SpiritPlants Guest Chat with Rick Strassman (5/5/01)

[TooStonedToType]

SpiritPlants Guest Chat with Rick Strassman (5/5/01)

Eddy     Welcome to SpiritPlants.Com everybody! And welcome to the first Celebrity Guest Chat, if all goes well, we have many others planned for you in the weeks to come. If you want to log this event yourself, go to file, options, logging, automatically log, channels... and strip codes. A log will also be available at SpiritPlants.Com afterwards. As long as everything doesn't get too hectic, we will leave the channel unmoderated. Please be on your best behavior and maybe we can keep it open all the way through. Hecklers, flamers, and flooders will be permanently banned from the server. Tonights guest is Dr. Rick Strassman. Thanks goes out to pkeffect for contacting him. Please fill us in our distingushed guest pk...

pkeffect   Thanks Eddy. At UNM, Dr. Strassman performed clinical research investigating the function of the pineal hormone melatonin in which his research group documented the first known role of melatonin in humans. He also began the first new US government approved and funded clinical research with psychedelic drugs in over twenty years. Before leaving the University in 1995, he attained the rank of tenured Associate Professor of Psychiatry, and received the UNM General Clinical Research Center's Research Scientist Award. Dr. Strassman underwent a four-year personal psychoanalysis in New Mexico between 1986 and 1990. He has published nearly thirty peer-reviewed scientific papers, and has served as a reviewer for several psychiatric research journals. He has been a consultant to the US Food and Drug Administration, National Institute on Drug Abuse, Veteran's Administration Hospitals, Social Security Administration, and other state and local agencies. While living in the Pacific Northwest of the United States for five years, Dr. Strassman worked in community mental health centers for Washington State's Whatcom and Jefferson Counties. He currently lives and practices psychiatry in Taos, New Mexico, and is Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. His website address is http://www.rickstrassman.com He is the author of "DMT the Spirit Molecule", which can be purchased at his website.

pkeffect   I would like to welcome Dr. Rick Strassman to the Spiritplants chat and thank him for accepting my invitation to be here.

pkeffect   Dr. Strassman you have the room.

Rick_Strassman   Thanks, pkeffect. Let me cut and paste several paragraphs from the introduction to my book, and then we can start the discussion. So, here goes.

Rick_Strassman   In 1990, I began the first new human research with psychedelic, or hallucinogenic, drugs in the United States in over 20 years. These studies investigated the effects of N,N-dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, an extremely short-acting and powerful psychedelic. During the project's five years, I administered approximately 400 doses of DMT to 60 human volunteers. This research took place at the University of New Mexico's School of Medicine. The DMT project was founded on cutting edge brain science, especially the psychopharmacology of serotonin. However, my own background powerfully affected how we prepared people for, and supervised, their drug sessions. One of these was a decades-long relationship with a Zen Buddhist training monastery. My book about this work, "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," reviews what we know about psychedelic drugs in general, and DMT in particular. It then traces the DMT research project from its earliest intimations through the maze of committees and review boards to its actual performance. Our research subjects were healthy volunteers. The studies were not intended to be therapeutic, although all of us believed in the potentially beneficial properties of psychedelic drugs. The project generated a wealth of biological and psychological data, much of which I have already published in the scientific literature. On the other hand, I have written nearly nothing about volunteers' stories. I hope these many excerpts from ov Problems inside and outside of the research environment led to the end of these studies in 1995. Despite the difficulties we encountered, I am optimistic about the possible benefits of the controlled use of these drugs. Based upon what we learned in the New Mexico research, I offer a wide-ranging vision for DMT's role in our lives, and conclude by proposing a research agenda and optimal setting for future work with DMT and related It is so important for us to understand consciousness. It is just as important to place psychedelic drugs in general, and DMT in particular, into a personal and cultural matrix where we do the most good, and the least harm. In such a wide open area of inquiry, it is best that we reject no ideas until we actually disprove them. It is in the interest of enlarging the discussion about psychedelic drugs that I've written The Spirit Molecule.

Rick_Strassman   OK. Now with that introduction, I'm open to a conversation with the group. And, I'm quite happy to be here tonight!

atreyu   Alright, the floor is open

atreyu   please try not to step on other peoples toes as they ask and answer questions

camel   i have a question

Eddy   keep it organized please

camel   may i ask a question?

dissident   go camel

camel   How was the n,n-DMT administered to the subjects, and how large were the doses?

Rick_Strassman   We gave the DMT intravenously, after finding that intramuscular injection was too slow relative to what we knew were smoked effects. We couldn't really use the smoked route in a scientific study on a research unit in a hospital. And the doses were 0.05 to 0.4 milligram per kilogram. A 150 lb person weights about 70 kg. Smoked DMT usually gives a full hit at about 50 mg.

pkeffect   next question?

Cloudie    Is DMT, taken this way, very different from an ayahausca session?
 
dissident       Dr, what in your opinion would the drawbacks be of an 'overdose; of DMT

Rick_Strassman   We injected the IV DMT over the space of about 30 seconds. Effects began within 2-3 hearbeats. Peak effects were at 90 - 120 seconds, and started fading at that point. Effects were essentially totally gone by 20-25 minutes. Ayahuasca, on the other hand, is orally taken, and starts at about 20-30 minutes, peaks at 2-3 hours, and is gone by 4-6 hours. DMT is broken down in the gut by an enzyme called MAO, and there's another plant which contains a chemical that prevents DMT breakdown by this enzyme. About an overdose: There's a chapter on our OD'ing two volunteers with 0.6 mg/kg DMT. They couldn't remember the experience. Also DMT raises heart rate and blood pressure, especially' when injected, but our volunteers were quite healthy, and could take a jolt to their heart. Let me address the visuals: There are relatively similar, except for the time course, in IV as opposed to oral or smoked DMT. The thing is that all the DMT gets into your system when given IV, no loss by coughing, so people can probably get to further realms with injected DMT than otherwise. About the LD50: This refers to the dose at which half of the laboratory animals given this dose die. There probably is one for DMT, but I don't know it. It would be an awful lot.

Dissident    thank you Dr

Rick_Strassman   Go ahead.

rem   (in line for a question)

rem   yes

rem   I would like to ask how does dmt relate to dreaming process

desben   bioboy had a question first

Rick_Strassman   Bioboy?

bioboy   you say in your book you think your subjects gained little from the experience

bioboy   Have you thought of studying ayahuasca, which has theraputic and healing uses?

rem   as I had found effects of dmt to be quite reminiscent of lucid REM dreaming

Rick_Strassman   Since returning to New Mexico, and re-establishing contact with many of the volunteers, they say I gave short shrift, or underestimated, the long-term effects. The more I hear from them, the more I agree. I think their experiences, at the very least, established a baseline of conscious experience that they will for ever retain as a new model and standard. I have thought about studying ayahuasca. But right now, this is only in the thinking phase

rem   I would like to ask how does dmt relate to natural dreaming process as I found dmt states to be reminiscent of deep lucid dreaming (I am reffering to ayahuasca)is is endogenous dmt involved in dreaming processes

Rick_Strassman   The DMT dreaming connection is very relevant. Pineal function is highest at 3 a.m., and so is dreaming activity. I propose, in the book, that DMT is a sort of spirit gland, with the highest level of precursors and enzymes of any organ in the body. Jace Callaway, in Finland, has proposed a role for pinoline, a beta-carboline, in boosting the effects of naturally released DMT during REM sleep. Along those lines, we *did* notice that many of our volunteers showed rapid eye movements during the peak of the DMT trance. So, it's an extraordinarily relevant relationship.

atreyu   methos, you are up

methos   What is the relation of DMT to seratonin?

methos   I've heard that DMT can be found in human bodies?

Rick_Strassman   There are structual and functional relationships. The structural ones are that DMT is produced from conversion of dietary tryptophan, via a few intermediary stages to DMT. That's the simplest connection. Functionally, DMT attaches to, and modifies the function, of many different receptors in the brain for serotonin. However, it's not as simple as that, because many drugs have the same effects on serotonin systems but are not psychedelic. Thus, dopamine, noradrenaline, and other systems probably all add up to the final product of a full psychedelic response.

cham   indegenous take ayahuasca when they need it, no for experimental porposes, so the efect is long term, do you consider that makes a difference?

Rick_Strassman   Absolutely. Our setting was incredibly grim and austere. The fifth floor of a busy university hospital in the middle of Albuquerque. However, we were generally just interested in knowing what the drug did acutely, right then and there. Longer term effects, while of interest, weren't a priority within the actual experiment, although they clearly were of interest to me, personally. I think that the intent, and the environment with which people take DMT and any other psychedelic, have as much effect on long-term benefit as any other factor. That's why I'm so impressed with some of the indigenous people's use of ayahuasca. Not to mention the "plant energy" aspect.

Robin_Bill   Having obtained government approval for basic research with human subjects, do you foresee government approval for therapeutic research with tryptamine entheogens possibly opening up in the near future?

Rick_Strassman   Other psychedelics have been studied since I stopped in 1995 ketamine, MDMA, and a little bit of ibogaine work that ended some years back. The only one with an eye on therapy was the ibogaine study, which stopped before it could attain full doses in their volunteers. There's a psilocybin study in the works, maybe even starting, at the University of AZ in Tucson, which will give psilo to patients with severe obsessive compulsive disorder in an attempt to replicate and expand "field" reports of people with OCD getting at least temporarily better, after mushrooms. This study is modeled on a brain-chemistry, rather than a psychological model. That is, it's not the trip, but the serotonin effects that are beneficial. But, it's a start. There's some talk of an LSD study at Harvard with the terminally ill. And there's a group in Baltimore that may be close to starting an LSD study for people with serious drug abuse problems.

Xenonpill   Dr. Strassman, do you have any thoughts on Terrence Mckenna's eschatology theories?

Rick_Strassman   Well, which ones are you referring to??

Xenonpill   The proposed temporal singularity in the year 2012, due to an "ingression of novelty"?

Rick_Strassman   This is a pretty far out idea, and one for which there's been more smoke than heat expressed. Nevertheless, let me add my twist to it. There's enzymes in all our bodies that make DMT. Wouldn't it be something if by some feat of genetic engineering, let's say DNA spliced into a common cold virus, that could get around the world in a few years, containing something that turned on all our DMT producing enzymes at the same time, based upon some sort of confluence of cosmological factors. Now, that would be the end of history.

tortoise   tee he

methos   good question Xenon :-)

alien   so the government will allow tests on serious drug abusers, the terminally ill, and those with severe OCD. Do you see a trend here? Why not test LSD and psycilocybin on the normal and healthy, as you did with DMT? What's the logic behind this?

IES   Rick_Strassman- Are you familiar with Bufotenine and its similarities between DMT? I have a 200mg vial of it (base), and was wondering in your opinion, if it's something worth exploring?

Rick_Strassman   I'll address alien first. There's nothing strictly speaking, preventing studies that focu on enhancing normal function. It's jsut that it's easier for clinical research psychiatrists to first focus on pathology, rather than normal function. It's more of what research psychiatrists are used to, there's funding mechanisms in place, and so on.

alien   well, that makes sense

Rick_Strassman   About bufotenine, I don't know much about it. It's quite similar to serotonin and DMT structurally. Older animal studies suggest it needs to be directly injected into the brain to work, as it's broken down so fast in the bloodstream. Jonathan Ott, however, has been saying it is active by less "heroic" routes of administration, although I'm not current on his latest comments about this.

IES   Do dopamine, serotonin, and epinephrins also need to be directly injected into the brain?

Rick_Strassman   And, of course, I can't recommend anybody take anything!

IES   Oh. sorry for asking such an absurd question.

Rick_Strassman   Yes, neurotransmitters are not active in the brain if there are administered orally or by injection into the blood stream.

piersgib2   dr strassman - in peru i was eventually given yachay by an
ayahuasquero...(phlegm+animal)..during an ayahuasca dieta..this is on the edge of knowledge for me - anything i've missed in new work? yachay is kept in chest and so are hekuli (via dmtsnuff)..any ideas?

Rick_Strassman   There's not a lot of research on ayahuasca in the medical literature. Charlie Grob, Dennis McKenna, and Jace Callaway studied a group of ayahuasca users in Brazil a few years ago, and it seemed quite safe, and those who used it regularly were healthy physically, and more healthy mentally than their "control" group who didn't use the tea.

JonHash         Dr strassman did you study the connection of dmt to melatonin, biorythms and other effects of the latter ? if so what have you conjured

JonHash   or is there a connection ?

Rick_Strassman   Strangely enough, the only hormone that didn't rise in response to a big dose of DMT was melatonin. Everything else went up, including beta-endorphins, vasopressing, cortisol, prolactin, you name it. This was surprising, but then I thought about how important it is that the pineal be protected from bumps off its equilibriu. We were thinking of comparing DMT effects when given in the a.m. vs p.m. but didn't get around to it. Certainly effects in the morning, when we gave it, were robust enough.

rem   1) recently in a court trial of an ayahuasca church located in netherlands many scientists and MD's testified that communal/spiritual use of ayahuasca is safe and can be beneficial-what is your opinion on that.

rem:        2) This is not an easy question to answer , but in light of the dmt /rem sleep connection as well as meditative/spiritual states connection can one place some merit and realness in realities generated by dmt .. is it all a base pipe dream or spiritual truth and a siginificant part of our life and existance

Rick_Strassman   There's lots in your questions. I think in the proper setting, DMT in ayahuasca can be helpful. Regarding the realities, I think this is hard to know. I propose, in my book, that DMT changes the receiving properties of consciousness, by changing the chemistry of the brain. And in doing so, allows consciousness access to realms, perhaps dark matter, or parallel universes, which exist right here and now, but are otherwise impossible to see. There is some merit in thinking along these lines, but I think at our current level of moral and ethical development, it's probably more important to learn what we can from the states themselves, rather than speculating too awfully much on where they come from.

JonHash   as we see from the discussion here we encounter areas as alter realities and question of ethics

JonHash   and other grounds of phiosophy

JonHash   could you tell us about your experience and thoughts ?

JonHash   un charted water in the medical science

Rick_Strassman   One of the problems with all of science, even the science of extraordinary states such as those elicited by DMT, return to "If so, so what?" which is also the title of one of the book's chapters. We can be clever, but can we be kind? We can travel to distant places, but are we any better off? Slippery stuff!

camel   Dr, when you checked back with the subjects long after their DMT sessions, did any of them make claims to the session as being a "life-changing experience"? Or in some way did the administered dose of DMT change their outlook on life? And were there any problems with the subjects' day-to-day functioning after the DMT experiences?

Rick_Strassman   Our volunteers were quite experienced with psychedelics already, although not many of them had used DMT before. Even so, nearly all of our volunteers believed that their first high dose of IV DMT was the most intense experience of their lives. Rick_Stras: For some these were perspective-, rather than life-, changing experiences. No one really undertook many significant changes in their lives. Some people had bad trips, but few if any had lingering bad effects. One of our overdose volunteers, at the 0.6 mg/kg dose, had panic attacks for a few months after his session, but went through the study quite well at the lower dose, and refers to his original OD as ultimately beneficial in terms of altering his outlook on reality and his ability to manage it. His panic attacks resolved on their own, and he's had no recurrence.

Cloudie   my question is about blood pressure medicine. Can you take this with hausca, a beta blocker

Rick_Strassman   Well, I can't really give medical advise. But, we did do a study using pindolol, a beta-blocker, which is sometimes used for high blood pressure. It actually ended up magnifying the effects of DMT by a factor of 2-3 times. The thing about most beta-blockers is that they also block one of the serotonin receptors, called the "1A" site. Most tryptamines activate this site, which actually turns out to be an "inhibitory" site. That is, if you block an inhibitory site, which the 1A site is, then effects of DMT and other psychedelics are more powerful. We got into some dicey territory with pindolol.

rlb   1) As a professional, i have been drawn to personally explore all the major and minor entheogens from low to high dose ranges in myself, including shulgin's major phenethylamine/tryptamine tweaks (4-ho-mipt, 4-ho-det, etc)...have you first hand personal experience with these materials? 2) What is your take on the transformative potential of this type of work?

Rick_Strassman   I never talk about my own drug use or non-use.

rlb   then go for 2?

Rick_Strassman   However, about Sasha's compounds, they are quite interesting, and deserve more exploration. However, my feeling is that with the "old regulars," such as LSD, DMT, psilocybin, mescaline, we have such a wide range of possible responses from them, that we might be better served focusing on ones we know are safe before branching out into ones about which we know so litle.

ouro   do you think dmt causes permanent brain change?

Rick_Strassman   There's no animal data to support brain damage from DMT, and people have been trying to find brain damage for years.

JonHash   Dr. as a psychiatrist, you mentioned people showed REM while under the effect of DMT, now there is a trauma therapy based on inducing REM, and LSD was used to treat holocaust surviours as Aba Covner by a famous psychiatrist which i dont know his name, do yo think dmt has any potential in this field of post traumatic disorders therapy ?

JonHash          do you have any intrest in this field ?

Rick_Strassman   Not a single high dose of DMT probably. However, we did give big doses every half-hour four times in a morning, which has incredibly fascinating effects in terms of people being able to do psychological work in this way. I think it's better than ayahuasca, in as much as you can process in a normal state, for 5-10 minutes, before going back in. I think the psychiatrist was Jan Baastians in Holland, who used LSD in holocaust and other catastrophes survivors, and had some good results, but he never published them, nor did he really submit his therapy to "traditional" experimental design strictures--which I don't think he ever would have tolerated doing.

JonHash   have you studied any anandemide receptor connection though not probable ? ye you are correct

Rick_Strassman   No, I've not looked at anandamide in humans. Just DMT and psilocybin.

camel   Doctor... Do you know of any lasting long-term side effects of the various tryptamine hallucinegens (especially psilocybin, LSD, and DMT) that would effects day-to-day behavior (such as nonsensical outbursts, etc.) And could over-exposure to these substances "corrode" the thinking process in any way?

Rick_Strassman   I think if people are a little unbalanced or unsteady in the first place, using these powerful mind-altering drugs isn't a good idea. And if they are getting a bit unbalanced from using them, I suggest taking a break. Maybe there's other ways to answer the questions that are coming up for that person, which don't involved psychedelics.

mrnobody   what do you make of the fact that dmt is so unique caompared to other compiounds but so similair to salvia

Rick_Strassman   Actually, I don't find DMT and salvinorin A to be all that similar. Probably, DMT is more like the other major tryptamines, like LSD and psilocybin. Salvinorin A, at least from what I've heard, is absolutely weird, and there's not a lot of overlap between the effects of the two drugs. And, Salvinorin A doesn't bind to any receptors that we now know about?

mrnobody   have you considerd studying salvia while it is still legal

Rick_Strassman   A salvia study? Maybe. But I'd need to go through all the proper channels for such a study, and that might be a real headache.

JonHash             i would just like to note that i think that any hallucinogen has a permenant effect due to the memory of the experience which could not be experienced otherwise but after an experience is an integral part of the brain as you can recall it.

Rick_Strassman   Well, it's an integral part of your life, and your memories, which are mediated by the brain.

Dissident    in 'street lore' dealing with psychedelics, it is said that you 'cannot get drunk' while 'tripping'...do you have any thoughts on alcohol use concurrent to psychedelic use?

Rick_Strassman   People seem to be able to drink a lot under the influence of psychedelics, probably because of the generally stimulating effects of psychedelics. However, this probably wouldn't affect the lethal dose of alcohol, although it may affect the lower level effects of alchol. I don't recommend drinking alcohol with psychedelics.

pkeffect   What is the relation between 5MEOnnDMT to DMT in the chemical processes in the brain?

Rick_Strasssman   They are quite similar from a pharmacology point of view. Clearly, though, the effects differ. So, it's a statement regarding how crude our understanding is of how these drugs work.

rlb   a foaf used to have periodic severe migraine episodes until she did her first high dose of psilocybin - she no longer has intense headaches, though mild migraine symptomatology (tense head/neck muscles, low grade pain) remains...any idea of the possible mechanism?

Rick_Strassman   Many of the new drugs for migraine, such as Imitrex, affect specific serotonin receptors, especially the "1D" site. Tryptamines do bind to those sites, although not as tightly as to other ones.

rlb   this seemed to be a permanent change following one exposure...

Rick_Strassman   It's certainly conceivable that psychedelics could modify brain function in such a way as to change headaches. Also, there's the "trauma" aspect to things. People often doubt that one big trip can heal long-standing problems, but then again, one bad experience (a terrible accident, let's say) can permanently affect oneself. Also, there's some data in animals that antidepressants can cause their chemical effects after only a single dose. That may also relate to one psychedelic trip changing headache frequency permanently, after only one time.

pkeffect   You said that DMT is released in the developing fetus at the 49th day, do you believe that the child when born is in a "dream state" even when awake because of the amount of tryptamines in the brain?

Rick_Strassman   This is only a theory, but one I believe is supported by lots of circumstantial evidence. I do think it's highly likely that both the mother and newborn are in a highly psychedelicized state, and there's lots of reason to believe this is mediated by DMT in both the mother and newborn. The issue of DMT and dreams also takes on very weird implications when you realize that DMT is actively transported into the brain. This indicates the brain "needs" DMT for some reason,' as it's expending precious energy to get in across the incredibly tight defense system known as the blood brain barrier. This suggests DMT is some kind of "reality thermostat." Too little and the world gets dull, flat, and lifeless--too much and things get very bizarre.

JonHash          DMT being a very basic tryptamine binds to specific HT5 sites or does he "floods" them all ?

Rick_Strassman   It's relatively specific, but there are new serotonin sites discovered every few months, so I'm sure some of them don't bind DMT very tightly.

weirdo   what are your thoughts on psycedelics becoming a sort of crutch in personal and spiritual work?

Rick_Strassman   That's a real hazard, and I'm glad you raise it. People can start thinking the only way they can "know" or "understand" things is while tripping. There's so much work that needs to be done on testing, applying, and refining the insights gained on only one single big trip, that I can see tripping only every few years and doing fine with that.

Xenonpill   In conversations with experienced meditators, it seems apparent that the 5-MeO-DMT experience more closely resembles samadhi than that of NNDMT. I see this as an indication that 5-MeO-DMT may be a better candidate for a "Spirit-molecule" do you have any thoughts on this?

Rick_Strassman   I've got a good friend who continually raises this issue with me. Clearly, both compounds exist in the brain. Clearly both compounds are highly psychedelic. I think probably both are released during similar circumstances. One of the reasons I chose DMT was that it had been given in previously published human studies, and I believed it would be less difficult to obtain permission to use it, as opposed to 5-MeO. I am very interested in 5-MeO, and believe it ought to be studied more. But, the logistics, because there are no published human data on it, will be more difficult.

rem   Function of endogenous dmt is still uncertain - what would happen to a human that would lets say had a genetic defect that prohibited him/her from producing endogenous dmt ? What could be the ramifications of such "dmt deficiency" ?

Rick_Strassman   I've raised some of the possiblities of endogenous DMT excess already, here and in the book. However, an endogenous defect isn't something I've thought much about. Many of the drugs that are used to treat psychosis, block the same receptors that DMT activates, and if a "normal" person takes these "anti-psychotic" drugs, the world is very flat, dull, and lifeless. Perhaps people with depression have very low levels. That would be an interesting, and easy to do, study, although you'd need some pretty high tech measuring equipment.

JRL   Is anyone currently doing research on psychedelic therapy for addiction for example, with ibogaine?

Rick_Strasssman   Deborah Mash, of the University of Florida in Miami, has a ibogaine program on St. Kitts in the Caribean, for people with drug abuse problems. There's nothing happening above-board in the US as far as I know. There may be also some more or less underground work with it in Europe, although I'm not currently familiar with where that might be.
elfstone   there definitely is...

Rick_Strassman   There's a group called NDA International, Staten Island NY, which is clearing house for ibogaine work. As I mentioned earlier, there's a Baltimore group poised to start an LSD study for drug addicts. Evgeny Krupitsky in St. Petersburg Russia has loads of experience using ketamine for alcoholics and heroin addicts. He's got some good results, too.

Rick_Strasssman   Go ahead.

JonHash        have you encountered binding of dmt to any catecholamines sites ? and also could you please share with us the grounds of your melatonin reasearch

Rick_Strassman   There are some pretty old dopamine and norepinephrine data with DMT, in terms of binding sites being dinged, and/or release of dopamine and norepi occurring through DMT. Serotonin has been the major player, though ,for the last 20 years. The melatonin work involved all night suppression with bright light (while folks were awake) and then re-infusing it in physiological amounts. In this manner, we found that melatonin was crucial to the 3 a.m. dip in core body temperature that is noted in all humans.

camel   Doctor: Is it possible for a human to release more amounts of endogeneous DMT through any sort of training (such as meditation, etc)?

Rick_Strassman   Probably, although that's not been looked at. Mostly people look at brain metabolism by using brain waves, or scanning technology. I propose in the book that meditation can likely raise endogenous DMT levels, as might massive stress (birth, death, near-death), by means of pineal gland activation.

Byrd   This idea of consciousness changing so as to "see" dark matter etc, is interesting, do all mammals have this chemical in the brain? I see how aquantum theory could affect this--not a new idea, but maybe this is why there are reports of esp?

Rick_Strassman   All animals studied to date have DMT in their bodies: brain, liver, lung, spinal fluid, blood, urine. Many plants, too, as you know. In dark matter, the laws of physics are different than those of this universe, so all bets are off about "locality." There's some stuff out there on "non-locality," but I plead ignorance of the field. By the way, the meditation link is interesting. Many people ask me, "Well, can't you just get there with meditation?" And I usually answer, "Unlikely."

elfstone   There is a Thai Taoist teacher, Namtak Chia, who is leading retreats in total darkness for 2 weeks, claiming that endogenous DMT levels are raised by this technique - is there any data you are aware of that would reasonably lead to hypothesizing this as a possibility?

Rick_Strassman   I'm familiar with this, and have visited his website. I think it's possible, but not by the biochemistry he suggests. Nevertheless, all studies show that pineal function accelerates rapidly in total darkness, and in animals, pineal glands get very very big in total darkness. If there is a role of the pineal in forming endogenous DMT, this certainly would hold some water.

earth   I apologize for not having gotten very far in your book yet, but I was wondering if you have worked out in your own mind how or whether any of the various entheogens you're familiar with would be used in a therapeutic context, what problems you think they might best be used to work with, what protocols, etc?

Rick_Strassman   Big question. I think these drugs can stimulate new ideas, new insights, help dredge up forgotten memories, allow us to access feelings, enhance our suggestibility. All those are common factors in any successful psychotherapy. So there's merit in using them to enhance everyday psychotherapy. They also seem to elicit spiritual effects in people, so there's a range of models for that kind of work, especially the 12-step programs which involve "bottoming out" as helping draw out a transformative spiritual experience. Similarly with the dying--one could conceive of a breakthrough occurring involving spiritual elements making the transition easier--but we also must remember that the dying have rights, and if there is a bad trip, there's little time to repair it. I could go on with that for quite awhile, but will let the next question come up.

mrnobody   what is your take on terrence mckenna and his experiences with DMT (and other tryptamines)? have you had any indication that these compounds are telling that the end of time is coming and we better be prepared?

Rick_Strassman   I loved Terence, and miss his passing tremendously. I think it's pretty easy on a high dose of DMT to experience the end of a lot of things, let alone the end of time. Certainly, having practice giving up body, self, time, space has some appeal to some people, for any number of reasons.

rem   In light of your dmt/melatonin research, is working the proverbial "graveyard shift" unhealthy due to the "3 a.m. peak" cycle interruption and off beat light reception patterns ? (in other words - is doing non-day work damaging to one's health)

Rick_Strassman   About the shift-work question: It's not that healthy to keep your pineal dampened down all the time. However, if you sleep during the day (in the dark), for a long enough time, pineal function can shift by 12 hours and you can resume normal circadian function, although out of sync with the rest of us.

JonHash   have you monitored metabolits in your research are there any specific ones for DMT ?

Rick_Strassman   I've not, but there are some older human data, especially by Stephen Szara at NIDA, who found #-IAAA I mean, 3-IAA, a common metabolite. Also there's an N-oxide of DMT.

Eddy   Dr. Strassman, if you have time to stay a bit longer, I'd like to let everyone just fire questions away and you pick the ones you'd like to answer for a few minutes. Then we'll call it an evening. Is that alright with you?

atreyu   ok cham, you are up

atreyu   and then it will be free-for-all

Rick_Strassman   Rick_Strassman: I appreciate your moderating so well.

atreyu   I guess cham isn't asking a question
atreyu   as he/she just left
atreyu   so I guess we will open the floor up
atreyu   and thanks for the compliment
atreyu   

Eddy   Ok, go nuts everyone, and be sure to check out Dr. Strassmans website and grab his book!
Eddy   atreyu: http://www.rickstrassman.com/

mu-ur   did you find in your melatonin studies, that it was also actively transported across the blood-brain barrier

dissident   what do you think of psychoactive chemicals found in animals, and where would you suggest I go to look up information on this subject?
weirdo   what are your ideas on DMT experiences involving contact with extraterestrials?

desben   What's it like? (DMT)

Rick_Strassman   Melatonin probably diffuses across the blood-brain barrier. And, we didn't look at that in our melatonin study.


rem   Is melatonin use in moderate dosage range safe ? what is the moderate dosage range ? is using melationin to boost REm sleep strength a health risk?

Rick_Strassman   The most commonly known animal psychoactive is toad venom from Bufo alvarius. There's lots out there. Check out erowid.org
chatter1   i want to thank the spirit plant people for the invatation to ayahuasca forums
earth   ;]

Rick_Strassman   DMT may change consciousness so radically as to allow access to dark matter or parallel universes.

Kemp   Thank you soo much for speaking with us, Dr. Straussman!

dissident   I heard something about certain fish, salamamders, and even centipedes

Rick_Strassman   Since 95% or more of the mass of the universe if "dark," there's no reason not to expect that it's inhabited.

pkeffect   All are welcome and thanks for being here:)

Rick_Strassman   Looks like people are winding down. I'll take 5 more questions, and then call it a night.
earth   have you read jeremy narby's book or heard his spiel? do you have any opinions on the 'direct knowledge' concept he describes? like what you're saying about the ability to experience dark-matter

Rick_Strassman   I've read Jeremy's book, but haven't really studied it. So, I can't really comment on his "direct knowledge" ideas. Sorry.

Byrd   Does hausca interact badly with they stuff they give folk with drawing from opiates?
mu-ur   do you have any plans for more studies involving dmt or other psychoactives in the future?

Rick_Strassman   There is some information on opiate-DMT interactions, but it's a little uncertain. I'd certainly

weirdo   are there any studies on DMT and pi abilities?

Rick_Strassman   try and keep it simple when it comes to using one drug at a time.
Rick_Strassman   I have no immediate plans for more studies, but now that I'm back in New Mexico, my true home,

rem   Dr. Strassman - do you have any upcoming public speaking engagements in New York City ?

pkeffect   you mean the pkeffect weirdo?

Rick_Strassman   I am exploring what might be possible. It's important that I not make the same mistakes that occurred in the first stages of my research. There are stories of ayahuasca and PSI abounding everywhere. But, no "real" studies showing

weirdo   i mean psi abilities like telepathy

Rick_Strassman   whether or not DMT enhances those abilities.
Byrd   I think it enhances esp with animals.

atreyu   ok, that was 5 questions

Rick_Strassman   I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be hard to come up with "hard" data in humans.

atreyu   I'm curious about the role of DMT in fetal development; how did you come up with 49 days, and what is the significance of that, if any.
atreyu   (and I apoligize if this has already been asked)

Rick_Strassman   The pineal and the gonads are first seen in human fetuses at 49 days. That's also the time that's supposed to elapse, based on Tibetan Buddhist thinking, between the death of one person, and their incarnation in the next human life. Sort of a strange coincidence, and got me looking for what happens in the fetus at 49 days. Bingo--there's the pineal and the sexual apparatus first appearing. Is it a coincidence?
chatter1   how about senseory dep tanks and dmt

rem   doubtful

atreyu   there are no coincidences

methos   sensory dep tanks are great

Rick_Strassman   My step-daughter was conceived on mushrooms, and she looks a little like one. And she's brilliant, beautiful and talented. So, go figure!

mu-ur   dr. strassman, im curious as to if you have any ideas about how spontaneous dmt emissions, such as with alien abductions or other such instances might occur

Rick_Strassman   I'm sure people have used DMT in the tank. I don't know of anyone though, first hand.
Rick_Strassman   Well, the DMT-being-contact connection I go into in great length in the book. I think it's possible that spontaneous DMT release is involved in these experiences--some people may be especially prone to forming DMT, and there may be places (high magnetic fields) that elicit DMT release.

cham   these unknown "entities "seen under ayahuasca or dmt effects are "endogenous" for you?

pkeffect   one more question please Dr. Strassman, What of the matter of new information being accessed in a DMT state? ie.. entities that try to teach

Rick_Strassman   Yes, I know. What to make of that? Is it so unusual to consider?

roach   Doc why do people have DMT in us?

rem   I would like to summarise that questionare the dmt "teachers" modalities of our minds under the chemical or ar they real outisde force

Rick_Strassman   Because it needs to be there, just like silicon needs to be in a computer chip. It's there for a purpose, a function, that only it can serve. In this case, it provides our brain/consciousness access to perceptions that are otherwise inaccessible.

eros   the recent article in newsweek discussed the areas of the brain active during 'religious' experience--any idea if studies are planned for brain imaging while on dmt?

Rick_Strassman   The scanning studies I don't know about what's new or planned. No-one's giving DMT in the US, now, in any case.
Rick_Strassman   Are the "teachers" or "beings" real? Well, they seem to be!

pkeffect   

Rick_Strassman   What if they are? What if they aren't? I think as Terence used to say, "Barter with them. See what they've got to offer." And I'd expand that my asking them "Who is your God?"

atreyu   or if they have one, for that matter

Rick_Strassman   For that matter!

dissident   Doc you are blowing my mind

[JRL]

Do you have the other one with Dennis McKenna archived? The other foot note is that I had been corresponding with Ken Kesy and he was interested in doing a guest chat just days prior to hios death.

[TooStonedToType]

Yes, I posted McKenna at http://www.spiritplants.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=343

That's too bad the chat with Ken didn't happen.

[Indra]

I remember reading this transcript once some time ago, and loved the last line by diss:
"Doc you are blowing my mind"

What an apropos ending.