banisteriopsis Rusbyana?

[ayahuasca-journey]

hey guys, I show some pictures??







ayahuasca-journey
 :tea:

[dendro]

A-j, are these pics of the plant you are calling Diplopterys cabrerana?

Is this the plant from which you are making and selling cuttings?

Is this the plant the native Americans showed you? Is this the one they called chalipanga?

Have you drunk an aya brew made from the leaves of this plant?

Did it bring the Glory and the Light?

Are these the pics that you showed Vajrapr8? (Vajrapr8 said, after seeing your pics, he cancelled his order, cuz he did not believe the pics matched with D. cab.)

A-j, I don't care what the scientific ID or scientific name of this plant is. All I care about is this: is it active and potent as an aya admixture plant. If it is active and potent with the Light (DMT), then I would say it is chalipanga. And chalipanga is what I would like to buy, please.  :smoke1  :smoke1  :smoke1

You do know that Shoemaker and his native shaman friends have never seen chalipanga in flower before, right? He has said that he has never seen chalipanga set seed, also his wife and a very knowledgeable shaman in Iquitos have said that they have never seen chalipanga in flower or making seed.

So if you have a plant that flowers and makes seeds, it may be a different plant than the plants that Shoemaker knows and grows as chalipanga.

It may be a close cousin of D. cabrerana.

Or it may actually be a rare flowering, seeding D. cabrerana, also known as chalipanga. If so, congratulations on your find!!!  :cool3

Personally, I do not care which name the plant goes by. The name is not so important, but the experience is. I would just love to grow a chalipanga plant, so that I could brew aya with it, for the Forje and the Luz.

If the plant you show brings the Light and Glory to the aya brew, then it is chalipanga to me, and I would love to grow it.

 :e_biggrin:  :e_biggrin:  :e_biggrin:

[Zaka]

Irie,
Hummm???
These are the seeds I got in from aj....that were labeled "Diplopterys seeds"....
[attachment=0:2mlbdv0i]DSCN3167a.JPG[/attachment:2mlbdv0i]
Now, they ain't looking the same as the OP photo, above???
So I'm confused!


Also got these seeds labeled "U.T."? Anyone want to hazard a guess???
[attachment=1:2mlbdv0i]DSCN3166a.JPG[/attachment:2mlbdv0i]
Respect
Z

[therealsanango]

Hi, my name is Alberto i am new menber here just registered but i am old menber at edot, i think AJ has had a little confusion when selecting the seeds and confused with white and red caapi seeds it was an honest mistake as they look very simililar to chali AJ is actually getting some of his items from our location in the jungle so he is working with us, we have been working in the investigation of chaliponga for 10 years as we were told that the plant was not original from the area, so we decided to make our own research with a botanist and anthropologist friends.
with tones of local information from curanderos around here, of course the plant is not near pucallpa but this is growing in our land 4 hours down ucayali river so be sure that the plant showed in picture above is a 100% chaliponga we tried the leaves in brew and they are chaliponga for real, we got to the conclusion that there are 2 strains of diplopterys cabrerana the one with more sharped pointed leaves and there is another one with bigger and little rounded leaves
we tried both with good results mixed with caapi.
please, do not blame A-j he has done his best to cooperate with the identification too.
we will be happy to keep providing information for you
feel free to ask

peace

Alberto

[dendro]

Thanks Alberto, that is great info. The plant in the pic above is very beautiful. Who took the pic? Is it from one of your plants?

I would be so happy to have viable seeds or cuttings from either strain of chali you describe.

Do both strains flower and make seeds in your district?

Are the flowers from both strains yellow, as in the pic above? Are there other differences between the strains, besides the shape of the leaves?

I have seen pics of both types of chalipanga you describe, and I have drunk a brew made from the type of leaf shown in the pic above. It was quite active.

Thanks to you and a-j for the work you have done with these plants.

[Stonehenge]

Nice first post and welcome to spf, alberto. However it's going to take more than a new name to convince people on these boards. I know nothing about it but those seeds zaka showed look exactly like the seeds from my caapi plant and other caapi seeds i've seen. That doesn't prove anything because different plants sometimes have similar seeds.

P viridis leaves have been reported to give dmt effects when smoked. And of course when used in an ayahuasca. PV leaves are well known to contain this substance. If this chaliponga is a little stronger, that's nice but so what. If you have people who trip off a little smoke from pv, you might have the same thing from this and it may not be as strong as pv. I don't know the answer but i'm not paying big bucks for a bag of magic beans or magic stems. If this exists it will be brought here and sold in a normal way. Caapi grows like mad and no matter how greedy the first person is, sooner or later many will be growing it and it will be available at a reasonable price. Then we can calmly discuss how strong it is and how it should be used.

Even if it never flowers it can be cloned. Air layering works on many difficult species. Then there is tissue culture. This is beginning to sound like a myth or at least an exaggeration.

[Zaka]

Irie,
Thanks Alberto.
Could you take a quick look at the following links and let me know which of them looks like the two types you have???
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-ecu-2196515.jpg
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-ecu-1951552.jpg
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-bra-928895.jpg
http://fm1.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/?PHPSESSID=101232c38591071a74c42602000f6831&page=results&rpno=1&family=MALPIGHIACEAE&country[]=&genus=Diplopterys&species=&intPerPage=25

Also any idea on U.T.?

Respect
Z

[ayahuasca-journey]

Hey guys, first thank Alberto for his participation in the forums and he is not a senior member on this forum ... and well I clarify that it was an honest mistake with the seeds, now it is understood that I do not want to sell the caapi vine per CD, only showed the picture of the seeds to create a confusion vajrapirate ....
after that can display photos of the mother plant flowers and seeds so that they understand that it was a plant Chaliponga 100% real and true ....
thank you all and have a good weekend !!!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  

ayahuasca-journey

[therealsanango]

Hi, again well zaka it is difficult to tell from dried leaves the first one you showed me look like the sharped pointed vine, both chalis bloom yellow flowers the other strain has little redish conbination but this only blooms 1 time every 2 years, yes, both strain grow in the area, from my own research both are active.
chaliponga is just a plant like chacruna with the difference that this is a vine, some people say is more active but from my experience is the same, vissions might be different as they bring different spirits, but i prefer to use chacruna i am more confidence, i have friends using chali over here.
talking about the seeds, to determine a viable seed of chali you have to be very carefull when selecting as there is a bug that eats the nut of the seed, so it needs to be wacthed most of the time to determine is 100% viable, i have sent chali seeds to ktbotanicals last year i do not know how many were viable i gave him special offer anyways this is a very jelous plant to grow but not impossible from cutting is best.
i will be happy to keep helping guys

peace

Alberto

[VajraPirate]

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3100/1043-4534(2006)95%5B1%3AEODATE%5D2.0.CO%3B2

I had trouble downloading this one the last time I tried, but this is imo the most important document to read if you were interested in properly differentiating between Diplopterys and Banisteriopsis: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ccda ... B_2006.pdf

It clearly describes D. cabrerana as having a ruffled rather than flat and straight wing.


All of the pics I have seen so far seem to be of flat samaras.

I think it is important not to judge either of our new friends too harshly. It is possible "chaliponga" locally refers to a plant which is not D. cabrerana itself, but another DMT bearing vine.

[dendro]

Fascinating links, Vajrapr8.

Wow, Diplopterys is a large group of varying plant relatives! I didn't realize how many there were. Yes, a-j's plant is definitely not B. rusbyana or D. cabrerana.

But what is it? Trippin me out. Yellow flowers, almost blunt leaves in places. And it contains Light. According to Alberto, it contains less Light than the fabled D. cab sample assayed at, what was it, 1.3%? But still, it is an effective admixture, again, according to Alberto.

Perhaps these many species and subspecies of Diplopterys are widely active? Kinda makes sense they would be, so many are so similar. Wish I knew more.  :tea:  

The plant is called chaliponga in it's 'hood, and it has a history of use. Perhaps a-j's plant is more representative of this subfamily than the exceptional sample of D. cab, with an activity range more like P. viridis? It has been called chacruna by native brewers, which may imply a comparison or correspondence. And perhaps there are many more cousins out there. Some of them may be very concentrated. They may respond well to loving culture.

Seems there is much work for ethnobotanists still to do in SA.

A-j, please keep us updated on the taxonomic ID of your plant.  :tea:

[therealsanango]

Hi, this has come to an exageration, the plant we have i am sure is a  DC, BR, OR DMT vine no matters how you want to call it, it is an active vine, we are not far from brazil or ecuador , we are just near to the borders of brazil, we can go by boat.
i see many of the information is wrong in internet, this chaliponga is just like the psichrotya species, we have the viridis, brachypoda/colorata, carthagenensis, and many more described by local people with other names.

peace

Alberto

[VajraPirate]

Whatever it is it isn't Diplopterys cabrerana. That is a fact. It cannoty be Diplopterys cabrerana because it does not bear seed with ruffled samaras.

So call it "chaliponga", call it "Chacruna" call it "DMT bearing vine" but you absolutely must not and cannot call it Diplopterys cabrerana. If you do it is going to lead to a whole new era of misidentification here in the US.

The plant if being called "Diplopterys cabrerana" at any point after this would not only be a misidentifiaction, but a deliberate misrepresentation, which is totally unacceptable.

Please, anyone who brings this plant to market in the US, please do not ever refer to it as D. cab. It woukld be fine to call it "Chaliponga", but only if you actually used the quote tags and a description explaining that this is a plant, which although not Being D. cabrerana, is referred to as chaliponga by the Shipbo people. I apologize for misspelling that. I am sure someone will correct that error.

Stop referring to it as D. cab (which is a scientific designation that does not fit this plant) and start referring to it as "Chaliponga". I am not sure if I will come across as clearly as I would like by saying it should be called quotation chaliponga end quotation, but I have done the best I can do for the moment and hopefully another member will be able to put into terms more easily understood by non-English-as-a-first-language-speaking peoples.

It's not D. cab. It CANNOT be D. cab. That I hope I am clear on.


It is actually very important that we are picky about this, even if it comes across as beating a dead horse.

Iam still very interested in acquiring this plant myself. It is definiitely a plant of great interest!

[therealsanango]

Hi, vajrapirate thank you for your searching but you are putting me in big confusion, i am growing these vines in my land, i've been told by many of my braziian friends that thi is DC incuding my botanist friend, the plant is very active no doubt about that, i grow this vine because i believe is a real DC.
i have shippded the incense leaves to friends in US and have recieved no regrets
can you show clear photos?  i will contact my friend in brazil to attach me pictures, they say to me is the same plant they brew there.
more info please?

namaste

Alberto

[VajraPirate]

Alfonso - First I just want to make clear that I do not think that either you or AJ are intentionally misrepresenting your plant as something it is not.

Okay, that said, go to the second link that I posted and you will see (after some searching through it) that the botanists at harvard (a very prestigious US school) have identifired D. cab as having a 'ruffled' samara, or wing. That, and other references to it having a ruffled samara are what I am basing my posts on.

In fact, the only references I have seen to the shape of the seed of D. cab are to ruffled wings attached to a single seed.

That link is full of english scientific terms which can be hard for even us native english speakers to decipher, just as a warning.

I don't think at all that you or AJ are lying about the plant. I just cannot accept a plant bearing flat winged seeds as D. cab after what I have read and researched in the past week. I know it may be hard to accept that I think my one week of research negates what is essentially generations of local history of the shamans you are currently or were previously working with, but I would not state it as fact if I were not absolutely convinced of it being absolutely true.


I also own a small business that deals in locating, identifying, propagating and selling of ethnobotanical plants. A mistake that big on my part would definitely cause my customers present past and future to doubt my knowledge and abilities. I would not want that at all!

Namaste.