NPR Story

[TooStonedToType]

I can't find a reliable source, but it seems Brett's journal entry contained the thoughts about salvia.  This was written some time before the suicide.  I can't find anywhere where the actual suicide note mentions salvia.  Are these published somewhere?

[mykayl]

These are some cool responses! Dergheist, I totally agree with you on all points. Too stoned to type, I apologize for coming across so harsh; I wasn't trying to start an argument or knock your idealism, just trying to move things to a middle ground. As for protection of children, I think that's valid, but I think lawmakers are looking out more for the interests of responsible adults who might end up on the wrong end of a gun, knife or car. I read what you wrote about the sitch in Colorado, and I think that's totally awesome; I hope it happens everywhere, as a matter of federal law.

As for the diary and note, on TV they read an excerpt from the note that mentions the truth he learned from salvia, and questioning how he could go on living knowing that truth {the pointlessness of life mentioned in his diary, but not directly mentioned in the note, if I remember correctly}. He even mentions that he can't go into detail about what he learned because it would bring chaos into other's lives; he apparently wasn't expecting anyone to read his diary entries. As for the note, it's longer in its entirety than the sound bytes would have us believe; I've heard one reading mentioning salvia's "truth" and the resolve to end his life, and another that only mentions his taking 17 years to learn the secret of life. The print versions are equally compartmentalized, leaving out important details.

Just from what I've seen from an array of TV and in print articles, I'd have to sadly agree that it's a clear-cut case. Even if it's blurred hype and they could somehow prove that it had nothing to do with his decision to end his life, I still think it needs regulation just because of my own experiences with reckless users; I haven't seen anything on the news about those types of incidents, but knowing the state of things, I'm pretty sure it goes on a lot more than we know. Like the lawmakers, I'm more concerned about the social impact than whether or not it influences someone to discreetly end their own life.

The woman who introduced the bill even made that point about the need to regulate anything that could influence a person to jump out a window, drive recklessly or commit acts of assault or murder. I don't agree with her sweeping solution, but I can at least agree with her on her reasons. I was getting stoned with some people in a third story apartment once, and one of them was on acid and thought aliens were invading the building. He jumped off the balcony and ran off. We found him and he came down okay, but having no way of knowing his state of mind, we couldn't foresee his actions in time to prevent him from jumping. He's very fortunate that he didn't hurt himself, and others are fortunate that he didn't try to kill anyone while under his drug-induced delusion of alien invaders. Anything that can do that to the mind needs careful consideration.

Senorsalvia, I'll agree with you that not all people react to it like PCP, but there are many who do, myself included when I smoke it. I don't get the same type of ambience I get on PCP, but I definitely get the paranoia, feeling like a robot, everything looking like plastic and bulging to an insane degree, and feeling more homicidal than fantasy usually allows for. I think that has more to do with a person's biochemistry and resulting psychological temperament than anything. I've read other people's testimonies of feeling agitated when around other people on SD, and I understand that it could turn into a bad thing if used by a person who for whatever reason lacks self-control.

The funny thing is that I smoked some SD a few weeks after that kid threatened my life while on it. My thoughts went directly to him, and I became bent on destroying him any way I could the next time I saw him in public. Of course that never happened, and I calmed down that reactive thought process over several weeks, but it goes to show how it can affect some people who normally wouldn't even follow a thought process to such depths. I think I definitely would have lost my self-control if I'd chosen to continue smoking it.

This has been an interesting and challenging discussion.

Zedrov y bogat ko vesa om vam {health and wealth to all of you}

[TooStonedToType]

"Just from what I've seen from an array of TV and in print articles..."

You know you can't believe everything you read and see on TV.  These stories have obviously been slanted to promote certain political agendas.  You, yourself, mistook an old journal entry for Brett's suicide note due to the way it was presented by television.  No, you don't remember correctly, and there is a reason for it, you weren't suppose to.  The tv just wanted you to remember salvia was bad.

I still can't find transcripts of these documents in their entirety, but I don't think Brett mentions salvia at all in the suicide note.  He makes reference only to "a better place".  Sure many of us here might agree salvia space is that "better place" so often referenced in literature, song and culture, but really, he could have meant anything.  He could have been talking about the Christian "Heaven" so many have committed suicide in a misguided attempt to obtain.

"Mom and Dad, don't worry about me," Brett wrote in his suicide note. "Please don't cry. I love you guys so much. I always have. Take a vacation. You deserve it. Please do not be sad. I want you to carry on your lives. Remember me and be happy when you think of me, not sad. Tell yourselves I'm in a better place, because I am. I'm sorry I didn't get to say goodbye before this, but I love you."

Also, who was this note written to?  Brett's birth mother, who is making this whole stink about salvia, implies the note was to her.  But she was on vacation in Europe when this all happened.  Is that vacation part sarcasm? Or the note was written to someone else - perhaps a step-mother?  

Say has divorce ever been linked to suicide?  He's something interesting, China has seen an alarming increase in unhappy people.  There, suicide is "the leading cause of death in persons aged between 15 and 34 years." Access Asia.  Hey, there's not much salvia in China, yet social and economic pressures to succeed are higher than ever (much like Brett was facing).  

Actually, I  think the people who are reaching for answers to Brett's suicide by blaming some obscure and harmless plant are in denial when the answers are staring them in the mirror.

As for the vampire incident - it sounds totally fabricated, but still - the guys were toting around guns and would have been after your vampire ass had they smoked salvia or not.  You got to quit hanging out in front of the head shop, watching and waiting for people to smoke salvia anyway.   Do you support gun control?  That would be a better place to start if you want to stop the vampire hunters anyhow.

[mykayl]

Actually, I was walking into an Office Depot store, and he had followed me into the parking lot when I got out of the car. The head shop in my town is nowhere near Office Depot.

I didn't say I was a vampire; in his fucked up perception, he did. Nothing you think or say could possibly excuse his actions, so you need to calm the fuck down. He had just watched a vampire flick in a theater 3 blocks away from the Depot, and he happened to be smoking an SD joint in the theater parking lot with his girfriend when he looked up and saw me pulling out of a parking lot across the street. Just because he saw me wearing sunglasses and got all paranoid doesn't give him, you, or anyone else the right to stalk me for three blocks on foot and threaten my life with a gun.

On the influence of SD, gun-totin' wigger-boy's movie-fantasy got the best of him--not some prior belief in vampires or mystical insight, neither of which he had. He was fucked up on an hallucinogenic chemical, and that was his only excuse. The fact that he couldn't come to his senses in that 3 block walk tells me that salvinorin A was doing something to inhibit his judgement. I've read accounts of people believing that Sesame Street characters were alive and living on their ceiling after smoking SD, so it's not a stretch to say that SD had a similar effect on him.

I don't hang around head shops; I purchased my herb online. In fact, the only time I go into town is to do business or get food. I don't know about you, hippie, but some people do have lives.

Here's what I know about that head shop that sold him his herb: by selling SD as a drug when it hasn't been recognized or approved as one by the FDA, they were violating state and federal law. They were also violating a state law that prohibits the sale of any non-scheduled item being passed off as having the same or similar affects as a controlled substance, and another state law that says it's a crime to sell any inebriant or substance being passed off as an inebriant to minors, regardless of whether or not it's a controlled substance. I don't feel comfortable with that, under ANY circumstances. You don't either from what I gather from your posts, but here you are, arguing with me.

In concerns to the case with Brett, neither one of us has all the facts, so it's a moot point. I stick with Occam's Razor logic, because in matters of business and public safety, it works. Unlike you, I don't care whether or not Big Brother is trying to take away my personal stash of wacky weed; I just care whether or not someone under the influence of hallucinogens is putting a gun in my face. I don't even care that this kid committed suicide, and I'm guessing that the Delaware state legislators don't really care much either. They have a whole shitload of legal and business issues to worry about that you haven't even taken the time to consider; Brett's suicide was just a political excuse to shelter the general public from the consequences of a few kids' irresponsible use.

From what I've seen, a lot of new users are smoking it in public, and I'm pretty sure that was a bigger issue for them than one person sniffing barbecue fumes in the privacy of his garage after smoking SD in his dark closet. It may not be fair, but until it's challenged in court by opposing legislators and business interests, it's the only barrier Delaware citizens have against reckless SD-smokers doing to them what one tried to do to me. If they criminalized it in my state, I'd be happy with it for the time being, because I don't really need to use SD to take me to some special place in my head, and neither does anybody else. People all over the world have been doing it for thousands of years without the aid of entheogens, and that isn't going to change if one more of them is outlawed. If people are too lazy to seek out a method that doesn't involve drugs, or are too cowardly to go shroom picking, that's none of my concern. Shamanism and Sorcery are hard Paths; no one ever said it was going to be easy.

I don't see a viable business competition paradigm in the Delaware scenario, so I'm guessing there was a history of abuse and law enforement involvement that led up to legislators hyping a suicide case to justify criminalization. I don't know that for sure, but knowing what I do about political science and economics, I'm thinking it's a safe bet. If this were really a moral issue, don't you think the government would have federally scheduled SD a long time ago? The people in the DEA still can't make up their mind how to handle this, and it's been available in our country for nearly half a century.

The law is going to do what it wants, people are still going to do what they want, so I don't see why you care whether or not SD can be proven to be a destructive influence in some people's lives. For the most part I don't care, but I'm still not going to hand a stranger a gun that he doesn't know is loaded, and invite him to point it at me or himself. At the end of the day, people still need to know the potential consequences of their actions, and be informed of any legitemate concerns; people facilitating those actions with products have a social obligation to make sure of that, and to exercise some caution if they think a customer's use of the product is going to pose a potential threat to the safety and well-being of others. All the optimism and idealism in the world isn't going to make SD or anything remotely like it safe for everyone under all circumstances.

I don't believe in total prohibition, but I believe in regulating anything that could make people act erratic in a diminished mental state, whether it's alcohol, or some other sort of mind-altering chemical. I haven't seen any proof that salvia divinorum DOESN'T diminish one's mental faculties, and plenty of proof that it DOES, so I'm sticking to my opinion on this matter. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm going to stick to the facts. I may not have all the facts about the Brett case, but I have enough facts from a variety of sources and experiences to know better than to think your arguments are even remotely valid.

I've made some agreeable, fact-based concessions, but you're still arguing, which leaves me to believe that you don't know exactly what it is you're arguing about, mr. rebel without a cause. I'm a businessman, and this is beginning to waste my valuable time, so I'm going to leave you to your inner struggle about what's "fair", while I stick to worrying about what's pragmatic and practical in real world scenarios. I've said all I have to say on this matter, and I won't be reading any more of your posts. Once again and for the last time, I leave by saying, "you ARE too stoned too type"....

[TooStonedToType]

No one seems to be arguing except for you.  Maybe you should re-read this thread.  About all I did was point out the error in your posting regarding salvia divinorum being mentioned in Brett's suicide note. It is not!  I guess I did imply if your facts such as these are in error, maybe your conclusions are as well - but that's not really arguring - its having a reasonalbe discussion.  Something you don't seem capable of without attempting personal insults.  

Except for maybe that part I wrote about your vampire story to be a total fabraction. Which the more you post the more it seems I was correct.  So what did the police say when you told them of your encounter with the vampire hunters?  Had they heard of salvia d. or did you "educate" them as to the dangers?

Oh well.  Thanks for not posting here anymore.

[lollipop guild]

quote myk:Brett's suicide was just a political excuse to shelter the general public from the consequences of a few kids' irresponsible use.

We at the guild wish to respectfully disagree. The publicity over Brett's death has been a devious attempt to link the ingestion of salvia with suicidal tendencies; a political excuse to further erode the rights of otherwise law abiding citizens.

From reading recent posts, we at the guild have come to the conclusion that the poster in question is doing his best to malign salvia d by conjuring up outright lies and false claims of responsibility for imaginary actions. A(nother) cage rattling expedition, if you will....

guild rep #9

[TooStonedToType]

Well, I don't know - the more I think about it, the more I think I was too hasty and judgmental.  Maybe he is a vampire and salvia has properties we should be instigating.  He was in a vehicle and they were able to track him down on foot. It took some people years to see michael is a vampire and some kids coming out of a movie noticed him right away.  Still don't think its right to be shooting at such drains on society and such.

[mykayl]

Well, moderator, you made me laugh, so I have to do justice to this one last time:

Actually, he was arrested and charged for public intoxication, carrying an unliscensed firearm, brandishing it in public, and making death threats. They found the stash of SD on both of them, and he admitted to having been under the influence of SD when he pulled his gun on me; so did his girlfriend, who I thank for jerking him aside and laughing to distract him.

Cops around here know about SD, and this wasn't the first time they've had to deal with public disturbances related to public SD-smoking. It happened back when Blade: Trinity was in theaters, and they'd known about it then for quite some time. Despite my puny size, this kid thought I was Triple-H's character in the movie. I don't look anything like Triple-H; I don't even have the same hair color. I'm insulted that he didn't think I was Deacon Frost; he's my favorite character in the Blade series *LOL*

One of the cops told me that he'd arrested a kid once for breaking in a car window with a skateboard while on it, because he thought he was a knight slaying a dragon. Laughable as it may seem, that's a serious problem, especially since he wasn't known for that sort of behavior prior to his SD habit.

As for Brett's suicide note, you're still bickering over finer points of a note that you don't have in your hand. I just know what they claimed it said on the news, and despite any speculations I might have about his inner process, I don't claim to know any more or less than that. Drugs negatively influence the decision-making process in imbalanced individuals, and that much has been scientifically proven, regardless of whether SD was the specific influence in Brett's case.

Because of what he wrote in his journal entry, and the words he used to frame his experience, I still think it was; apparently, whatever experts were called in to determine the facts of this case think so too. You may not be okay with that, but I am.

That's all the government and law enforcement agencies care about, and it's all I care about, after what I've experienced. Since there are so many imbalanced people out there attracted to drug use out of a desire to self-medicate, it makes unregulated drug use a potential threat to public safety. You may not agree with that sort of criteria being used for legislative decisions, but having been on the wrong end of a gun, I do. Prohibition in Delaware may not agree with my politics, but at least something is being done there that will make other people sit up and ask the hard questions. Being the evil monster that I am, I can sleep with that.

I didn't say I was a vampire; those are your words. Whether or not I actually am one is still completely irrelevant to the facts of this discussion. We agree on some things and disagree on others, and I'm okay with that. We've hashed this out past the point of antiquity, so you should let it go.

[lollipop guild]

quote myk: One of the cops told me that he'd arrested a kid once for breaking in a car window with a skateboard while on it, because he thought he was a knight slaying a dragon. Laughable as it may seem, that's a serious problem, especially since he wasn't known for that sort of behavior prior to his SD habit.

That statement above is a bunch of hooey, in our opinion. You are making up scenarios to fit your argument. Your lies are what's laughable. That or the kids reasoning for criminal activity. Either or both are lies.

As for you being a sorcerer who kills "those unnaturally clinging to life," and the example you used to verify and prove your ability to murder from long distances... more lies, leaving you as the only one able to verify the incident. Not real conclusive for an objective reality check. An act you said you performed an that we must rely on your truth telling to believe? Ah-hahahahahahahahaha!  

guild chairman

[Azure Void]

I remember reading the article and thinking it had some good and bad, and the trying to link the kid's suicide to salvia was the bad, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm always skeptical of stories in which people do things, like work out or go swimming, while tripping balls on salvia. Once, when I first started using salvia, I smoked a couple or three bowls of raw leaf, and stumbled to my bed in the next room. I barely made it. I could barely walk at all. As soon as I lay down my ceiling became vaulted.

I've been frozen in place sitting on the edge of my bed after smoking salvia, unable to move, or remember that I ever was able to move.

In my experience, if the salvia isn't strong enough to cause me to lose contact with external reality as well as the ability to function physically, it isn't strong enough for me to really trip on. Thus, if I'm out there smashing skateboards through windows (as opposed to frozen on a park bench or lying on the ground), I'm not really tripping hard at all.

Well, that's just my experience with salvia and makes me highly skeptical of people's reports of movement, and also reports of orgasms while tripping in other dimensions. I wouldn't even remember I had a penis if I'd gone in far enough. I couldn't string the words together to form the thought.

People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, and salvia, if anything, might make me afraid to do so. Rather, it might remind me that I'd better take advantage of this life to prepare for death, when one might find one's self in real serious shit with no cozy body or delusions to hide away in.

Oddly, his salvia report is not so different from what others find beneficial. After following some rather depressing politics, I found one salvia trip that showed me it was all about as meaningful as a board game (from anther exalted perspective) made me feel a whole lot better.

My GUESS is the kid wasn't that happy to begin with, that salvia didn't help him that much, and he probably had suicidal tendencies. That's my GUESS. His interpretation of what he learned from salvia apparently didn't brighten his outlook, and it may have contributed to him being depressed. OK.

One thing I wouldn't do is take salvia when I was depressed! Hey, let's hyperpower my depression and see just how miserable I can be in another dimension?!?! Don't trip when you aren't content with yourself.

I think the salvia may have contributed slightly to the kid's unhappiness, but was not responsible for it in the main. Meditating or reading Nietzche or Dostoevsky might have also depressed him. I actually knew a girl who injected herself with Windex after reading "Crime and Punishment".  No joke.

Sure, she was a bit wacked emotionally. But, they still keep the dangerous Dostoevsky in the libraries of all places.

Just my humble opinions which Salvia would show me are complete mental constructions having little to do with reality more than just manipulation of the symbols of language.

[Azure Void]

Or was it Anna Karenina? Um, the book the girl injected herself with Windex after reading, or in the midst of reading. She was someone I knew well, and she had a blue splotch on her arm. When I asked how she got it she confessed to the Windex thing. She wasn't the type to make it up.

I guess people need grounding before reading Dostoevsky, seeing certain movies, listening to Black Sabbath or Pink Floyd (weren't those the groups that "caused" kids to kill themselves?), or doing any "entheogen". It's a tough world out there. At least I know I'm a bit frail sometimes and thus take precautions.

I said way too much.

[TooStonedToType]

Raskolnikov says "Nyet" Let them eat all the literature they can disolve. I don't know - It seem some are hardly ready to comprehend Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, The Matrix, The Dead - but who am I to judge if they are ready?  If they ask, I usually say ok.

"Rather, it might remind me that I'd better take advantage of this life to prepare for death, when one might find one's self in real serious shit with no cozy body or delusions to hide away in. "

Reminds me of some discussions we've had regarding the Tibetain Book of the Dead and all that.

Yea, you said WAY too much!  Lets try to keep these discussions as esoteric as possible please.

-tstt

PS. Welcome to the Salvia Plane.