The messenger versus the message

[Veracohr]

Here's something I've been thinking about lately.

I come across a lot of 'psychedelia' related things. A lot of it is music, because much of my favorite music is psychedelic inspired. And in all this, I've noticed a trend toward putting psychedelic substances on pedestals, even deifying them. To me, this really seems like people are putting the emphasis on the wrong thing.

Perhaps it depends on what you consider to be the benefits of psychedelics. I consider the ideas that arise from them to be the most important. Am I in the minority? It seems like most of the "psychedelic culture" revolves around the substances, not the ideas.

It's a fairly common rhetoric in the psychedelic community to speak of those not "in the know" as being afraid of what they don't know, afraid to take the leap, afraid that there are parts of reality they know nothing about. While I know I shouldn't assume to know the minds of other people, I can't help but see these same things within the psychedelic community. Am I right in saying that even people who peek through those doors others won't approach are selling themselves short by focusing on the eyecandy/mindcandy and not the 'deeper' aspects?

Does anyone agree, or am I just projecting my own values and opinions on other people?

[laughingwillow]

Interesting topic, mon.

Psychedelics are probably recreational for the majority of users. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that, imo. While you and I view psychedelics as a tool, others might focus on what you call the eye candy of the experience. There has been some interesting articles I found at MAPS written on this very subject that I've linked/posted here in the past.

The way I see it, we are all on our own path and learn at our own speed. I think its fairly common in many aspects of human existance for the masses to focus on the messenger rather than the message. (Jesus Christ comes to mind.)

However, in the case of psychedelics, I see hope. Any person experimenting with these substances with any regularity, even recreationally, has a fair chance of biting off more than he/she intended and coming face to face with that certain personal aspect deep down inside that they have been suppressing/avoiding/ignoring......

Unfortunately, our culture is not designed to assist/facilitate those experiencing these potentially profound revelations, unless time spent in the nut-hut can really be deemed theraputic. And this case is here to attest that that can very well be be the case. hehe

lw

[Satori]

First of all, very interesting topic Veracohr.
I tend to agree that a lot of people end up being to focused on the whole drug thing, among drug-users. But I think I generally disagree with your way of splitting it up.
It is true, that people in the drug scene tend to attach to the substance, and the mind-candy itself. But where it gets more dangerous, and annoying, is when people attach themselves to the ideas of taking drugs. The ideas of enlightenment that a lot in the drugculture seems to be so hooked to.
It is true that psychedelics can give a lot of breakthrough experiences, where one will find oneself gaining huge insights.
The problem as I see it in that case, is that people forget, as you correctly are tuning into, that these are potentials of the minds, not of the drugs. The drug has the potential of open up to the potential of the mind. But they are not the only potential. Meditation, fasting, sleep-deprivation, holotropic breathwork, etc. are also potential techniques to open up to the potentials of the mind.
People that are caught in what you see, see only drugs as the potentials to open up. And there is often an “us vs. them” idea to it. The us that has taken drugs and understand shit, vs. the them that hasn’t been turned on yet, and apparently understands nothing.
But what is forgotten, is that drugs can also just be for fun. One doesn’t need to use the potentials that drugs have. One can use a drug, and still get nothing out of it. The opening of potential and the use of it is not a forced act from the side of the drug.
Of course one sees a lot of people, that suddenly realizes during a trip, the deep and vast potentials of drugs, during a trip, and ends up freaking out. But this still doesn’t mean, in the long run, that the person has changed notably, the person can still choose to not deal, or develop those insights, and just write it off as “drugs are bad, mmkay” .
So what I basically want to get at, is that, with your line of just “selling themselves short by focusing on the eyecandy/mindcandy and not the 'deeper' aspects” is not the only reason people focus on the drugs, and not the ideas. The ideas can be as big an object of attachment as the eyecandy.

For reasons explained above I then can’t agree with lw’s statement:

However, in the case of psychedelics, I see hope. Any person experimenting with these substances with any regularity, even recreationally, has a fair chance of biting off more than he/she intended and coming face to face with that certain personal aspect deep down inside that they have been suppressing/avoiding/ignoring......

I might come out as cynical, but I see so many people using drugs for just the hell of it, and have no clue, or no intention to use the potentials these tool have, nor, most importantly the potentials of the human psyche.
A lot do tho, but they often run into the problem that Verachor is summing up, they attach to the idea of the drug, and the idea of themselves, ending up almost zealous.
Though, I see a lot of people starting to question, what is the drugs really good for?
They do have potentials for sure, but how can they be used? And are they the only valid tool? And what determines the use of the tool, for either good or bad?. Etc. etc..
I hope these questions will evolve, and start making more users of psychedelic drugs re-evaluate their valid, and their own way of using these psychedelics.

On another note. I see the same problems when it comes to psychedelic litterature. Often the books are only just about drugs, and all types of realisations in relation to drugs. This is what I term an Ideal way of viewing psychedelics. Where psychedelics become the whole, and not just a skillfull means, what could maybe be called an epistemological approach to them not as a whole of an idea.
I would like to see a book, that deals with development of human potential with drugs not as the only important factor, but as a skillfull mean, amongst others.
Of course. The last 60 years has been years of demonizing these substances, so I understand the necessity of writing about their strong potentials. But I Think now, that they will come of stronger as parts of whole, not the whole itself. Then again.. If I want a book like that, I should write a book like that I do enjoy those psychedelic books hehehehe.
Anyway, a lot of questions are kept open. I just needed to ramble some ideas out. I have had the same questions and ideas, and once wrote something about them somewhere.. Can’t find it though. So good to get I out and rethought again.

[laughingwillow]

I don't hear anyone proclaiming that drugs are THE only valid tool out there.

Nor am I sure its any of my business WHY a person chooses to walk the psychedelic path.

I think the bottom line of this topic might be that psychedelic therapies probably have benefits and uses which most people, including many psychologists and those recreationally using the substances are clueless.  

lw

[Satori]

I don't hear anyone proclaiming that drugs are THE only valid tool out there.

Nor am I sure its any of my business WHY a person chooses to walk the psychedelic path.

I think the bottom line of this topic might be that psychedelic therapies probably have benefits and uses which most people, including many psychologists and those recreationally using the substances are clueless.  

lw

I never said anyone in this topic proclaimed drugs to be THE only valid tool. I actually described it in the context of the discussions I meet with people. I happen to talk with other people about drugs, than just on spiritplants .

And I think you are wrong. I read Veracohrs topic more as being a questioning to if he is the only one that thinks people sometimes attaches more to "drugs" than what migh be good for them... But maybe Veracohr can pinpoint it out for us. hehe.

[fuzz]

Great topic indeed Veracohr.

Since this is a topic I have been wanting to write about, here is a beginning thought.
My thoughts meet Satori’s points in quite a few way (so I’ll go and expound on some thoughts), and as to writing psychedelic books with a bit of a new twist to them, let’s do it!!
I agree some and disagree some with LaughingWillow. And, i do think Veracohr is questionning some of the drug community thinking drugs are the ultimate shit and are the way to go, or else you just "dont get it". Correct me if i am wrong, Vera.
And yes Veracohr, I actually think you are a minority. I would guess that your majoriy of drug users really don’t question much about their drug use, and just “do it”, for various reasons.

This note is a little long, so I’ll recapitulate what’s in the note in a few lines:
-Combinations and confused wouplas.
-Psychedelic users are like any other forms, they come with their smiles and assholes.
-No I don’t think psychedelics have the potentials promessed by the over enthousiastic psychedelic users.  



Drugs are tools. As for any tools, you will find as many ways to use it, or not use it, as you have users and non users. As for any tools, it is good to first know what it is we want to do with that tool, in order to use the tool for the best of its potentials.

Some people see drugs as an experiment in chemistry, others as an adventure of the mind, others as a way to meet god and the devil, others just want to get fucked up and have a great time. Drugs are good for all those functions. Then it’s up to the individual to work with the tools given as best they can to obtain the desired goal.
All those aspects of taking drugs are valid. But not all of those aspects should be confused one with the other.

1: the combinations.
Nowadays, days of synthetic drugs, you have all the names imaginable available to whomever has apropriate contacts. From the 2’s to the c4’s to the MT’s and the GB’s, you could make a great rap song out of all those names.
In the old days, the choices for psychedelics were way fewer. You had shrooms, acid, weed and whatever fancy stuff one could run across depending on the circles hanged out in.
When I read or hear about the new generation of psychedelic users and their super combo combinations, I can not help but laugh. I laugh whenever I don’t just think that it’s just stupid, because:
- they are lost in confusing chemical research with spiritual research.
- because it’s a freaking waste of good drugs.
Now, I do not think there is anything wrong with blowing your mind on various combinations, inventing fancy ways to do it, and whatever funny hats during the experiments one wants to wear, but I would not confuse a chemical experiment with a spiritual seeking one.
In my opinion, and from my own understanding of psychedelic use, the quantity or the ways one takes drugs, doesn’t have anything to do with the guarantee of any types of insights. As a matter of fact, it is not uncommon to hear/read that some truly mind blowing insights experienced by many people, have occurred on lower dosage than usual dose, or even on no drugs at all.
So, yes, the wacky combinations can be an exciting chemical experiment, and those experiments can be used for spiritual searches if wanted. But on a spiritual level, those combinations have absolutely nothing to do with the way the psychedelic experience will go and how it will be interpreted laters. That is one of the reasons why they are called psychedelics, because we never can know exactly how the psyche will respond to the experiment. We sort of can use guidelines from others experiences, but the experience is each time unique to the indivdiual, which is in itself unique.

2: the experience interpretation.
Blowing your mind on whatever chemical of your choice is one thing, and the way you will later on interpret and ACTUALIZE your insights are a whole different subject.
Getting vague insights, or super clear revelations about the nature of the universe and everything during a trip is a valuable thing, but what is the real task, if one is interested in any form of self developement, is how the insights are applied and how they are lived in daily life.
One can have all the insights of the world, and still wake up a total asshole is common enough.

Vericohr, you voice out your skeptism about some of the psychedelic community. It is a valid concern, but, why even think that the psychedelic community is any different than any other communities? In it you will find it’s wankers, it’s professionals, it’s morons, and it’s a bit more knowladgable than others, or at least they think so. Why think that there wouldn’t be as many people full of it in the psychedelic community than in any other?

3: Potentials of psychedelics:
I might have a few disagree with me, but so be it. I do not think that psychedelics have any more potentials than anything else to start the awakening process in people. I do not think that because, I do see psychedelics as a tool. A paint brush never makes an artist, only the individual makes itself an artist, by years and years of hard work and practice. A paint brush can help make a finer line, but if you don’t know how to hold a paintbrush to begin with, you’re still going to draw a crappy line.
The real work is done by people, not by any magic chemical solution. It’s about the work done by individuals, drugs being only one tool to achieve changes.

If psychedelics really had the potentials that the hippie generation projected onto them, I’d have met way more  enlightened hippies and general drug users than I have. Now, don’t get me wrong, hippies and drug users are cool and all, but all in all, they’re just like non drug users, they just come with their own sets of questions.
LaughingWillow brings a good point about our modern and current society not being able to deal with many drug users in a somewhat healthy or honest way, psychedelics only being one type of drugs. The point of view society projects onto drug users contributes to the way drug users feel about themselves, and in return, the way drug users act influences the way the general public views them.
(This point brings up to date Grof’s point about Spiritual Emergency.)
People on drugs become: “in” as others are “out”, we are “cool” and they are “uncool”, basically doing exactly what everyone else is doing, that is, defining your “self”. Then in each drug category, you will have the “ins” and the “outs”, each types of users thinking they are doing the coolest thing, of course.
If you’d go in any group, you’d find the same. Whether you’re amongst musicians, fashion people, basket weavers, or drug users.
If society accepted drugs as part of its normal functioning, we would not even have this discussion, because no one would care about what chemicals one puts int their bodies.

This “I am in” versus “I am out” type of thinking, is also usually when the learning stops. By the time you think you are “in”, all you have to do is to repeat whatever it is you did that got you “in”, and things should all go smooth for you. You will then stay “in” as long as you do the “in” thing. This repetition of an action, is not “learning”. Learning is the opposite of repetition.

For the image chose, I put a Salvador Dali painting. The man that said “I don’t do drugs, I am drugs”.

Grof:
//http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/grof_stanislav/grof_stanislav.shtml

[laughingwillow]

LOL I'm not trying to put words in Ver's mouth. That would be funny. Instead, I'm speaking for myself.

And I agree with fuzz that we'd not even be having this certain parts of this conversation if'n drugs wasn't bad and illegal. But even if legal, there would still be many folks who took psychedelics recreationally, ignoring the message while embracing the messenger.

lw

[Satori]

LOL I'm not trying to put words in Ver's mouth. That would be funny. Instead, I'm speaking for myself.

And I agree with fuzz that we'd not even be having this certain parts of this conversation if'n drugs wasn't bad and illegal. But even if legal, there would still be many folks who took psychedelics recreationally, ignoring the message while embracing the messenger.

lw

Ah ok...  I agree with those points too. And it is interesting since it reminds me of an article by Hakim Bey, about why it is good to keep drugs illegal, since then, by doing them, one already in that act has questioned the authorities. Plus some other points about the more "esoteric" side to it, that recent druglaws create. The discussion about legalization or not is another one, it was just to mention that there is somewhat the same point in there.

[fuzz]

Hey Satori, here is the article by Hakim Bey, a very challenging one indeed:
//http://www.hermetic.com/bey/legalization.html

Yup, LaughingWillow. And thats exactly where the new school of psychedelic might slighlty differ from the old school. For some of old school, drugs had to be used for "liberation", "finding your inner self", "becoming one with the universe" ectect.
After the "new and exciting " part of drugs got over, we have to rethink them.

I think a more open and less idealistic way to look at drugs is just that: drugs, a chemical, activated by its user, and translated by individuals.
None are the "good and right way", and none the "wrong way". It only depends on what application the user has for the drug use.

So, all we can do is share insights, hopefully share insights with more, and then its for the individual to decide as best they can.



But if folks just want to get fuuucked up,  i think its also a purpose of drugs, just as valid as meeting god. What i think of it personally, is that i dont like drug abuse, ie, seing good drugs wasted on idiots.
Then again, it grows on trees as they say;)

[laughingwillow]

New school vs old school, eh? I'm not so sure I agree. There have been people doing psychedelics for various reasons throughout history, imo. If being part of that cycle makes me old-school, then so be it.

Fortunately, the "new and exciting" aspects of psychedelic use have never faded for me, as  I primarily ingest these sacred substances in a ritual setting with others of a like mind. However, I can see how folks doing these substances as a purely recreational activity could arrive at that point......

lw

[TroutMask]

Sometimes I wonder about the universe. Sometimes I watch Pee Wee's Playhouse.

-TM

[Satori]

Hehe Troutmask

That sort of sums up the points on how drugs can be taken in different sets and settings i guess;)

[fuzz]

Laughing. Of course psychedelics have been used throughout the ages by diferent folks and for diferent reasons.
I was more refering to the old and new school in the west, which of course is a baby school in diapers compared to other culures and their psychedelic uses (except for freaky shamans of course).

Actually, if i had to make stuff up, and , yes i can   , i could apply those old and new school terms throughout the ages, if i look at them as being the priestely class, versus the average Joe class.
Lets not forget that a little bit after the wacky shaman of the village times, which happened right after we stopped eating our poop and whatever came under our hairy knuckles; when we got to the earliest forms of more organized and regulated villages than inbred families, at that time, the ones that did use psychedelics was the priestely/higher class. It was a ritual, you had to dress up ecetct. Your average village dude sure would get in trouble if it tripped on a not allowed day or for not allowed reasons, maybe even eaten!!!

Trout, Bouyakasha!!
And, funnilly enough, my first acid trip, the type where you become the carpet and loove it, and never want to come down type of trip, we all watched Pee Wee's Playhouse for morning treat. woouuhhh!!!

[laughingwillow]

quote fuzz: -No I don’t think psychedelics have the potentials promessed by the over enthousiastic psychedelic users.

I guess I need to know more about these "over enthusiastic psychedelic users" to understand your point. Is there a person or two behind this strawman? Maybe you could attach some quotes or something.....

After rereading the entire thread, I don't see veracohr attempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater as fuzz and sartori appear to do by minimalizing the potential of psychedelic drug therapy.

Psychedelics have helped me realize that much of what we perceive as fact is indeed illusion. For instance, in this thread I've read bunch of dichotomies which on certain levels I believe are false: us vs. them, old vs. new, smiles vs. assholes, priests vs. average joes, etc..... I contend that psychedelics can help people to understand that most facets of life are part of a continuum rather than an "either or" proposition....

All cats are grey.....

lw

[fuzz]

If this looks like a grey cat to you Laughing, i'd recomend either trying glasses (or getting a new prescription for the ones you are already wearing), adjusting or getting a new screen.