fiend

[chadfive]

I think if someone has such a problem with fiend that they won't rejoin the channel because of that, they are the ones with a problem.  Ignore commands work really well as someone else mentioned.

I think the main thing fiend is offensive to is certain peoples ego's.  I could see using temporary bans maybe but I doubt he is going to return if he is banned too many times anyways.  Really I don't see what he could possibly say that would be so offensive to you guys, yeah, he doesn't have any problem with arguing his opinions strongly, he may say something like, taking a specific drug is stupid.  It's not something that should really piss you off.

[kemp]

Apparently you've missed most of what this whole post is about. What he says about peoples drug choices is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
How about the day he spent hours demanding that someone admit they were wrong, because he declared they were wrong? I copied a couple of his comments because I knew this would come up.

[19:54:55] <fiend> yes because you dont want to admit you are wrong
[19:58:59] <fiend> ObOdAoUr, how is knowing what someone is saying wrong and trying to get them to admit it make you an egomaniac
[20:10:23] <fiend> at some point in all the time i've been here when i have not made a single mistake afaik and argued millions of things, never ever being wrong,
 i would've hoped people would just start to trust me
[20:10:46] <fiend> people cling onto their beliefs so much

That was only ONE fraction of the entire argument that went on and on.
The other point that hasn't been brought up is that he has his own chat room and has for a while. In fact, half of the time he spends in #spiritplants, he is advertising it and asking people to go there.
Banning people either temporarily or permanently is how order is kept in IRC channels all over the net. I think ours is the only one that never bans anyone... except maybe now. Why is this such a big deal? Do you keep your doors wide open at home? Do you let anyone just walk into your living room and start an argument? Honestly I don't know why we have admins OR ops in the room if they aren't allowed to use their good judgment on occasion.

[chadfive]

I think it's fairly obvious you've taken something he has said way too personally.  I think trying to get someone to admit they are wrong, even if done repetitively is a really small offense.  And no spiritplants isn't the only place that rarely bans people, I've ran channels or had higher access in channels where it was exactly the same.  It's called respecting someones freedom to express their own opinions.  If the entire channel didn't want someone there, than there is no point to them being there and it'd make sense to remove them.  But that isn't the case here.  I have had problems with fiend in the past and I really dislike his attitude and egotistical tendecies.  He can be very obnoxious and will not back down. But I still don't think he has done anything to warrant being removed.  If it's dissing someones ignorant use of a drug, disagreeing fervently with someones opinion or just going a bit overboard trying to get someone to admit they are wrong, the fact remains the thing getting hurt here is a few peoples ego's. Seriously, if a few people want him to be able to stay and a few people don't, why can't the people who don't like what he has to say just ignore him?  The only reason I can see is you and others want revenge for what he's said that offended you and are using the guise of protecting the channel or whatever to get rid of him.

[chadfive]

Just to clarify what I meant:
Despite the fact that you can ignore someone and no longer see what they type, people tend to refuse to do this and are only satisfied when the person is removed.  They will make many excuses, such as they don't want the person bothering other members and such.  But the fact remains that if you aren't satisfied with not seeing what the person types, you've turned it into a personal issue and are looking for more than just cessation of whatever is happening, you want to hurt them specifically because of it.  I could see how when people like JRL say that either fiend leaves or they do, you can honestly say you want him gone for the sake of the channel, but JRL could just learn the ignore command too opposed to being stubborn and only being satisfied with hurting fiend by having him removed.

[Bushpig]

I think the point is, this chatroom is a cyber home for many...pressing ignore is not an acceptable option...we should not have to!  If someone is not partaking in chat in a mature reasonable fashion, they need to either stop it, and take advice, or as a last resort be removed..of which is thoroughly an acceptable option given the circumstances.  I have been a member of SPF since nie on its creation and I've never experienced anyone come in and act the way fiend does.  That said, if he could act like a reasonable being then I'd have no problems.

BP

[kemp]

I haven't taken anything he said personally. In fact, I told Fiend that I have no problem with him, only his actions at times. Because I defended my choice to set a temporary ban (which is a job I was asked to do), you now claim that I personal issues with him and want to hurt him? How does forcing him to take a break from the chat hurt him?

[chadfive]

sorry i deleted a few of my posts, my thoughts were a bit cluttered.
I wasn't referring to any bans you made in the past, more what you've said in the forum.  and yes forcing someone to leave a channel can hurt them if they didn't want to leave, nothing confusing about that.  I also see no reason why ignore is an unacceptable means of dealing with an annoyance on IRC if there are people who don't want him gone, again I'm not referring to past bans but the idea put forward to remove him long-term.  
Anyways, I still believe what i said previously to be true, people just tend to hide the underlying reasons behind their actions.

[JRL]

No way Fiend could ever hurt my feelings. He can piss me off, but he does that to everyone. But that happens, I've pissed off quite a few myself over the years.

But if Fiend wants to be treated as an authority in his areas, he needs to espect the wisdom of the brethen as well. You say that Fiend is just pointing out where people are wrong, well he needs to be open for feedback himself. Hey, if Fiend layed back a bit he would be a great addition to our collective knowledge.

My problem is with him monoplizing the room, turning it into the all Fiend all the time channel. Hey we all got problems and opinions, but thats it, they are opinions. Sometimes prefaceing something with in my opinion makes a huge difference. And if he thinks enough of us to hang out with us, he should take notice when a bunch of people keep telling him the same thing. The dude has a lot of knowledle but we got worlds of experience in here to draw on, in my opinion to not avail yourself of a learning opportunity is a least as illogical as drinking alcohol or doing meth.

He needs to know this, one thing about me and my friends here, it's a big part of who we are. What it is is distrust of anyone with all the answers, we are antiauthoritarian to a fault. This place is a home for me, my time here is linited and precious. Cyber space is vast, naybe he just needs to have his own corner of it.

[OBODAOUR]

I agree with what JRL said!!!

[kemp]

again I'm not referring to past bans but the idea put forward to remove him long-term.

Ok, now I know you aren't even reading this thread through. I have said over and over that I am NOT arguing for a permanent ban. Please read my posts.

As far as the ignore function goes, the problem I have with it is 2 fold. The OPs can't really use it and still do their job. The few people I have seen use it only see part of the conversation... they eventually get confused because they see someone say something in response to the ignored person and it makes little sense without the whole picture. Then they end up asking why that person said that.... That's why ignore isn't used often. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying it can't be used.
I would have thought you'd understand this problem since you said you have run other IRC channels.

and yes forcing someone to leave a channel can hurt them if they didn't want to leave

Are you kidding me? So a "time out" is hurting someone? Well I can tell you don't have any kids...

[chadfive]

Yes I am reading the thread, I am just not only replying to stuff you've said kemp but everyones posts.  What I have learned from running channels is that bans are totally unnecessary.  In almost every case(not all) the real reason is to get back at the person, people get their feelings hurt/pissed off(if you really want to differentiate the two JRL, I don't) and want them punished.
Yeah, I've lost members in my channels because I refused to ban someone who was pissing people off, because someone can't stand simply ignoring someone, they want them punished.  Half the time they say the same stuff, it's for the sake of the channel, it's a totally unemotional decision, whatever.  Personally I'd rather lose members who say stuff like, "it's them or me"  How childish.

There is nothing wrong with an OP having people on ignore, what horrible thing is going to happen, you are going to miss them breaking the rules and not know to ban them?  How tragic that would be.  As far as the confusion caused by people being on ignore, it can be clarified with a few words, but really it's fairly obvious when theres an ignoree in a conversation.

I agree with your last post JRL, I'm not defending fiend nor saying he simply is pointing out where people are wrong.  I'm just saying that removing him isn't necessary.
Yeah everything you said about fiend is correct, he doesn't respect other peoples knowledge and that hurts their ego's.  

And kemp, when I was put on time-out as a kid, it definitely hurt my feelings.  Punishments are suppose to hurt.

(Edit: Okay I've read through the thread a couple more times to try to understand your guy's views about it better.  I get it, you want a chat room where everyone is friends and everyone is friendly. You'd rather remove someone than have to ignore them.  If it's the decision of everyone in the channel to deal with people in that way than that's obviously how it should be dealt with.  It's just not how I would deal with it, I don't get pissed off so easily and am willing to accept someones personality no matter what they do.  I find huge faults in myself and every single person I have ever met and can sincerely say that fiends faults are no worse than anyone else's, just a bit more apparent.
Psychadelics often help people learn to see this and help people learn to not get pissed off by someone like fiend, but to accept how he is.  You don't even need to put him on ignore, just learn to not be so affected by what he says.  I think that ability will prove useful in many areas of life, I know it has helped me a lot.   But again, it's your guy's community and you all seem to agree with one another so feel free to ban annoyances without further complaint from me.)

[kemp]

A time-out in my family is not a punishment and it's not meant to hurt. It is used simply to teach what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

I respect your view on this and I think to a certain point, that is exactly how we should approach issues such as this in chat. However, when things become very nasty/chaotic removing one misbehaving person temporarily is not going hurt anybody. I certainly don't do it often nor would I to get back at somebody (I don't have time for the games). Not doing something seems like the easy way out of a difficult situation.

Anyhow, as I said I respect your opinion and everyone else here. To be clear, I've removed the ban I set and I'll be taking a break of my own for a while now.

[Stonehenge]

I haven't read Fiend's writings so I can't pass judgement on them. However, I do not agree with chadfive's opinion that people should be allowed to run wild and say anything they want. He also seems to imply that if people are offended then it's better they leave than the person who offended them. In some cases that may be true. A few do have overly sensitive feelings. I think it comes down to what is said.

IMO, personal attacks should not be allowed. If someone persists after being told about that, I see no problem with giving them a temp ban or "time out" if you prefer that term. Name calling is a type of personal attack as are other things that may use ordinary words. Let me give examples of my opinion on vigorous debate and unacceptable practices. The following may make people mad but are IMO acceptable:

"I disagree with your opinion because..."

"I think you are totally wrong and off base because you said..."

The following clearly cross the line:

"You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and should shut up and go away."

"You leave a foul stench behind you wherever you go."

Kemp has decided to let Fiend back in chat. Since he and Syd are the mods of this forum, we should respect their decision even if we disagree with it. But, JRL has said that if Fiend comes back he will leave. Maybe he will change his mind, maybe not. I for one would rather have JRL than someone who only posts in chat. JRL at least does support the forum with his posts.

If Fiend drives away 5 people will he finally be banned for good? Or if it's only 1 or 2, is that acceptable? I don't know the answer. I do think that some minimum standard of good manners can be enforced. Perhaps this broader subject should be discussed in another forum, perhaps the site forum, since it is of general interest to all?

[JRL]

I never said that I would leave the forums, you all can't get rid of me that easy.

Let me clarify my position. I really have nothing against Fiend. No matter what Chadfive thinks, there is now way Fiend can hurt me or hurt my ego. My family and my accomplishments in life are the ground I stand on and it is firm. So if Fiend shows up I am not stomping out of there. What I object to is the atmosphere that Fiend seems to delight in creating. Like I said, I got no time for that, I come for fellowship and intelligent conversation, things that are nearly immpossible when Fiend is on his high horse.

[chadfive]

So yeah, this post isn't anything to do with the issue of fiend being banned anymore.
I just have to respond to a few things.

"A time-out in my family is not a punishment and it's not meant to hurt. It is used simply to teach what is acceptable behavior and what is not."

The reason a time-out teaches one what is acceptable behavior or not is because it's a punishment.
(edit: this made me curious so I did some googling of child time-out's.  It almost always is referred to as a punishment.  Sometimes just as disciplinary action.  There are cases where a time-out can allow a child to calm down or something, but if you are using it to teach what is appropriate behavior, it only makes sense that it is viewed as a punishment to the child.  They do something inappropriate, they get time-out.  They don't want to do the inappropriate behavior agan because they don't want time-out again.)

As far as your ego's being hurt or not, our egos play a large role in our actions and how we view things(obviously), when a person like fiend ignores any input you have its going to hurt your ego, that's my opinion.  (That of course is directed to people who fiend acctualy did this to)