*Real* indigenous Peruvian Shaman QUESTIONS

[jdm]

*deleted*

[jdm]

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[Stonehenge]

Couldn't you just go there, talk to the native people, get the lay of the land and find your own group? Besides saving money, it would allow you to talk with the organizers first and maybe even observe a ceremony or part of one before taking part yourself. You could talk to people who have participated and get their input. Those tourist packages are not only overpriced but you may get what some hustler put together. Asking around is always my advice.

[Amomynous]

My girlfriend is second generation Peruvian and makes numerous trips per year to Peru to see her family. Some of her family members stayed with us over the holidays and invited me to come stay with them in Lima, Peru. If I am going to spend $400-500 to fly to Peru I would like to participate in a Ayahuasca Ritual with an authentic Peruvian Shaman that preferably only accepts gifts as payment if possible.

A couple of things:

One is you'll want to get out of Lima as quickly as possible--it's (IMO) a horrible city. I think Taraporto, Pullcapa, or even Iquitos are better ideas.  Once you decide where you're going, you can start to do some research about well-known healers or healing centers.

Also, finding an "authentic Peruvian Shaman that preferably only accepts gifts as payment" probably isn't possible. South American shamanism is quite different from North American shamanism in this respect. In the North shamans aren't expected to be paid: in the South the demand it. I once, for example, drank with a Napo Runa shaman from Ecuador (as "authentic" as they come), and he actually preferred that you hand him the money during the ceremony so he could bless it. I felt uncomfortable with this--as would most Northerners--but his reaction let me know that I had been informed correctly, and this is the right way of doing it among his people. I've also drank with Shipibo, and they too demand payment. Which brings me to the last point:

If you can afford it, you may want to consider drinking at a center that "caters" to Northerners. The shamans tend to be quite good (they're just as authentic as any), and these places tend to have the amenities that Northerners appreciate, like mosquito netting over the Maloca and the occasional flush toiled to puke and shit into. This is not to say that they're posh--literally you wouldn't find anything so rustic as the nicest anywhere in NA--but I know a many people who have stayed at such places and found it profound and meaningful. And in some perverse ways they seem "more authentic" to the Northerners. Let's face it, shamans are just normal people with normal concerns.  They may be skilled at certain things, but they're not particularly "spiritual," and you would probably find drinking with one to be a lot like drinking with some random neighbor on your street. The centers that cater to Northerners tend to match Northern expectations a little better.  

If you find yourself in the Iquitos area I may be able to give you some suggestions for currandeors.

Good luck!

[shoemaker]

considering that most all the good curanderos have invested in building and maintaining jungle lodges, i.e. ceremonial maloca screened in with bathrooms, private cabins and the hired help that are paid monthly salaries, it's essential that they receive a "gift" from passengers when they come and use the facilities. The best and most usable "gift" is the green one.
There are many excellent healers in the Upper Amazon and one of my preferred shamans is Percy Garcia. I like Percy for his open heart, transparency, his aya is wicked, and he's middle price ranged.
The Temple used to be a good location but it's out of control now, no management worth anything and they bill theirselves as non profit but in actuallity, that's just a ruse to make money.

[Avery L. Breath]

..... a couple good aya tourism articles on maps.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v08n3/08359gru.html

"The industry also has an impact on the environment. Not only are the people of South American placing demands on the supply of ayahuasca, but with the influx of tourists, sources could be in danger of complete exhaustion"

(reminds me of how peyote is rapidly dissapearing in the wild.)

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v12n2/12236stu.html

can't say I'm particularly fond of the practice myself.  Just seems counter-intuitive and maybe a tad bit dishonest.... being sold a bill of goods.

here's a time article -

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 31,00.html

That being said, I'd venture that if you had a specific destination in mind that some feelers on the various aya related websites might land you a fairly reputable guide, but i couldn't guarantee that.

Also if a person where to get themselves a couple of peruvian penpals and gradually work around to the subject, maybe opportunity would present itself.

I'd be generally opposed to most any folks just stumbling down to peru and hope for the best approach.  Just the risks involved and the chances for miss-communication and/or offending the indigenous population being ignorant of customs.

[shoemaker]

Just to clarify, there is no danger of the vine becoming rare. There are plantations everywhere and two or three times a week some farmer is asking me where he can sell his product. It grows quickly and just about anywhere, just stick a piece of vine into the ground and in three years it's harvestable size and needs virtually no upkeep. When they harvest, they take another 50 pieces of vine and plant them.

[cielo]

I am not worried about the vine being used up as Alan says it grows like a weed and there is plenty.

What worries me is what we bring with us, the allure of the west, its money its THINGS, our egos.

Diverting a little...There is a lot of talk lately about shamen who abuse women. And YES there are those ..but what of the women who come here, are flattered and flirt with these men and yes they are men first!

They use their sexuality and then when the shaman turns back to his wife and refuses them they are infused with rage and  of course then the bad press.

I have been watching one such occurrence this week and I am appalled. I am waiting now to see the fallout. The shaman in question (and no I will not name him)as far as I know, and I have known him for 2 years, has not behaved like this before.

I encourage as many as I can to come here to the medicine but there is no room for Ego working with this ayahuasca. When you come leave it behind, open your heart and do your work. Make the most of your time with her, be humble and receive the blessings that she has to give.

with love of la madre
Cielo

[cielo]

Oh and I can also endorse Percy Garcia. I dont know his website but sure you could google him.

If you make it to Iquitos, I live here and am happy to help you find your way.

my email is mailto:cieloinperu@gmail.com">cieloinperu@gmail.com or can call on 51 1 988686050

In peace
Cielo

[Murple]

Most of the real indigenous shamans live way out in the jungle, probably don't speak Spanish or have much contact with regular Peruvians. You can probably find a decent mestizo shaman, however, and your best bet is probably to go down and ask locals - but this is a process that will probably take much longer than most vacations allow. Talk to cielo if you go to Iquitos, that way you don't have to spend months getting to know locals and finding out who isn't just trying to make money off tourists.

That said, some of the tourist shamans may be worth considering. They aren't always cheap. They probably are only partly "authentic." But, you can find them easily, you can read reviews of other people who have used their services, and they can probably give you a good experience. After all, there are so many cultures in the Amazon who use ayawaska in different ways with different spiritual beliefs, so when you say you want a "real indigenous" shaman - what does that mean, really? You just want to get some good ayawaska from someone who is safe, won't rob you, and can provide some structure to the experience. If you go down to Peru for a few weeks and start asking around from strangers, you may luck out, or you may find someone who sees a gringo with money and end up having a bad time. Unless you're there long enough to get to know people, it's a gamble.

[Syd]

Isn't life a gamble?

[ross]

There are those who know Iquitos and the Amazon and those who are 'blow-ins' as we used to say in Ireland. Alan Shoemaker has been in Iquitos for years, knows the region, the blow-ins from the authentic people who are really doing the work and if that wasnt enough organises the Amazonian Conference in Iquitos each year. So if I were you I'd be inclined to listen to what he has to say about the temple of the way of light.

My own experience, after 10 years of working in Peru at various medicine centres, is that the temple was at best mediocre. Its absentee landlord (Mat Watherston, lives in the UK, rarely visits) is a rather paranoid individual and believes that everyone is "doing brujo" on him and "wants his DNA". That paranoia rubs off on the centre so you can imagine it's not all that restful. It's also very costly for what you get (weak aya, average accommodation, confused healers). The real kicker for me though was that I took a group of 20 there and two weeks prior to our arrival (when some of the group were already in Peru) the owner, Mat Watherston, decided to double our agreed price - or cancel my group and leave people stranded in Peru. Blackmail by any other word. Lack of integrity by ANY word.

So when Shoemaker says there's hardly any management at the temple and it claims to be non-profit as a ruse to make MORE profit it's hardly any surprise to me.

I'd give it a major pass if I were you and for sure I won't ever go back there - but that's just me; do your own research and make your own choices.

Just as a sign-off here's a possible alternative: www.ayahuascaretreats.org - run by someone once employed by the temple but, like a few of the temple's managers and supervisors recently, no longer interested in working there. You might ask yourself why but again, make up your own mind.

Peace
Ross

[laughingwillow]

Diverting a little...There is a lot of talk lately about shamen who abuse women. And YES there are those ..but what of the women who come here, are flattered and flirt with these men and yes they are men first!

They use their sexuality and then when the shaman turns back to his wife and refuses them they are infused with rage and  of course then the bad press.

I have been watching one such occurrence this week and I am appalled. I am waiting now to see the fallout. The shaman in question (and no I will not name him)as far as I know, and I have known him for 2 years, has not behaved like this before.

cielo

I find this topic interesting. It was recently being discussed on another forum I read. Apparently there is a "healer" in Bolivia who admits to the practice of regularly hitting on young western women immediately after conducting a "healing" ceremony with them.  

It sounds like there are a few members of the other community who have been posting periodic reminders on aya sites that young western women venturing down south for an aya experience should expect to be propositioned by unscrupulous healers in general and this one in particular.  Anyway, the healer in question is pissed and maybe losing bidness because of the negative press.

lw

[Amomynous]

I'm not a young, pretty woman--so this is somewhat speculative--but I imagine they get hit on all the time in general while traveling, and I imagine the curandero is no different than the motorcar driver in this regard.

But it is really a horrible situation. First off, after a strong ceremony with the tea one can be left in a very open state, and all of the usual, expected psychological processes can take place: projection, transference, etc. Couple that with the mismatch of expectations (some in the North still confuse "ayahuascaquero" with "guru") and it is a situation that can be, and has been, abused.  

It's really pretty basic stuff. Even in the mainstream psychological community one of the only ways you can loose a license is to have a sexual relationship with a patient, and if even they get it... well, like I said, it's easy, straight-forward stuff.

I know a woman slightly (I've drank in ceremony with her a few times), who was exposed to the tea for the first time this past summer. Not surprisingly, she became quite smitten with the curandero with whom she first drank (a person of European descent, but someone with a lot of experience with the tea). He didn't take advantage of her, much to his credit, but he damn well could have if he had wanted.

Everyone involved, from the curandero to the pretty young lady, has to be well-informed and take responsibility for their actions, but even so that's not going to make the problem go away. It could lessen it a bit, though.

[senorsalvia]

There is a guy that is known as ' The Gringo Shaman '  Located in the Iquitos region...  He seems pretty legit...  You can check out his site by googling his name...  He charges (I believe)  30 USD a session...  You can go to the coast to coast  AM website and search for a program he recently was on.  It should give you much info....