NPR Story

[TooStonedToType]

Not the best story. They interview the mother of the guy who commited suicide and say she is trying to show a connection between salvia and the suicide.  This is because she can find NO other reason for the suicide.  And she is now pushing for salvia to be banned.  Sounds like she is in denial.  I've heard of a recent study that show when parents are treated for depression, usually the kids depression goes away.  That sounds a little more reasonable.

The do present some information regarding recent research into salvia and some who say it shouldn't be totally banned as schedule 1.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5290545

[senorMunz]

I don't think it should be categorized as a schedule 1 or controlled substance. Although I do feel it should be limited to at least 21 years of age or older.  

[Jacko]

Grow one if you're not already ... this one is not long for the licit world.

[dergheist]

What a shame bro, that she is saying this.  The scene that unfolded at the party after the rave in Seattle, keeps playing in my mind.  Before the Nook portal went down yesterday, the real story was being told there.  The media likes to distort anything they can to get the story to sell to the twisted little 8astards that get off on horror, tragedy, and hate.  Sally in the mind of LEO's is just as bad as any drug, yet they forget that pharmeceuticals are drugs and nasty drugs at that, yet they can't make money off a medicine that grows out of the ground. So instead the lobbyist convince all the ignorant people of the law that these plants are worse than pharms. I could go on, even about if they make the plant "drugs" illegal then they should cigarettes also, but I hate to rant to the choir.

Those who know me know that I only use one drug that is considered a psychoactive and that is Sally.  All others I care not for.  Don't get me wrong, I grow many of them, just do not want to try them.  I am mostly into medicinals and the old magic.  

Hanging out on these forums and with drug users however, has helped me to realize that there are three main types of drug users; one that uses them for recreation, those who are addicted, and those that use them traditionally/medicinally.  It is a sick world that would ban plants and not manmade drugs, wake up and realize this people!  It has taken too much for people to realize who Bush is, will it take this much to from Earth to make the people of the world to take notice.  I am afraid if people do not start to go back to their roots, they will soon be forced to do so.  Listen to your plant allies, they have more knowledge than any of us combined.  I do not know where I am going with this, just I am sick of it all and the battles that occur between everyone.  

The women it sounds, like she should be the one trying Sally, heck everyone should try Sally and get a dose of their own medicine!   Sally says it like it is and I respect her for that, just wish more people did also.

[Hyakitaki]

Sally says it like it is and I respect her for that, just wish more people did also.

I think you are trying to say that because salvia takes your ego away completely, it levels the playing field for observation.  All the delusions disapear, hey Bush should really try this.

Still though most people don't like having their ego taken away because their ego is all that they have.  These people seem to me as incredibly self centered and very much so emersed in their own perceptions of reality.  Not being able to adapt and let go accordingly is a character flaw in my eyes, perhaps I am wrong.

Limiting the use of Salvia to 21 year olds seems fair.  Just as long as the lies and unproven "facts" passed to us via propaganda don't start.

[dergheist]

I meant what I said, Sally talks to me, she does not just break me away and makes my ego nill.  I know she has differing effects on everyone she meets, so what I may feel will be different from your experiences.  Her and I have an understanding, and I ask her help for a much different problem than most here and have for a much longer period.  Her and I go back almost ten years now and I only use her when I deem necessary, which in the past year has been decreasing thanks to her.  I do not pretend to understand her completely, and those who do are, in my opinion, flat out ignorant fools. There are many allies in this world but most ask much more in return.  Sally reminds me of the teacher mescaline, and how he teaches instead of taking paths.  I feel Sally does both teaching and showing paths.

In my opinion Sally is as powerful or more than Datura, but she does not ask of your soul.  I like to grow datura for her beauty, but that is it.  I despise that plant for entheo use and feel that at first datura may seem the easy way out, but in the end you will find she is nothing but for the weak.  (That is if you even know how to properly use her) You do not have much control when with datura and she is a forked tongue speaker, from what I have gathered from friends who have tried her and stories I have read.  I know I will probably offend a few here with this view, but this is my view and opinions just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.  

I also feel that anybody should be allowed to use plants wothout age restrictions, albeit I do not condone smoking, or the harshness Sally is treated by some, but no one should be denied of age.  Just so everyone knows, I am most certainly over 21. Sally has a lot of properties that could benefit many.  Forget recreational use, this is not what she is about.  I feel if only used for recreation, yeah, ban her to those under the age of 21, but she has so much to offer why should some lawmaker or a group of lawmakers be greater than the wise ones that created these plants?  Heck most lawmakers can't even distinguish their @$$ from that empty hollow thing on their shoulders because they are too busy brown nosing those that grease their pockets or reputation.

Hyakitaki, I respect your views and your brashness, please  though next time do not try to translate what I say unless you truly know what I am saying.  Do not take offense, as I said I respect your style, just do not try to take my view to resemble yours.  We are individual and unique, which is the way it should stay.  Okay, I am finally off of the soapbox.

[Hyakitaki]

Keep an open mind eh dergheist, it truley is the best way to approach anything and everything...thanks for reminding me

[mykayl]

I agree with Siebert: it should be regulated like alcohol and tobacco. I also think it should be illegal to promote it as a smoke-product without full disclosure of the psychological effects--mainly dissociation, potential for blackouts, and possible harmful behavior when in a blacked out state. The fact that it can make you black out and engage in erratic behavior is reason for concern; any time a drug's advocates recommend having a sitter present for a particular type of use, it's going to send up a red flag. The feds aren't going to distinguish between oral consumption and smoking, because there's no way to police the culture that promotes the latter. Despite the differences in how it effects brain chemistry, any drug that causes a dissociative state and blackouts is going to remind the government of PCP.

Despite what people think, smoking it is traumatic, otherwise it wouldn't cause a dissociative state. Anything that diminishes ego function to that extent is dangerous; the more popular it becomes, the more damaged or ignorant individuals will use it to reinforce negative behavior patterns. We have a headshop that sells it locally, and I've already had run-ins with violent types who were smoking it while walking around looking for trouble. I don't particularly like the thought of some wigger fuckup beating me to death with his skateboard while in a blacked out state, or because the egoless OBE he's having is threatening his machismo. People buying it headshops smoke this stuff like it's pot, and most of them don't know that it can cause blackouts.

This kid already had suicidal notions, and made apparent by his suicide notes, his SD experience reinforced his conclusions that led him to suicide. I don't think anyone should try to play that down, because it gives us excuses to continue promoting its irresponsible use. I fully agree with the curanderos--smoking it is disrespectful to the power of the plant, and ultimately a self-destructive path. I don't know if the kid smoked it, but if he didn't, it just goes to show that it can still be dangerous when used by someone who has problems and no cultural context.

[TooStonedToType]

"his SD experience reinforced his conclusions that led him to suicide."  

Really, most everything you've written is spectulation and conjecture.  His suicide could be connected to his acne medication, his parents divorce, school pressures, sexual/relationship pressures, etc.

[mykayl]

Oh, really? They read his suicide note on TV, and he made it perfectly clear that SD showed him the reality that we're all just specks, life is pointless, and that he would be happy committing suicide. That's pretty clear-cut. You can't argue with the boy...

Smoked SD causes a dissociative state, and it can make you black out and do irrational, dangerous things. PCP does the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if Salvinorin A is chemically different than PCP and stimulates different receptors; the variety of outcomes is the same. I can handle smoking PCP because I'm a sane, rational individual with a healthy ego, and because I've had 20 years of experience with hallucinogens; I don't choose to, but I have the life-experiences and state of mind to get through something like that. That doesn't apply to everyone else that might smoke PCP, nor does it apply to everyone else who might smoke SD, which is just as harsh on the psyche. We live in an isolative culture that is a breeding ground for dissociative disorders; SD used by a wide variety of people in the general public is going to have the same impact as PCP, whether you like it or not. I've already seen proof of that in the youth subcultures of my own town, where it's readily available at local head shops. Despite all the hype about it not being addictive or habitual, kids around here are smoking it like pot, and it's influencing their behavior in a lot of negative ways.

Some wigger asshole almost shot me under the influence of SD because he had some paranoid delusion that I was a vampire and that he was a vampire hunter. Don't tell me that this shit isn't dangerous; it's already become a concern for law enforcement.

You're right; you ARE too stoned to type. Just because something is good for a you and a small group of similar-minded people doesn't mean it's good or safe for everyone.

[greyresq]

Oh, really? They read his suicide note on TV, and he made it perfectly clear that SD showed him the reality that we're all just specks, life is pointless, and that he would be happy committing suicide. That's pretty clear-cut. You can't argue with the boy...

Smoked SD causes a dissociative state, and it can make you black out and do irrational, dangerous things. PCP does the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if Salvinorin A is chemically different than PCP and stimulates different receptors; the variety of outcomes is the same. I can handle smoking PCP because I'm a sane, rational individual with a healthy ego, and because I've had 20 years of experience with hallucinogens; I don't choose to, but I have the life-experiences and state of mind to get through something like that. That doesn't apply to everyone else that might smoke PCP, nor does it apply to everyone else who might smoke SD, which is just as harsh on the psyche. We live in an isolative culture that is a breeding ground for dissociative disorders; SD used by a wide variety of people in the general public is going to have the same impact as PCP, whether you like it or not. I've already seen proof of that in the youth subcultures of my own town, where it's readily available at local head shops. Despite all the hype about it not being addictive or habitual, kids around here are smoking it like pot, and it's influencing their behavior in a lot of negative ways.

Some wigger asshole almost shot me under the influence of SD because he had some paranoid delusion that I was a vampire and that he was a vampire hunter. Don't tell me that this shit isn't dangerous; it's already become a concern for law enforcement.

You're right; you ARE too stoned to type. Just because something is good for a you and a small group of similar-minded people doesn't mean it's good or safe for everyone.

Tragic as it may be this kid was destined to commit suicide.  Whether he was smoking SD or not.  It's always the same old shit..."he never showed any signs, he had straight A's in school...blah, blah, blah."  No one really knew what was going on inside his mind but he was going to attempt it regardless.  The thoughts were already present in his mind before smoking.

There's always going to be people out there who "can't handle" what they're doing at the time, whether they're under the influence of something or not.  Whether it's driving a car on a rainy day or the pressures forced upon us at work or with family.  This kid couldn't handle it and decided the best method was to get out by ending his life.

I ask you...How many times have you been fed up with how things have been going on in your life?  What do you do to relieve the stress or take your mind to another place?  Drink a few beers/glass of wine?  Take a couple of bong hits?  Hit the gym, exercise?  Just a few examples of what people do to take the edge off on a daily basis.  So many options out there yet the weak minded see things as hopeless.

[mykayl]

Not everyone has self control like you and I; that's why there's laws regulating who can buy alcohol, tobacco, etc., and laws about disclosure of health risks. Besides, you don't know that he would have committed suicide if he hadn't taken SD; My mother has bipolar disorder and suicidal thoughts, but instead of self-medicating with drugs that could exacerbate her low self-esteem, she got help and is still alive and functional today.

Everything indicates that yes, SD played a factor in his decision. If you can't see that, then you have some serious denial issues. Additionally, I haven't seen any indication anywhere that he had a verifiable history of suicidal thought prior to his use of SD, so unless you can show me a news report of some shrink saying he had suicidal thoughts prior to any drug use, we can never really know that for sure. The only thing we have is his journal entry and his suicide note, which was merely an extension of the thoughts he expressed in his journal; ergo, from the available evidence, we can only conclude that SD drove him to his death. Going by what he wrote, his conclusion came rather suddenly, after discovering some "universal truth" while under the influence of SD; one that he claims took his whole life to arrive at, because prior to his 17th year, he didn't have this wonderful, truth-telling plant in his life. Even with proof of prior suicidal thoughts, it still doesn't prove that potent, mind altering drugs weren't a factor in his final decision.

The fact is, he shouldn't have had access to something that powerful without full disclosure of the psychological and medical risks, nor should he have had access to it before the age of 21. At the very least, this sort of thing demands commercial regulation. Sure, it's illegal to suck down a bottle of robitussin to get high, but at least people daring enough to do so know the health risks.

I don't care what it does to YOU, or how YOU handle things; some people can't. Thats why prohibitive laws exist: to protect people like you and me from ignorant, arrogant kids who like to walk around stoned on potentially dangerous substances with guns in their pockets. What don't you understand about that? If you had a choice, would you sell a gun to someone with a history of crime, instability and criminal intent, or allow the government to be lax on regulating who gets guns? Would you hand a known enemy a knife, and trust him to do the right thing? Would you give a bottle of poison to your young child without informing him of the danger, and trust that he won't drink down the whole bottle the minute you turn your back? How about tobacco--did you know that cigarettes were once sold as a cough and congestion remedy? Aren't you glad that today's laws prohibit the tobacco industry from filling our heads wih those sorts of pipe-dreams?

Putting all idealistic notions aside, there's a thing called social and economic responsibility. Did you know that if I'm a landlord and I knowingly rent a property to someone who intentionally ingests chemicals that could make him black out and do rash things {i.e., someone who has to have 4 or 5 sitters around because he smokes way too much SD}, that person becomes an insurance liability to me, because I had foreknowledge of his destructive behavior? It doesn't matter that it's legal; if the insurance company finds out I knew and encouraged his use of mind-altering chemicals that made him trash my place in a blacked-out state, I lose my insurance claim, just like if I invited a known drunk with a criminal history to live in my property. Do you really think that there are no legal ramifications to this? Why do you think hotels ask for huge security deposits from rock bands? Generally speaking, insurance doesn't cover consent to reckless behavior.

Even Siebert claims that smoking SD puts the brain on "automatic", and that people see things within their own subconscious that they often misinterpret as objective, external experiences because their conscious mind {the ego} is not fully functioning under the influence of salvinorin A. In other words, it puts you in a waking dream, in which you may not be capable of distinguishing reality from fantasy, just like PCP. Despite the sense of heightened consciousness, the reality is that it puts people in a drunken stupor. Just like with alcohol or PCP, it can make you black out and do or say crazy shit that other people end up having to pay for; ergo, it should be handled with the same regulatory kid-gloves.

Even if it's outlawed in all 50 states, it would insure some sort of responsibility, because the availability factor kicks in. Who is going to buy something rare {and therefore way too expensive} if they can get the same effects eating shrooms or dropping acid, with a longer lasting trip? Only serious individuals with a traditional context would bother to use it, and only because they're growing it themselves. That's better than some kid with suicidal or homicidal tendencies smoking it because it was made readily available to every Tom, Dick and Harry...

The blame isn't on the drug, it's on the culture that is popularizing its irresponsible use, and on the perpetuation of the false notion that it's harmless for everyone who might use it. You can't make that culture go away, nor can you force your idealized culture of responsibility on everyone, due to a little thing called diversity of the species. People who act like lesser animals must be treated like lesser animals, lest they steal away your life. That's just the basic law of survival. I didn't write the Book of Life, bro, it's just the way things are. For ALL of us...

[dergheist]

I have to agree with Mykayl to a point guys.  I have had Sally as an ally for nine years, and I do not condone smoking her, yet I will not hate ya for it if you do.  What concerns me is the fact of all the newbies that have heard vaguely of her and are willing to go at her smoking 10x or higher!  I must say that it is a shame that this or any plant is regulated, but I am torn between idiot lawmakers and idiots abusing her.  Sally will always as all allys, be abused by some and very few will use her as she is meant, but who am I to say that any plant should be illegal.  If some fool dies from using her, good, one less idiot in the world.  Sounds cruel, but isn't that nature's way of weeding out the bad?  I think that the threats should be made known, but the plant should not be illegal, only restricted to those of 21 and older.  The plant does have a medicinal side to her also, and in fact helps with depression and I can attest to this first hand.  Some refer to the anti-depression effect as the afterglow, but that is only words.  All I know is I do not give a damn when she is made illegal, as I will continue keeping her as an ally. Just my two cents.

[TooStonedToType]

To ignore the dangers is foolish, like selling the stuff as incense and super xxx extractions - - - however by publishing the truth, it is only used against this harmless plant.

Currently in Colorado there is a push to treat marijuana they do alchohol.  This makes sense to me.  That is it is legal for those over 21 or with ones parents permission (This is an important Constitutional issue).  Saliva should be treated the same - - - if there really is such a concern to protect the children.

[senorsalvia]

Whew, what a thread.   I must ring in here with a few observations concerning what others here have put forth as 'fact'.... Seems to me that there are a few general schools of though concerning Salvia usage, as well as the herbs effect....  Some refer to the disaccociative effects as being more or less a PCP type experience....  I say (just my own subjective take, of course), that the Salvia experience is way, way, removed from PCP...  (Yes, I've experience both in high dosage) ...  Wheras my few PCP outings have always had me regretting my ingestion; Sally called to me instantly....  PCP had me in an altered state in which, besides the otherworldly visuals, I felt an almost prevading sense of resentment/anger/and rage... (not acted upon, however)....  Salvia does take me to a highly altered state, but one that I inately sense to be benevolent/healing/educational..  One I crave to mine for its beckonong intristic riches.....   For me, the Kappa Opoid Sal A is firing receptors a world removed from PCP.....    As far as Shamanism/smoking/quidding and the rest....  I have nothing of value to add, though I submit that whatever path one travels; if the end result is of benefit, then that path is completely right and good, and If that flies in the face of traditionalism and historic precedent, then fine, so what and so be it......  sal