Have you ever tried entheogens?

[Bl1nd]

Hi, I'm working on a project regarding entheogens (although there was some controversy amongst the teachers I decided to keep on going with it ^_^ ) Some things I want to acomplish are:
-Study the consumers' profile
-Proof that their consumption is not related to personal failure
-Demonstrate that all kinds of people consume it (over 40 years old, people with doctorates...)
-Measure the strenght of their effects
-Analize the effects induced  by the consumption of each substance
-Compare the advantages and dissadvantages of each one...

To the point, I've uploaded a questionare://http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=dHB3LWx5WGZiNTdHbklxaEVBWXJybkE6MA with which I pretend to study some of the above mentioned points. At first I only ment to collect 50 responses but I received more than what I expected so I've translated it to english and I'm aiming for the 200-300 responses ^_^

The entheogens that appear in the questionare are:
-Ayahuasca
-LSD
-Psilocybe Mushrooms
-Salvia Divinorum
-Peyote
-DOM
-DOB
-2-CB

So if you've tried any of them I would really appreciate your answer, thanks for reading and sorry if there are any gramatical mistakes.  :lol:

Once the study is finished I could upload here the results and the conclusions with graphics, stadistics, and all that

[dendro]

How can you "prove" that use is not related to "personal failure", whatever that is?

What level project is this? Unless it's for a degree thesis, I recommend you narrow your focus. Too many nebulous goals, poor prospects of success, poorly conceived IMO. Do you want to study the botany and chemistry of entheogens and their psychopharmacolgy, or the people and groups who use them? Narrow your focus, I say.

Have YOU ever "tried" entheogens, Blind?

I wish you all the best with your project. How about studying an existing entheogen church or group, like Daime, if such exist in your country?

[Amomynous]

How can you "prove" that use is not related to "personal failure", whatever that is?

What level project is this? Unless it's for a degree thesis, I recommend you narrow your focus.

I tend to agree with Dendro. If this is a high-school project (or equivalent) there are different (and looser) criteria for experiment and questionnaire design. You don't say what kind of correlation analysis you're planning on doing, but the wording and design can greatly affect the ease at which the analysis can be done. Also, a point of protocol: in a well-designed experiment of this type you wouldn't really be out to "prove" anything.  Now, it may be your hypothesis that entheogen use doesn't adversely affect one's chance of "success or failure," but that hypothesis needs to be keep carefully out of the project until the end (and announcing this to potential respondents beforehand is quite a mistake).  

Also, when doing this kind of research, it is best to use an established measurement instrument, as opposed to just making the questions up as you go. As an example, I once participated (as a volunteer) in PhD research on the affects of ayahuasca consumption on modern, western imbiber, and I think you would do well to read the research, to see how things are done at a PhD level. The main body of the thesis is on-line at MAPS:

http://www.maps.org/ayahuasca/MMPI-2_St ... inkers.doc

Ultimately you would want to measure "success and failure" with standard psychological instruments, and then correlate those instruments with entheogen use. It's not clear from you post that you have done this (if you have then ignore this comment).

Regardless, I wish you well on the project!

[Bl1nd]

First of all I'd like to say that I really appreciate your interest (those 2 answers are far more helpful than 2 responses on the questionare) and that, since I'm not from an english-speaking country, I'll do my best to answer with the maximum correction.

How can you "prove" that use is not related to "personal failure", whatever that is?

It would be based mainly in the level of studies of the consumers and if they consume more... "superficial" drugs like cocaine or marijuana regularly. Ok, I know that personal failure is neither related to your academic success nor what you do to your body. The truth is that what I pretended to "demonstrate", "show", "check" or whatever is that entheogens consumers do not fit with the model that people have established for "junkies" (frequently, neither do they fit with the model established).

What level project is this? Unless it's for a degree thesis, I recommend you narrow your focus. Too many nebulous goals, poor prospects of success, poorly conceived IMO

I don't really know what IMO means :roll:, however I confess it's not the serious it should be since it's a high school project. That's no excuse, I know, but I don't have a flexible period of delivery (neither an excuse I supose). I agree my goals are too general but I found more interesting to make it in a more divulging (I don't know if that's the word.. I mean like open to the public it will be shown to) and general way so it could catch my companions and teachers' atention. So yes, it is for sure not as precise as a cientific/degree level study.

Have YOU ever "tried" entheogens, Blind?

I've never even smoked or consumed marijuana. However I see entheogens as a tool to solve personal problems and achieve personal knowledge; so I'm looking forward to try ayahuasca this christmas, not to solve any present problem but to familiarize with it for the case I need it

I tend to agree with Dendro. If this is a high-school project (or equivalent) there are different (and looser) criteria for experiment and questionnaire design. You don't say what kind of correlation analysis you're planning on doing, but the wording and design can greatly affect the ease at which the analysis can be done.

I see several errors now in the questionare's format of which I am sorry; but I have to hand in the project the 3rd of December and I alrready have 170 answers so if I'd change now the format it would completely lose the veracity

announcing this to potential respondents beforehand is quite a mistake

I think you're right  :lol: :oops:

In conclusion, there are great number of errors in the questionare. However this is my first "serious" study and I don't expect the results to be as precise as they should be. Thank you Amomynous for the link

http://www.maps.org/ayahuasca/MMPI-2_St ... inkers.doc

Which I'll study conciously and will for sure help me in the moment of showing the results.
Seriously, thank you for the answers

[Amomynous]

Good luck!

If this is a high-school project, don't take our criticisms too hard!

[dendro]

"IMO" stands for "in my opinion".  :tea:

[judih]

good luck. hope your teachers are open to your investigations and that you continue to question and research.

[JRL]

I did a paper on LSD for my 11th grade psychology class, and the teacher did not reject my premise that LSD had huge potential totally, just said "but not by unsupervised kids"

[boomer2]

Hi, I'm working on a project regarding entheogens (although there was some controversy amongst the teachers I decided to keep on going with it ^_^ ) Some things I want to acomplish are:
-Study the consumers' profile
-Proof that their consumption is not related to personal failure
-Demonstrate that all kinds of people consume it (over 40 years old, people with doctorates...)
-Measure the strenght of their effects
-Analize the effects induced  by the consumption of each substance
-Compare the advantages and dissadvantages of each one...

To the point, I've uploaded a questionare://http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=dHB3LWx5WGZiNTdHbklxaEVBWXJybkE6MA with which I pretend to study some of the above mentioned points. At first I only ment to collect 50 responses but I received more than what I expected so I've translated it to english and I'm aiming for the 200-300 responses ^_^

The entheogens that appear in the questionare are:
-Ayahuasca
-LSD
-Psilocybe Mushrooms
-Salvia Divinorum
-Peyote
-DOM
-DOB
-2-CB

So if you've tried any of them I would really appreciate your answer, thanks for reading and sorry if there are any gramatical mistakes.  :lol:

Once the study is finished I could upload here the results and the conclusions with graphics, stadistics, and all that

Well Mr. Bl1nd,

First off, the word Entheogens is used when applying it to such practice as that used in a ceremonially context amongst indigenous tribal groups such as Yanamanos who use Yopo  or Jivaros of the Amazon who use Ayahuasca, Caapi or yage or Members of the Native American Church who use peyote ritualistically, or Mazatec and other tribal groups in Oaxaca and other surrounding states in Mexico who use such entheogenic plants such as mushrooms, morning glory seeds or salvia divinorum in a ritualistic setting, or a healing and curing ceremonies.

The word entheogen is not used to described joe psychologist who eats some mushrooms or peyote in his home or outdoors in a natural setting, or Billy down the street who takes a hit of acid on the weekend or shroomie of doomie who eats mushrooms every week.  The word entheogen is not applied to those drugs when they are not taken in a indigenous ceremonial or religious or healing context.

Read the following two papers by Ott, Wasson, Ruck, et al who coined the term on what the word entheogen means before using it in a context that has no meaning since it does not apply in any way or form or manner to the suggestions you posed above in this thread or the chemical compounds you listed as entheogens since they are not.


Below is the link for the five-page update of Ott's reply in the journal of psychedelic drugs that was later changed to the journal of psychoactive drugs?


Part two: An Update by ethnopharmacologist, Jonathan Ott

http://www.mushroomjohn.org/ottsentheogenism1.htm

The original paper by Ruck, Wasson, Ott and other starts on page 4 of this article which Ott wrote in response to those who were misusing the word and had no idea of its meaning.  I think you should read this part two and then read the original article which begins on page four of Ott's rebuttal to one authors error in misusing this word as many seem to do in most drug oriented websites.

Furthermore,
-LSD
-DOM
-DOB
-2-CB
 are not entheogens as they are chemically made compounds in a laboratory and have nothing to do with natural plants.

You really should read the two papers by Ott, Wasson, Ruck and other who coined and created the term or epithet entheogen before using it for such a strange study that most researchers would never asked the questions that you are posing.

The term for the LSD, DOM, DOB, 2-CB, etc is generally a psychedelic compound or a psychoactive or mind-altering compound, or a Researchers Compound. In other words, a chemical compound that is used by members of a drug subculture in a ludible or recreational manner that has no religious ceremonial context to its use whatsoever.

Also, Cocaine is not an entheogen while some may consider the leaves of the coca plant to be so.  Also, I really doubt if anyone in your class has ever had DOM or STP as it is officially known as since no one has really made any since the late 1960s when t cause thousands of people to report tot he Haight-Ashbury free clinic for ER treatment, and at the time, no one new what it was.  In fact, I doubt that anyone filling out your questionnaire would know that DOM is STP.  

The real problem with DOM (STP) is that all the tabs on the streets of San Francisco made by Owlsley were 20-milligram tablets and the dosage for STP is 4-5 milligrams so people were eating a tab and ending up in emergency rooms at local hospitals having really bad freak-outs.  At the 4-5 milligram dose it is actually a very nice high and quite comparable to 2-CT-7.

Sasha Shulgin who originally synthesized the drug in the early 1960s was totally unaware of what STP was until he gave testimony at a federal court case over a batch that was confiscated by the San Francisco Police Department.  After his analysis he realized that the STP was his creation of DOM.  And again, no one on the street had any idea what DOM was, so I find it strange that you would list this chemical compound as an entheogen, which refers to natural plant materials used in a religious ceremonial context and in healing and curing ceremonies.

No one makes DOM (STP) these days or I the last 25-30 years and it has not been on the streets anywhere and if you project is a high school project as you say, then why would you have questions for people over forty who may have done these entheogens as you so called them.  When the people in the sixties and early 970s who did STP did not know its real  initials were DOM?

I would think that you would get an f for failure if this is what you are trying to do as a school project. Especially in High School when the subject you are attempting to say you are conducting is a 4-6 year college level blind study test similar to ones that Dendro noted are done by Maps and other psychological drug studies in clinics around the USA and other countries..

Sorry but I find this a little frightening to think that someone is attempting to write about a subject that most teachers will find as unrealistic and not truthful as to the content of the questionnaires you are handling out.  And the fact that you apparently have no knowledge of the drugs you are asking people about in your alleged project.

One last note, your spelling would not go over good for a grade on your research if it is as bad as what you have printed here in your thread.

And in a Latin name for a plant or a mushroom, the first word is capitalized and the species name is not,  your spelling of Salvia Divinorum should read as Salvia divinorum and any teacher grading a paper would know such proper spellings of plant or species names
Boomer 2

And in general, your spelling is sophomoric

[VajraPirate]

John,

He already stated that English is not his first language, so stop picking on his spelling. He's just a kid trying to prove a point to his teachers and fellow classmates. He should have done a bit more research, sure, but at least he is trying to influence developing minds and their ideations to some positive degree.

He should be commended for this instead of being attacked for something as nominal as his 'sophomoric' spelling, which is quite funny considering he may in fact be a Sophomore in high school. Th fact that he is attempting to do a college level study in high shkewl (oh noes! an alternative spelling, how sophomoric of me!) just goes to show that he has some lofty goals and possibly the proper motivation to eventually attain them.

Also it should be noted that he handed in this paper almost an entire month ago, so I doubt your reply was very helpful (not that I think it was intended to be so, anyway).

At least the other posters were trying to help him. You on the other hand just seem to enjoy correcting him. Personally I don't get much joy out of correcting others, but perhaps this is because I have no need or desire to prop up my Ego.  

Blind, please do not allow such unconstructive posts to deter you on your path to discovery. Most memebers here will treat you with respect and do their best to help you (given that you are also doing research on your own and not expecting other members to just do the work for you).

Let us know how your work was recieved!

[cenacle]

I find the word entheogen problematic anyway. Part of its widespread emergence was the perceived excesses of the '60s and '70s. In other words, it was a way to try and change the subject a bit by changing the word people used. I use the word psychedelic proudly whenever the topic is raised, and I am quick to point out the wonderful aspects of those days as well as the darker ones.

Further, differentiating the plant psychedelics from the chemical ones is also a point I dispute. Like my first point above, it is a question of preference and perspective but, that said, I have worked with all kinds of psychedelics and do not go into an experience based on whether it is a mushroom trip or an acid trip etc. Trips are too complex to simplify to these terms. There are differences but I do not believe they are the prime factor. In other words, I work with what is at hand as part of an overall family of substances, some from the lab, some from the ground, but all, in one way or another, from the Earth via the hand of a person mixing a beaker or growing from soil.

Lastly, while I hold a reasonable amount of respect for native tribes and the shamanic tradition and so on, I do not believe that what wisdom humans can conjure, or what they participate in, or what they collaborate to make, can be said to entirely reside in the jungles. There's wisdom and folly, music and chaos, to be found everywhere that men and women gather, where they reside, when they choose to engage the various mysteries of this life. It's hard work, this life, the learning, the suffering, the mistakes made to be learned from, the inexplicable joys, and the wisest shaman or guru will have his share of struggles as much as the "American Idol" watching boozer. The best we can do, I think, is to spend our hours as well as possible, with open hearts and open ears, a willingness to like what we are, and to try and figure out a little more over time.

I hope you continue to post here, B1ind, you seem like a good fellow Your responses show a person willing to engage serious discussion; feel welcomed to continue here.

Peace,
Raymond

[boomer2]

I think that all of us members here would like to view a copy of your questionaire and see some of the tables and graphs of your results. How many people filled out the questionaires? the age group involved?  How many used one or more of the specific compounds you were interested in quantifying their rewarding or unrewarding abuse.

And regarding the use of the word Entheogens, We can go back to the original worlds which by the mid 70s were changed by Ott who coined the term recreational which in his newer writings he has changed to ludible which implies playful, I will find and post his letter of response as it was a review of his book Pharmacotheon which inspired me to write a page by page, chapter by chapter account and questioned some of his subject matter so I would be happy to print my letter to him and his response to my numerous questions of his written ideas and thoughts that he presented in his chapter, mostly in the section on psilocybine and psilocine.

Also, I think at maps you can find Tim Leary's Alpert's and Metzner's surveys of their results in providing acid, mescaline, psilocine and placebo to prisoners at the Concord State Massachusettes Reformatory for Men which was quite successful but was never considered as a success until both Rick Doblin at MAPS and John Hopkins both presented results of their sureveys and visits with Leary's original participants of the 1960s and of hopkins 7 shroom papers with me in the 1990s also conducted shroom use surveys of students and citizens of Hawaii on campus of the H of H at Manoa, In honolulu and Waikiki.  I have somewhere some of the statistical results of those studies.

Also, Dozens of back issues of both the Journal of Psychedelic Drugs and the journal of Psychoactive drugs have hundreds of drug surveys in their back issues of every major licit and ilicit dfrufs and abuse and use in their journals.   As do hundreds of psychiatric
journals. The page lKeeps jumping up and down when I reach the bottom line of the box and I cannot correct any tyopos as it will not quit jumping around.  Had this problem before. so I am stopping my typing.

john

[judih]

sorry your computer was misbehaving, boomer, but would love to see some of your correspondence - if there's any way to scan or otherwise send an image.

Personal investigation is always legitimate, in my opinion, but using the studies of others goes a long way towards formulating a viable theory.

[Amomynous]

Further, differentiating the plant psychedelics from the chemical ones is also a point I dispute. Like my first point above, it is a question of preference and perspective but, that said, I have worked with all kinds of psychedelics and do not go into an experience based on whether it is a mushroom trip or an acid trip etc. Trips are too complex to simplify to these terms. There are differences but I do not believe they are the prime factor.

I'm not really sure what point you're making here, or maybe I know the point, but I can't see it.

As a point of fact, I've only worked with plant-based psychedelics (for many reasons, the most germane in this context probably being that I like to make my own preparations (even down to growing the plants themselves when feasible) and that pretty much limits me to plants--but it's not a "plants are better" philosophy; it's a DIY ethic I guess). But I've found great differences and variabilities in the various plants that I've worked with. I really don't see how synthetics could be so similar to plants when even plants aren't similar to themselves! Yes there are similarities, but there are differences too, and the only reason I could see for ignoring those differences would be an adherence to a philosophical position. In practice I think one needs to be cognizant of both similarities and differences.

[sandic]

I think that a study like this would only be useful as giving information that would help indicate  areas that would benefit from a serious study.  Even if you're only in high school, I think that maybe your teacher could help you with setting up a scientific hypothesis.  It's important when doing research that you don't assume what results you're going to get before you get them.  In my experience, most people who use psychedelics could be classified as "failures" by the establishment.  That most of the ones I know made a conscious decision to not buy into the establishment, means that whether or not they'd be considered "failures" would depend on your definition and point of view.  I don't really think that kids should experiment with psychedelics, tbh.  I did a lot of LSD many years ago, and I still have some side effects from it.  It actually took a couple of years after I quit before I could even speak a whole sentence normally again.  Drug use didn't actually affect my ability to go back to school and get a degree in mathematics, but a large percentage of the hippies I had hung out with in the '80s were dead by the time I went back to school in '93.  Most of the rest had criminal convictions that would preclude them from having a successful career within the establishment.  Only a handful of us made it through in one piece.  Usually where you find one set of drugs, the others are nearby as well.  Though most of my experiences with psychedelics were very good (as I tended to drop acid at Grateful Dead concerts), it only takes one bad trip to make one not want to deal with them again.