SpiritPlants guest chat with Dennis McKenna (6/09/01)

[TooStonedToType]

Thought we should try to preserve these.
Did the Ken Kesey chat happen?  Anyone have a transcript?
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SpiritPlants guest chat with Dennis McKenna (6/09/01)
 
Eddy   Welcome everyone to SpiritPlants.Com...

Eddy   Tonight's Special Guest is Dennis McKenna, the second speaker in spiritplants monthly celebrity guest chat series. If you would like to see a particular guest here, contact them and have them email me to set it up. Also, you are encouraged to spread the word that we will be holding these special chats every month, and everyone is invited to attend. Ken Kesey will be coming soon... A transcript will be available after the event at http://www.spiritplants.com/guests/mckenna.html ... pkeffect, please fill us in on tonights distinguished guest.

pkeffect   Thanks Ed For the last twenty-five years, Dennis McKenna has pursued the interdisciplinary study of ethnopharmacology and plant hallucinogens. He received his doctorate in 1984 from the University of British Columbia. His doctoral research focused on ethnopharmacological investigations of the botany, chemistry, and pharmacology of ayahuasca and oo-koo-he, two orally-active tryptamine-based hallucinogens used by indigenous peoples in the Northwest Amazon. Dr McKenna has authored and co-authored of over 35 scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals. His publications have appeared in the Journal of Ethnopharmacology, European Journal of Pharmacology, Brain Research, Journal of Neuroscience, Journal of Neurochemistry, Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, Economic Botany, and elsewhere. Following the completion of his doctorate, Dr. McKenna received post-doctoral research fellowships in the Laboratory of Clinical Pharmacology, National Institute of Mental Health, and in the Department of Neurology, Stanford University School of Medicine. He currently works as a scientific consultant to clients in the herbal, nutritional, and pharmaceutical industries. Together with two colleagues in the natural products industry, he incorporated the non-profit Institute for Natural Products Research (INPR) in October 1998 to promote research and scientific education with respect to botanical medicines and other natural medicines. Dr Mckenna serves on the Advisory Board of the American Botanical Council, and on the Editorial Board of Phytomedicine, International Journal of Phytotherapy and Phytopharmacology. He is a founding board member and Vice-President of the Heffter Research Institute, a non-profit scientific organization dedicated to the investigation of therapeutic applications for psychedelic plants and compounds. He was a primary organizer and key scientific collaborator for the Hoasca Project, an international biomedical study of Hoasca, a psychoactive drink used in ritual contexts by indigenous peoples and syncretic religious groups in Brazil.

DJM   my day job. Check out www.naturalproducts.org. A guy's gotta do something legitimate

pkeffect   I would like to welcome Dr. McKenna to the Spiritplants chat and thank him for acccepting our invitiation.

pkeffect   Dr. McKenna you have the floor...

DJM   Thanks very much. This guy sounds impressive. Who is he?

DJM   OK, well, this chat thing is kind of new to me... I think it helps if you can type like a demon! I'm not so good, but I'll try.

DJM   First of all, I don't know many who are signed on, but I do know one; and that is Jace Callaway. I'm delighted to see him here, because in many respects, he's contributed so much to this work and hasn't been properly acknowledged. Most of the discoveries and results of the hoasca project are the result of his diligent efforts. Welcome Jace! Nice to communicate, even in this weird mode.

atreyu   go ahead JRL

JRL   Dr. McKenna it is an honor. I have two questions, if that's OK... First, I read Invisible landscape and in regards to your theory about inserting harmala into your DNA. Has this been proved or disproved?

DJM   Well, it's proved that under certain conditions in the lab, these betacarbolines and lots of other things will intercalate into DNA...whether that takes place in biology and what its effects may be, I think the question is still an open one. But I do now regard the models put forth in IL which, after all was written 30 years ago, as very crude.

JRL   Thank you. What do you know about Lorin Miller?

DJM   Not much. When I first graduated after doing my initial ayahuasca research in 84, I came to California looking, basically for a job. And it seems like everyplace I contacted; STanfor research Institute, Alza, Plant Biotech, all these places, it was like, "oh yeah, a guy came through here a few weeks ago, raving about the same thing... And so then I didn't hear anything more for a couple years. And then when I was postdocing at NIH, I got several calls from the guy. He was interested in some medicinal application, but was not very specific about just what it was. I urged him to write a proposal, but I never heard from him again. Only much later I heard about his troubles with the patents, indigenous property rights, and all that.

JRL   how can you patent a plant?

DJM   There are all sorts of ways you can patent plants. Patent a plant, anyone?

oghran   Hi Dennis, I was just wondering if you could tell me a little about what you will be talking about in Ireland this September, and if any of it relates to Irish/Celtic entheogen use at all ?

DJM   I won't be talking about Celtic entheogens except indirectly; but others who know much about these things will be talking about that!

oghran   excellent, thanks

stephen   Dennis, you may have met a friend of mine by the name of Robert Gordon (Although there must be hundreds of Robert Gordon's out there). He, as well as myself, are wondering what ever became of the Botanical Dimensions preserve. I have been able to find very little information about it on the web. And if the organization is still alive, how might one get involved? Is there a web site for it?

DJM   Botanical Dimensions is alive, but its state is best described as dormant. So much of BD's fate is mixed up with my family's fate, Terence, his exwife Kat, his children, etc, that its made things enormously complicated, esp. since Terence passed on. We hope someday to reincarnate BD, and in the meantime, the preserve is there, the legal entity BD exists, and we are just going through a transition right now.

dandelion   Dr., how do you see current and future job opportuinhities for phytochemists?

DJM   I think that they are very good. I think that industry is waking up to the enormous chemical diversity that exists in the plant kingdom. As species are decimated, sorting through these chemical librarys will be seen as ever more urgent. It's a pity that we only get around to this while we're about to eliminate 60 to 70 percent of species.

FungusFlipper   Dr Mckenna I have 2 questions if thats ok: First, do you ever see a lessening of the severity of the laws against the use of psychoactives in the US?

DJM   Eventually, I think its inevitable. The rest of the world is moving in this direction, and the war on drugs is now almost universally denounced as a dismal failure. The problem is, the people are always way ahead of their gov't.

FungusFlipper   2nd: Do you see a time when, through genetic manipulation, we could put the mechanism that creates psilocybin, dmt or others into say, a tomato or an apple ?

DJM   Well, I dunno about tomatoes or apples, but I think it would be dead easy to put the genes into something like, say, yeast. Then you could grow vats of yeast that churnched out psilocybin!

FungusFlipper   instead of beer!

DJM   I think that they would not like you if you did this; but I'm confident that techniques available today could easily accomplish this.

JonHash   Doc youve told in an article that the burning bush might been acacia as the north african species are often loaded with DMT. i live in israel so is it possible i hat a goldmine under my nose ? the local species are A. albidia, A. raddiana, A. tortilis and A. gerrardii ssp. negevis or maybe the othe member of the family Prosopis fracta.

DJM   There are a number of N. African acacies which contain DMT, most notably A. nicoleta. I'd have to check my referenc references on some of those others, I'll get back to you.

JonHash   thank you

camel   Dr McKenna, I read your and your brothers' work done on psilocybin mushrooms. I understand that with many psychedelics it is possible for underlying schizophrenic disorders to surface, and cause the user to display symptoms of schizophrenia. Is this also true with psilocybin mushrooms? And if so, how can one know if they have an underlying disorder (if there is a way to find out)?

DJM   Well, certainly if you have an underlying schizophrenic disorder, psilocybin, taken too frequently or at high, repeated doses, could certainly, uh, destabilize a borderline personality I guess one way you know if you' ve got it is, you take the shrooms and if you go crazy, you have it! But, seriously, that's why these things are best approached in a shamanic context Shamanism is basically working with these things so you don't go crazy.

WayaDr   Dr. McKenna...where to you see the public acceptence of your work going in the next ten years...I know that is crystal ball gazing...but do you feel and see your work becoming more main stream and accepted by the public? Where are you going with it from here and how receptive are goverments to the new knowledge that is being brought forth?

DJM   Its hard to say where the work will go in the next few years. I think that for me, the path is to work through the Heffter and other venues to do good science on the therapeutic appls of some of these compounds, plant extracts, etc. And once you can demonstrate a clear therapeutic benefit, then you've settled the issue of whether psychedelics have medical value; and then you've opened some directions for future, more interesting research rather than just treating alcoholics, etc. ,though that's important too. But first you have to lay the groundwork; then they'll let you do more interesting things.

WayaDr   As a Dr....I thank you for your work and look forward to the future..Thanks!!

Xenonpill   Dr. Mckenna, having had much time to rethink the "eschaton" predicted by "timewave" etc., do you have any revised sense of it's actual signifigance? (if so, I would be very much interested in hearing them!)

DJM   Well, the eschaton was always Terrence's shtick, and I've been very skeptical about the Timewave for many years. There are things about the time wave that are very interesting, no doubt about it... but the devil is in the details. I think what Terrence did was probably to rediscover an ancient calendar based on the I Ching. But then without much proof (how bout any proof?), he extrapolated it to a predictive vehicle, something which purported to explain all and everything. And that has so many holes you could drive a truck through it. I think if T had focused more on the calendrical and astronomic aspects of the wave, and not so much with the historical, some very interesting correlations might have emerged. As it was, the only person who could really interpret the wave was Terence...

trade_omlet   Mr. McKenna, on a somewhat spiritual note, I wanted to know whats your opinion about the relationship of the major religions in the world (Judaism, Muslem, Christianity...) to entheogens like psilocybin mushrooms, DMT containning brews etc.?

DJM   I think that there are threads to entheogens (or psychedelics) in all the major western religious traditions. Christianity clearly has its origins in Essene mushroom cults, and Giorgio Samorini has done beautify research showing how these practices persisted until well in to the fourth and fifth centuries. There are just too many allusions, in all of these traditions, to psychoactive drugs of all kinds. So its hard to believe that they were not aware of psychedelics in some form.

RipSnort   Hi there DR., I have a simple question for you tonight, Where did the spores that were sold by SYZYGY come from? Are they from the mushrooms in the book True Hallucinations?

DJM   Yes, those spores are derived (though many generations removed) from the original La Chorrera strain of P. cubensis

roach   Hi Dr Mckenna I was wondering what you think will happen on December 21, 2012? and what is your entheogen of choice?

DJM   I think there will be a winter solstice on Dec. 21, 2012. Beyond that, I have no idea!

Cloud-nine       My question is about drug interactions. Last session we learned -sketchily-that the DMT-harmula medicine interacts with beta-blockers. Are there other suprises for us laymen out there? I mean what about antibiotics? Is this really just a native anifungal with amazing side-effects? Most of us are aware of the "usual" dietary restrictions....btw,

John Hash, good question, I think there was/is also an Arabic incense wit

DJM   I don't think there's much chance that psychedelics interact with antibiotics...

hermes_br          hello DJM i'm very happy to talk to you , cause you and Terence had a very good impact in my life. Question : Is there any research about developing a antidepressant based on the 5-HT agonist mecanism ,like a psilocybin related compound but without hallucinogen effects ?because a subdose of hallucinogens would not be approved by FDA. thanks.

DJM   There is research about to start in Switzerland on psilocybin as an antidepressant. This is partly funded by the Heffter.

JonHash   Dennis you told that cannabis was the 2nd entheogen you have encountered after morinig glory - LSA. And your favorite entheogens are the tryptamine hallucinogens. now i would like to know what do you feel and think toward cannabis, i think THC is very powerful - profound, calling it soft is allmost an insulting. and have you met with Prof. Rafael Meshulam?

DJM   I don't underestimate the effects of cannabis one bit! I think that under the right circumstances and in the right delivery forms it can be a powerful psychedelic. In some ways cannabis is the most profound, because its pharmacology is so complex.

JonHash   and is nontoxic

DJM   toxicity is relative!

weirdo   do you think its possible schizophrenia might be people who have some type of ability to tap into other worlds and cant controll it,and that psycedlics might be usefull to help them controll it?

DJM   Yes, it's possible. I think the territory that schizophrenics encounter and the territory that shamans encounter is all much the same territory; but in one case, one is dragged into it, kicking and screaming, and in the other, one enters it deliberately and in a context which makes it possible to get in and out and remain intact (more or less)

Caulfield   Do you believe there to be any benefit to using psychoactive chemicals in their natural organic forms rather than synthesized or extracted and isolated?

DJM   Only that I tend to favor botanicals over synthetics. Synthetics have their place, no doubt. But when it comes to using "entheogens In deference to Jace I know he hates the word...

Caulfield   so you believe "shamanism" possible with synthetics?

DJM   anyway, if you have a relationship with a shamanic ally, its nice if its a plant...

DJM   There is this ecological aspect of our relationship with these "intelligent" plants; they tie us back, some way, with the genetic matrix of all species, and it's important to maintain that tie.

Xenonpill   As an undergraduate student of the neurosciences, I was wonder if you could point me in the direction of any schools/graduate programs where I could work closely with persons who share my interest in psychedelic research.

DJM   Actually, there are a number of places you could pursue this type of research. It depends on what you want to do. I'd suggest you visit the Heffter web site and then visit the page that lists our advisors. You'll be able to tell what their interests are from that info, then look up some of their papers on Medline and try to focus on a few that are doing stuff you might want to be involved with. It's important to remember that not all important psychedelic research involves giving psychedelics to humans. There's much basic research that can and should be done...

ozarkmark   Dr. M, Condolences to you re: Terrence passing. Do you feel that his extensive use of mind expanding substances had anything to do with his death? Makes me a bit nervous. Thanks

DJM   I'm pretty sure T's use of cannabis and hallucinogens had little or nothing to do with his death. Basically brain can of the type he had is so rare, its like getting hit by a bus... it doesn't happen to most people. If these things caused brain cancer or strokes, I think the epidemiological picture would be much different. For all their dramatic effects, these things are remarkable safe, and not toxic.

camel   What neurotransmitter is THC most closely related to (in respects to molecular structure), and what are your views on cannabis as being a catalyst to a deeper entheogenic experience when paired with hallucinegens?

DJM   I think cannabis can complement many other psychedelics well. The THC molecule, as you probably know, is related to an arachidonic acid derivative called "anandamide" - this was discovered a few years ago,

DJM   it is our own endogenous THC.

mjshroomer   Is that the one referred to as bliss for the hindi word Ananda?

DJM   Yes, that's the one...

JonHash   Youve said the Essenes where a mushroom cult. do you know which mushroom they were using and in what region it was found ?

DJM   There is speculation it was Amanita muscaria; It's a little vague on the geography

JonHash   suposidly israel

DJM   I think the Essenes were an early Christian cult that lived near the Dead Sea...they are basically the authors of the dead sea scrolls.

dissident   Dr, in your opinion what is the identity of Soma, and what leads you to believe this?

DJM   I don't know what the identity of soma is. There's a lot of confusion on this issue. I know Wasson has made at least an interesting case for A. muscaria as soma, but I have problems with this. Mainly that the pharmacology of A. muscaria doesn't quite jibe with the transcendental entheogen that Soma was supposed to be. On the other hand, some claim there is much about A. muscaria pharmacolgoy we don't understand. Processed certain ways, A. muscaria may become quite "entheogenic"

core   Would you agree that the effect of entheogens is to temporarily reduce the filters which normally focus our perception of reality? That altered states of consciousness allow us to view existence more wholisiticly in the absence of space/time distortion perhaps?

DJM   Yeah, that's part of it...the senses are as much filters as receptors...if we experienced half the information that's impinging on us at all times, we'd be crazy, lost in a blooming, buzzing confusion. So I think there's no doubte that the senses filter; And I think that psychedelics don't so much take the filters away, though there is some of that, bot more like change the filters so you're still seeing the same things but slightly (or a lot) differently.

core   Thank you for your insight.

DJM   t'wern't nuthin

Xenonpill   Regarding the presence of endogenous DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in the human brain, do you have any thoughts regarding the evolutionary purpose of this?

DJM   Well, of course the usual response would be that evolution has no purpose, it just happens... So the fact that these things are out there, and indeed universally distributed, should surprise no no one.

Xenonpill   as far as it's role in natural selction processes?

DJM   DMT, etc. are two steps from tryptphan, which is in everything. So its not surprising thate these things are in all kinds of plants and animals, including us!

mjshroomer   Both Terence and I beleived that the shrooms originated in the northeaster regions of Thailand around non nak Tha where human remains were found in association with the manure of bos idicus. Since I travel to Southeast Asia I have just last year found a portion of the bas relief at Angkor Wat where I photographed an image of Lord Shiva holding am mushroom. Do you think the hinduys used these?

DJM   Yes I think john's theory about Non Nak tha is on the right track... there are several other places where neolithic mushroom use must surely have occurred

hermes_br        Dr. what is your thoughts on bufotenin

DJM   I think bufotenine is emerging as interesting. The conventional understanding of it was that it was mostly peripheral, not easily penetrating the BB barrier. Now it appears that has to be re-examined. Under some conditions, it can... it appears. If it did get into the brain, I have no doubt it would be a very powerful psychedelic!

camel   Dr, which entheogenic plant/substance do you believe to have the most potential for therapeutic or psychotherapeutic use?

DJM   To the last question: to my mind, ayahuasca is it. I think that ayahuasca has a complex effect that goes beyond its psychoactivity, and that potentially it could be used in many treatment contexts.

ozarkmark     Can mushrooms lead one to a spiritual enlightenment state? I've had some very clear experiences of "cosmic consc." on mushrooms.

DJM   I think it's clear that, under the right circumstances, they can. Because the experience is induced by a mushroom does not automatically delegitimize it. After all, experience *itself* when all is said and done is a chemical high, the high induced by our own neurotransmitters that we agree to call consensus reality...

JRL   What is your opinion on the efficacy of smoked psilocybin mushrooms?

DJM   I'm skeptical, because better chemists than I tell me that the pyrrolysis of psilocin or psilocybine would cause the indole ring to open and degrade it. Still there may be ways these alkaloids could be volatilized. I should think as a snuff, or insufflated, they would be very effective.

JonHash   doc what is your taste in music what is your prefered band and what is its relation to your entheogen use ? Do you have a band you specialy like or a composer ?

DJM   I like to listen to a lot of what I guess you'd call "planetary music"... primitve music, chants, ethnic this and that... And then I like people like Sting, Paul Simon, hell I even like Dylan still!

Zraly   Dr. McKenna...As sort of a continuation of Xenonpill's question, I would like to ask if there is any research that has been performed concerning DMT in relation to the unused portion of the brain? And secondly, in your opinion, do you think the two could be connected? Or should I say..."unmapped" portions of the brain.

DJM   Well, it certainly suggests there are places in the brain that we don't suspect. I think this is the great promise of these compounds; that they do affect parts of the brain that have to do with spiritual impulses, mystical experience, etc. All of this is being explored and I think the results will be surprising.

cloud9   Dr. McKenna-Dennis-Do you think that DMT is truly a sacred molecule, a means to accessing the spiritual, or do you think it's just a "drug" for altered states of counscousness. I mean are we just playing with our brains and our emotions and maybe fixing them, or are we hooking our heads into Andromeda or some spirtual plane or something? This question begs into the area of entities are they real or just amazing hallucination

DJM   The honest answer is that I don't know; I have no more of an inside track on this than anyone else. However, I prefer to think that it's more than just a drug, whatever that means.

cassandra   Hi Doc, Have just haerd of the new discipline of neurotheology, which has spurned the catch-cry 'hallowed be thy brain'...these scientists have identified pathways/sites for the mystical experience, religious epiphany. Are they allies for cognitive freedom? How can we make them allies, use their 'discoveries'??

DJM   In the case of the tryptamines, they are everywhere; what does that say about nature, and mind-in-nature?

core   DJM, Do you think there is merit to the Myth that the Eleusian Priestess was able to bake psyilocibin cakes ? How could this be accomplished ? 'Huasca has been refered to as the Blood of Christ. Could psyilocibin cakes have been the Body of Christ (So to speak) ?

DJM   Yes, neurotheology, that's what I was alluding to above, but couldn't think of. Their findings are pretty impressive...

cassandra   exciting,eh?
cassandra   optimism abounds

DJM   Alright folks. Nice to visit, and I'll drop in again in a few months

[judih]

This is wonderful!
Thanks so much for posting these transcripts.

judih

[JRL]

No the chat with Kesey never happened. He was gonna be next but we never settled on a day.

[Cassie]

thanks TSTT
:idea:
 ... maybe we can do it again some time

[TooStonedToType]

"maybe we can do it again some time"

It doesn't look like id' be that hard to do.

[JRL]

And if such luminaries as Strassman, McKenna and Kesey were up for it, we should not be shy about who we ask.

Peolple I would like to see:  Owsley, Stephen Gaskin, Ralph Metzner, the Shulgins.

[typonaut]

Thanks for posting this. I had no idea of this aspect of SPF's illustrious past.

Maybe I'd better figure how to chat... be ready for future guests. And talk to y'all, too, of course.

[TooStonedToType]

"Peolple I would like to see: Owsley, Stephen Gaskin, Ralph Metzner, the Shulgins."

That's a good list. Maybe we should put together some sort of letter of introduction to send them.

A musical guest might be interesting.  And could tie in with Spiritplants Radio.    Maybe Phil Lesh?  That would be great!  I think LW has Phil's cell phone number but he denies it.

[JRL]

Phil might want to do it, because he's pimping his new book "Searcing for the Sound" *

*see my thread in the Groove

[JRL]

Maybe someone that goes to the Sacred Elixers conference can line someone up.

[neonaut]

r u going j?

[JRL]

Unfortunately I can't, got 3 gigs over those two days.