrow the money by selling treasuries on the open market. If they did not have to do that and could owe the money to no one, they would do that and nothing else. So how do you explain the fact that we owe some $15t in national debt? It is owed to people and corporations as well as foreign govts.

Making a loan on deposits does not create new money. People get confused over all the terminology and accept the statements made by people with an agenda. I loan you $100 and you loan it to someone else. How much new money has been created? None.

Bush, you were confused over the fact that a lien is created when you buy a house with a loan. You say how can you give back what you don't own. I've explained that but you don't want to hear it.

The real scandal is that we owe more than we can repay, not just the feds but state govts and local govt too.

But you folks have your minds made up and do not want to be confused with facts.

[Zaka]

Irie,

I'm not sure who owns the banks in the federal reserve but they are run by the us govt.

It's privately owned. And it's they that run the us govt.

When the govt needs money, it does not just print some up, normally.

Normally; They commission the fed to print the money at $1+interest.....scam!

This has been done and it was called quantitative easing which has been done 2 times.

Number 3  today!!but I don't think lamestream presstitutes said anything about it!

Normally they borrow the money by selling treasuries on the open market.

Which is bought up by the fed.....ingenious!

So how do you explain the fact that we owe some $15t in national debt?

Cos the "TOO BIG TO Fail" bankers palmed off a bunch of crud derivatives to the tax payers.

Damn man I'll pay for the shipping, let me send you that book!!!
Respect,
Z