The messenger versus the message

[JRL]

Random thoughts on reading this thread:

Sometimes I watch Peewee's Playhouse AND wonder about the universe!!

Someone said "There are no casual experiments"

Back in the day many people took acid because it was the latest craze, with no idea what it was gonna be about, and ended up haveing life changing spiritual experiences.

To me it's almost like Leary vs Kesey, east coast vs west coast, Appollo vs Dionysus, all over again.

If I had to choose it would be Kesey all the way! Celebration!!

[laughingwillow]

Amen, JRL.

fuzz: Photoshop is an amazing tool. Our minds are similar in that respect, imo.

Nice kitty, btw. Beautiful markings.

All cats are grey...

lw

[Satori]

After rereading the entire thread, I don't see veracohr attempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater as fuzz and sartori appear to do by minimalizing the potential of psychedelic drug therapy.

If that's all you get out our posts you need to learn to read and reflect.
I am done discussing with you. I would like to hear some other peoples input on this. And also from Veracohr would be nice. I honestly don't know what he was trying to get out of this thread, unlike lw...
JRL, as for the Kesey vs. Leary craze... I would chose none of them heheh! And that doesnt leave out either

[Satori]

Back in the day many people took acid because it was the latest craze, with no idea what it was gonna be about, and ended up haveing life changing spiritual experiences.

That seems to be stating a point fuzz was making, about the 60s, when it was all new and exciting. There has happened alot since then, and we are still learning what to do with these substances, and how to use their potentials.
I wonder how it will be when i round the 50s, and then look back on the days when i was young, and what we did then.
I didn't live in the 60s, so I have nothing to really say about them, except what I have learned through our chats, and history books. And indeed, it did seem like an exciting time. But we have learned since then and the attitude to drugs now is different among many people it seems. From what I know and experience in my own generation of young people.
Anyway. I could ramble on forever and ever about drugs and shit

[laughingwillow]

quote veracohr: Am I right in saying that even people who peek through those doors others won't approach are selling themselves short by focusing on the eyecandy/mindcandy and not the 'deeper' aspects?

quote fuzz: quote fuzz: -No I don’t think psychedelics have the potentials promessed by the over enthousiastic psychedelic users.

quote satori: But where it gets more dangerous, and annoying, is when people attach themselves to the ideas of taking drugs. The ideas of enlightenment that a lot in the drugculture seems to be so hooked to.

That pretty much shows me that verachor is saying that there deeper aspects to psychedelia than eyecandy/mindcandy, while fuzz and satori are disagreeing. Btw, I could care less what Vercohr is saying, or what he says when he returns. I'm addressing your comments, satori and fuzz.

Also, I'm curious as to just what do you see as my intention of participating in this thread, as you mention above, satori? (when you mention that you don't know vercohrs intentions, unlike mine.)

I thought we were having a civil discussion, but if that isn't the case, then fuck you, bro.

lw

[Satori]

quote veracohr: Am I right in saying that even people who peek through those doors others won't approach are selling themselves short by focusing on the eyecandy/mindcandy and not the 'deeper' aspects?

quote fuzz: quote fuzz: -No I don’t think psychedelics have the potentials promessed by the over enthousiastic psychedelic users.

That pretty much shows me that verachor is saying that there deeper aspects to psychedelia than eyecandy/mindcandy.

Yes, and where do you see me disagree with veracohr on this? I just added an attachment, an attachment to the ideas, and deeper aspects. It is what can be called samadhi sickness, or sunyata clinging, if we think psychedelics enlighten us. This can easily lead to thinking these substances can give easy acces to enlightenment, without mentioning all the hard work in everyday life.
As a saying goes: "After the ecstasy, the laundry"
I have felt the deeper aspects of psychedelics on mind and body myself. But they are valueless unless there is an everyday praxis to balance the insight and experience into daily life. imo.
Anyway, as to the hippiestuff about being no dualities, and us and a them, old vs. new etc... Sorry to break it, but there is... Proof. This discussion: A discussion needs an I and a Thou... or else it isn't a discussion. hehehe.

[Satori]

quote satori: But where it gets more dangerous, and annoying, is when people attach themselves to the ideas of taking drugs. The ideas of enlightenment that a lot in the drugculture seems to be so hooked to.

Then again. Learn to read. I don't say that the deeper aspects dont exist.. I just say people attach to them. And that is a folly.

Also, I'm curious as to just what do you see as my intention of participating in this thread, as you mention above, satori? (when you mention that you don't know vercohrs intentions, unlike mine.)

I see this here:

After rereading the entire thread, I don't see veracohr attempting to throw the baby out with the bathwater as fuzz and sartori appear to do by minimalizing the potential of psychedelic drug therapy.

Enlighten me then. Oh for I am so silly as to discuss this wrongly and thou! Great laughingwillow knoweth what veracohr wants and not wants out of this thread.

[Satori]

I thought we were having a civil discussion, but if that isn't the case, then fuck you, bro.

The problem is, that you can't read a whole post, and give a decent critique and an argument.
F.ex. I never minimalized the potential of psychedelic drug therapy. I just raised certain issues in how attachments can come about, and as I have seen them come about. You accused me of saying this, without backing it up.
That's not civilised discussing...

Edit: Discussing with jrl on spiritplants chat now. I want to make one thing clear, and I have already written it, maybe not clear enough:
Yes I agree: Psychedelics can be fun, and thats ok! I have had alot of FUN times on drugs, as well as deeper mystical ones. And fun can also be a mystical experience in itself!
Now, hope that is clear. Let's get back to the discussion, right after i have had sweet love with lw, as he is encouraging to in the post above!

[laughingwillow]

quote satori: Then again. Learn to read. I don't say that the deeper aspects dont exist.. I just say people attach to them. And that is a folly.

Now were getting some place. You have actually attempted to address an issue in question, though you still feel the need to make personal attacks on me.

quote satori: Enlighten me then. Oh for I am so silly as to discuss this wrongly and thou! Great laughingwillow knoweth what veracohr wants and not wants out of this thread.

Again, I would like to know what that means? I was the first person to respond in this thread. Then both you and fuzz came along expressly stating that you disagreed with me. At that point, I felt we were having a civil discussion concerning the (perceived) topic at hand. I was attempting to address the points with witch you and fuzz said you disagreed. And on some levels, that doesn't have to have anything to do with a third party, such as verchor, unless it deals with inerpreting his original ideas.

Now, if you think that little ditty here.... "But where it gets more dangerous, and annoying, is when people attach themselves to the ideas of taking drugs. The ideas of enlightenment that a lot in the drugculture seems to be so hooked to."........ is a clear enough statement in english to get pissy when one fails to understand what you are trying to convey, then we really have a problem with this communication.
 
lw

[laughingwillow]

quote satrori: I tend to agree that a lot of people end up being to focused on the whole drug thing, among drug-users. But I think I generally disagree with your way of splitting it up.

[laughingwillow]

Satori: Here is a post I made below with which you disagreed. Please explain how you saw fit to disagree with my above statement in an earlier post, yet claim that you have not been minimalizing the benefits of psychedelic drug therapy?

quote lw: However, in the case of psychedelics, I see hope. Any person experimenting with these substances with any regularity, even recreationally, has a fair chance of biting off more than he/she intended and coming face to face with that certain personal aspect deep down inside that they have been suppressing/avoiding/ignoring......

quote satori: I might come out as cynical, but I see so many people using drugs for just the hell of it, and have no clue, or no intention to use the potentials these tool have, nor, most importantly the potentials of the human psyche.

No offense, man, but when you refute a statement of mine with the one of yours I posted below it, I don't see find much motivation in rumaging through your rambling prose for more insight.

quote vercohr:  Am I right in saying that even people who peek through those doors others won't approach are selling themselves short by focusing on the eyecandy/mindcandy and not the 'deeper' aspects?

I came to this thread to discuss the theraputic possibilities of psychedelic substances. These "deeper aspects" mentioned by vercohr. My response was addressing the positive side of the original coin in question, imo.  

lw

[Satori]

Well, ok.
I was not minimalizing the potentials of psychedelic therapy. What I was stating was just that not everyone uses that potential. And I have met so many people telling me about what is the start of an ego-loss, but been to afraid, and then basically just writing psychedelics off as creating insanity.
Other people don't experience much depth, and ends up in, what Veracohr also saw, the eyecandy. And it is true, I do see many people not using the potentials at all. And as far as hope goes... Well, let's just see what the future brings, I will do what I can to make it more positive.
That is not minimalizing the benfits of psychedelic drugs. That's just saying that not everyone uses the potentials for therapy they have.
That some people don't do that, doesn't exclude the huge potential psychedelic drug therapy has, and I never stated that. You intrepreted that.

[laughingwillow]

I interpreted what I did from your basically negative, rambling posts. Nothing more or less.

lw

[Satori]

You keep on editing your post.
I want to discuss that too. I just added one other problem. I don't see the deeper aspects as freeing in itself. I added that as a problem of attachment too, which i see many people attach to.
That is debating the same issue.
I agree that alot of people have gained great insight on psychedelics, and use those insights very well. But alot of people also attach to their own insights, and it ends up a dogma. Other people gains no insight, and are stuck at eyecandy... And an infinite of other issues, but to keep focus. I generally don't think we disagree too much. But now that these points are clarified I hope we can move on.

[Satori]

I interpreted what I did from your basically negative, rambling posts. Nothing more or less.

lw

The main post in itself is a negative statement that too many people focus on the "wrong", shallow aspect of the eyecandy. So of course i give a critical reply. Not negative, just raising issues in length of that. Some positive, stating the huge potentials, some negative stating my observations that these potentials are often not used very well...