New to Salvia and the forums

[zepplin30]

Hello all.  I am new to the Salvia world and to these forums as well.  I have been doing a ton of research on Salvia over the last few days, and have found many threads here useful and informative.  Thanks to the mods and all who contribute.

So SWIM(Someone Who Isn't Me) has recently became interested in taking "The Journey".  After much scouring of the internet, he decided to order some 5x standardized extract as well as some leaf.  He is planning on starting with the leaf, smoked out of a glass tobacco pipe, once the proper time and mood present themselves.  He is doing this as he wants to gain an understanding of, and respect for, the plant first rather than jumping in headfirst like a youtube idiot.  He is willing to take it slow, be patient, and let the experience find him, rather than being arrogant and naive and...well you know.

Swim is looking for a light experience first to get a fell for Salvia.  He would like to be alone in his darkened room, with no music playing, while laying on his bed with his eyes closed.  However, he could have a sitter if he was persuaded it was necessary, tho, as stated before, he is only looking for a mild experience the first time.

Does that sound like a well planned hypothetical situation to anyone?  Anyone see any gaping holes?  Thanks to all in advance, and I'm glad to join the forums.

[X. Torris]

Welcome!

I'm a little conflicted in what advice to offer--- not that you particularly need it, as it looks like you've been pretty thoughtful in your research and preparations.  I think my advice would be depend on whether or not you have prior experience with psychedelics.

I think many folks (myself included) would applaud your desire to start slow--- it's certainly the safer, wiser route.  But part of me wants to suggest, especially if you are experienced with psychedelics, that you use one healthy lungful of 5X smoke for your first time.  The reason I suggest this: my understanding is that many folks have trouble "breaking through" with leaf on its own, so solid, unambiguous effects the first time may be a boon.  It's not a whopping amount, but should be enough to give you significant effects, so you know what to "look for" in subsequent trials.

It's worth noting that many people (again, myself included!) develop a certain measure of reverse tolerance with smoked salvia, where the more familiar you become with the effects (insofar as anyone can be!), the less it takes to get you There.  I rarely use salvia anymore, but when I do, I mostly use dried, unenhanced leaf, and that's pretty much all I need.

All that said, if you go the extract route for your first time, definitely have a sitter.  Being a little hypocritical here, as I normally don't use a sitter for anything anymore (hard to find someone willing these days  :? ); to be fair, I don't really do anything anymore that would necessitate a sitter.  But I always recommend one for initial trials with salvia after a scare that happened during my very first experience with salvia.  10X extract used in a safe setting with several folks--- we were all first timers taking turns smoking.  Good thing we were taking turns and not all high at once, because one of us started to panic after a lungful, ran outside, got in her car and tried to drive away before the rest of us fortunately caught up to her and stopped her from doing so.  Definitely an extreme example, but pretty damn well illustrated to me how sober sitters are a Very Good Idea.  Not to mention that it's handy to have someone there to take a possibly still-lit, possibly fragile pipe away from you when the effects kick in.

Others might disagree with my suggestion of a limited amount of 5X for a first time (understandably so), but I doubt anyone would disagree about the need for a sitter for a first time.

It's weird, weird stuff, not "fun" but it can be rewarding.  Good luck!

[zepplin30]

Thanks for the response X!  I appreciate the suggestions.  As far as other psychedelics, I have had numerous experiences with both mushrooms and LSD.  Although it has been a few years for either, I remember the effects of both drugs quite clearly.

As for you suggestion of possibly starting with a dose of 5x, I was also considering that.  I have definately read that many people are unaffected by plain leaf.  Knowing that, along with the reverse tolerance issue and not yet being sensitized to Sally, I realize that if I start with the plain leaf, there is a good chance I will not achieve any effects(affect?  hate that word) at all.

Now, obviously, my goal is more than to just inhale more smoke into my lungs, but at the same time, I feel I don't necessarily need a "breakthrough" experience my first time.  I'm a little fuzzy with that term, not knowing if it means just feeling the effects(that damn word again!) of Salvia, or actually giving yourself fully to Her and crossing over?  

Right now, Level 3 sounds good to me.  Not saying i don't want to ever experience the higher levels, but as I said before, I have no problem taking it slowly and waiting to get there.  This is no doubt a very powerful drug, and can have some very positive and insightful results, tho i do feel I need to gain a respect and understanding of it first.

I must admit, when I first started reading about Salvia, I was a bit apprehensive and even a little scared!  But I have done a lot of research and I think I am prepared in the sense that, at least in this case, a little dose of experience can go alot farther that a huge amount or research, if that makes sense?  Not saying research is unnecessary, quite the contrary IMO, but meaning that Im not going to try to know what the Journey is going to be when I go into it.  I am ready to lay back, relax, and fully give myself to the experience and not try to "fight it" or "control" it.  I think going in with a open, clear mind can go a long way.  Tho what do I know I've never tried it!

As for the sitter aspect, I would have no problems getting a willing sitter.  I live with my sister and trust her more than anyone in the world.  She would be my sitter for the first time.  The only reason I was thinking against it was that in my original plan, I wanted to have minimal distractions.  I dont wanna go into it having this underlying fear or whatever of having someone else in the room.  Tho I know my sister would just kick back and leave me be unless she needed to intervene for safety.  Its not like she would mess with me.  Another option is that she could be in the other room "keeping an ear on me".  

Anyway, sorry for getting wordy, especially since a lot of this may seem redundant.  I just wanted to give anyone thats willing to throw some suggestions/comments at me some insight as to where I am at.  

I guess I dont have anything against starting with extract, it just that I want to start out with a level 6 experience or anything like that   :shock:   I don't wanna be the guy who bites off more than he can chew and vows to never do Salvia again!  Tho maybe Salvia is not for me, I don't wanna put it off prematurely.  Agaian, thanks for the comment X.  Any more would be welcomed, as well as those from anyone else.

[Amomynous]

I can't really see much of a downside to starting with the plain leaf. While it is true that some people have problems achieving effects with plain leaf, the worst thing that could happen would be to try a few times and not get anywhere. There is no blame in that, and after a few attempts you could always try the 5x. But keep in mind that many of the extracts out there are inferior, and a "5x" isn't really necessarily any stronger than plain leaf. The Salvia market is unregulated and unchecked, and there are many people selling bunk product, either through incompetence (most likely) or greed.

I achieved pretty strong effects the first time I tried, and that was with plain leaf (but the smoke was harsh and hard to inhale). But that was with good leaf -- leaf that I had grown, dried, and prepared myself -- so there was no incompetence or greed in the equation.

[A little off-topic, but the concepts of "breakthrough" and the S-A-L-V-I-A scale have never made much sense to me, as they don't map well to my experience. I see the Salvia experience as a continuum lacking discrete, qualitative different "steps," and the place that one decides to draw the "breakthrough" line seems arbitrary to me!]

By the way, I never have used a sitter, but I started exploring things cautiously. With repeated exposure one looses the ontological confusion that can greet the journeyer the first times, and without that confusion on seems unlikely to do anything silly. I "trained" my body to lay and keep still no matter what the dose.  But that's just my experience. I'm not saying yours will be the same.

[zepplin30]

Thanks for the response Amomynous!  I visit several forums dedicated to the Salvia experience, and one common theme is definitely not being able to post links or refrences to vendors.  Now I fully see the logic behind this, it does make it a bit challenging for people new to Salvia to find a reputable vendor.  I also found this true when researching and ordering Kratom.

I did, however, find a couple sites that seem to have good reputations with experienced users(I think).  One uses a unique "color coded" system, tho they seem to only deal with extracts and no leaf.  Another clams to be a Shaman, and a third is run by a Salvia pioneer by the name of Daniel.  Hope that was vague enough to not violate any forum rules!

When I placed my order, however, I wasnt to familiar with these sites and used none of them.  I did find one to try and a few things I looked for were:  They didn't use "candy colored bright packaging", they didn't advertise Salvia as a "legal high", didn't claim to "make me a Shaman", or anything of that nature.  Their site looked professional, and their prices were pretty cheap( a fact that gives me conflicting feelings sometimes).  Just one thing I wanted to point out about their leaf.  They claim: "Twenty-eight grams of premium quality salvia divinorum leaves imported from Oaxaca, Mexico. Our salvia leaves contain as much as 3.4 mg of Salvinorin-A per gram, much more than the average 2.5. You wont be dissapointed with these Salvia divinorum leaves.".  So I guess I'm going to try them since the order has been placed!

As far as trying the leaf and getting no effects, how many times would you say to try before assuming that leaf wont work for me(as I understand it does not work for everyone?)?  Im in no rush, yet I don't want to be smoking anything in vein.  Also, if I try the first time and get nothing, is it safe to assume I can try again 30 minutes later or something like that, or should I wait longer.  Again, not trying to rush things, but at the same time, I do feel educated and ready for an experience.

As for the smoke of leaf being harsh, Im not too worried as it will in no means be a new experience to me.  I have been smoking tobacco for about 15 years, and have smoked various other things many times.  The biggest problem I think I will have is being able to hold the smoke for a long period of time.  All that smoking has shortened my breath!  And thanks for your input on "breakthrough" and the S-A-L-V-I-A scale.  Im guessing that will all become a bit more clear after I experience it a time or two.

And lastly, about the sitter situation.  Sitters for new users seems to be highly recommended by those more experienced, and rightly so!  It's not that im trying to put the idea off as unimportant, i just think, personally, I'll have better success at having a good first experience if I am alone in my room.  That being said, I have already decided to, if i dont have a sitter in the room which I definitely still may, I will have the sitter close by in another room listening and being attentive to my situation.

Again, thanks all for the comments/concerns/advice/experiences.  Please keep them coming if you feel you have something to share.  I am getting a lot of good info/advice from these and other Salvia forums!

zep

[Amomynous]

Can't really help you with vendors. I only bought Salvia once -- from Slava, who used to run the "Salvia Buyers Club." He was a good guy (used to go down to Mexico to check things out), but, alas, he no longer sells (he lives in VA, where it is now illegal).  Between the quantity of plain leaf I bought (a kilogram) and the plants I grow myself, I've never had to buy again. I make all of my own preparations (tincture, concentrates, etc.) but prefer quidding fresh leaf that comes from my own plants. And frankly I don't use Salvia much anymore... probably haven't had any for a year or two.  

I'd say give it four or five shots before deciding the plain leaf doesn't work.

Tobacco smoking helps I guess, but it's still harsh. I smoke hand-rolled, non-filtered cigarettes, and I still find the smoke of plain leaf very harsh. But I guess if you had a water pipe with a big enough bowl that would ameliorate things a lot.

I guess I just don't personally go for sitters. I partook of a particular, intense entheogen with someone else present a few weeks ago, and really just felt uncomfortable with the whole thing. I've done entheogens with other people before, but that has a different dynamic.

[zepplin30]

Ya I would definitely be into growing my own, but it's a bit premature for that decision.  But if I find Salvia is for me, I would be interested in going that route.  And now that you said it, uncomfortable is what I would feel having a sitter right beside me watching.  As for vendors right now, I guess its just a trial and error thing.  I'm sure I will find one I like.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you use Salvia anymore?  It's cool if you don't wanna answer, I'm just curious about Salvia use in general.  And yes I have heard the smoke can be pretty harsh!  I only have a glass pipe to use right now.  Not really into water pipes, bongs, and hookahs etc.  But again its going to be a lot of trial and error for now.  I am interested in quidding, and tincture as well.  But that will all have to wait, as another day has passed without my order of Salvia and Kratom arriving.

Sorry if I'm coming off as pesty, I'm just really interested in Entheogens and how people use them right now!  Thanks again.

Zep

[Amomynous]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you use Salvia anymore? It's cool if you don't wanna answer, I'm just curious about Salvia use in general.

No real reason. It's not as if I've given it up; it's just that I find I haven't happened to use it in quite a while.

Salvia is a very interesting plant, but it's difficult to work with. I've had some very profound, moving, and intense experiences. I've had some that I would consider "spiritual." But it's still difficult to work with. It's hard to relate the experience to one's life.

I use entheogens for pretty standard reasons: to explore myself, the universe, and the relationship between the two (especially as it relates to the unitive, "spiritual" ground). Often I walk away from a Salvia experience you think "hhm. That was strange and interesting," but it's hard to figure out what it may mean to me, personally. I've had a few peak experiences where I felt connected to the ground of being, and those are pretty easy to see as valuable. But often when I take Salvia I end up in some entity-infested backwater where swarms of elementals undergo strange movements and transformation, make assertions about the primacy of their actions, and more or less ignore my presence. Interesting yes, but it's hard to think of things I've learned about myself and reality from such experiences, and it's really hard to think of ways that they've made be a better or happier person.

What's more, Salvia can be pretty dysphoric. When I use a tincture, for example, I literally find myself in a puddle of sweat by the end, regardless of the content of the experience (a physiological response).

Don't get me wrong: Salvia isn't impossible to work with; it's merely hard.

There are certain things I take seriously (in a good way, I hope), and entheogens are one of those. So I like to focus and go deeply, to avoid just dipping toes in shallow water. And there are only so many hours in the day and days in the year, so I've been focusing on other entheogens for the past several years.

Regardless, I have some plants that need to be cut back, so I'll probably be doing a quid or two in the near future. And I have some old tincture that I'm curious if it is still active, so I probably have a few trips coming. It's good to revisit things.

[zepplin30]

Very well put Amomynous.  I understand where you are coming from.  I'm sure I'll understand even more in the near future!  I am new to the world of entheogens, and am growing more curious by the day!  If you care to share some of the others you are talking about, I'm always eager to learn.  This is a new and very fascinating world to me!  If you would rather not, no worries there is a plethora of information out there.  It's just kind of hard to make sense of it sometimes as, like I mentioned previously, I am new to this world.  So if you ever do get into a teaching mood, feel free to email me at mailto:zepplin30@yahoo.com">zepplin30@yahoo.com.  Or I do check back here as well as being on the edot forums quite regularly.  Thanks for all the info so far!

zep

[Amomynous]

I am new to the world of entheogens, and am growing more curious by the day!  If you care to share some of the others you are talking about, I'm always eager to learn.

For the past few years I've worked mostly with ayahuasca, which (IMO) take good good deal of commitment to work with in any serious way. Occasionally chemically related things.