Salvia interfering with brain chemistry or divine experiance

[Hyakitaki]

I think it's all chemicals, and messed up neurons, maybe some electrical impulse inhibition, perhaps synapse time reduction I guess I don't think it's divine what do you guys think?

[visionarybear]

I see two seperate parts to this,

1. the production of the visions/ visual/aural perceptions of non normal things as produced by the past experiences wich softwire the brain with the trigger of the actives to produce the sensory experience...indeed acts via a measurable neural model...a reductionist point of view...

2. the interpretation of the visions is not chemical per se but how the subject chooses/is inclined to interperet or assign value to i.e that swirl x says is a sun, y may say is a aliencraft, thus the experience and value is dictated by the persons desire. this is where the religeous,spiritual aspects play into it, no-one can proove for or against any presence of a 'guiding'spirit or force..

this is what i believe, common to all experience..
experiences are always best left to the interpretation of the observer...
and value can come from the most simple expereinces by allowing us to tap into our greater self, i.e lying in a field, fully sober, watching a blade of grass in the wind could have divine implications or great mental insite or relaxation for the observer...

jus my 2cents

[Amomynous]

I think it's all chemicals, and messed up neurons, maybe some electrical impulse inhibition, perhaps synapse time reduction I guess I don't think it's divine what do you guys think?

There are physiological correlates of all experience, spiritual and otherwise. The research that backs this up could probably fill a small library.

There is no philosophical or logical reason to separate entheogen-induced experience from other types of experience. Every mode of consciousness has its own states and foundations, and the sometimes offered opinion that entheogens engender "false" experience while other methods -- such as chanting, drumming, meditation, or spontaneous spiritual experience -- offer "real" experience has no basis in fact. Everything that induces experience has correlates in the physiology of the brain.

Salvia, like other strong psychoactive plants, changes the state of our brains. But so does meditation... for that matter, so does closing one's eyes and relaxing. Does that somehow devalue the experience? No: value is something we ascribe to the experience from our higher-order functioning. Really, the spirituality of an experience comes from what you make of it.

For a good summary of the physical correlates to spiritual experience, I recommend James Austin's book Zen and the Brain. At about 900 pages (and those are densely packed) it's a bit slow going; I'm only about a third the way through it. But it's fascinating stuff, and if your interest goes beyond simple postings to web board, I highly recommend it.

http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/de ... 2&tid=6211

[Jupe]

thanx Amomynous for your clarity.  I've read some reviews of Austin's book before...on my read "someday" booklist....and you're only 1/3  uh oh doesn't look good for me... :roll:

[Hyakitaki]

GREAT RESPONSES JEEZ!!!  Incredibly insightfull and full of new concepts to me. I must say i've gained respect for everyone at this board because of this post (which is pretty good considering I already respected everyone here a ton).

[redman]

H

You can reduce the experience to just chemicals if you like. However, what are the chemicals actually doing? Do they alter your perception of consentual reality or facilitate the perception of other dimensions. For now, this is for you to decide.

A couple of good books to check out are Graham Hancock's Supernatural and Dr. Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule. Both of these works purport that the brain is a reciever mechanism and that by altering it's chemistry, one retunes the reciever to tune in different dimensions.

Happy Trails,

Red

[Hyakitaki]

I love book recomendations.  Right now i'm living off of Ramen noodles and microwave burritos though (THE TINA'S PIZZA ONES ARE THE BEST!!!).  I am expecting a credit card anyday now though, so both of those books will definatly be charged to it immediatly.  I really like the idea of those books and am now ancy to get them...I guess what i'm really trying to say is, thanks for making me unable to resist myself and go into debt hahahahahahahah.

P.S. I checked the library first of course no luck...

[TooStonedToType]

DMT:  The Spirit Molecule is available at http://rapidshare.de/files/7720551/DMT_ ... n.pdf.html and maybe other places.

[JRL]

and try //http://www.abebooks.com. Thet search a huge number of booksellers for the best price on used copies.

[Hyakitaki]

Thanks a ton for the links, I downloaded "The Spirit Molecule" in seconds.  I don't think i'm going to read the whole thing on the computer though.  I still am going to have to order it for 2 reasons.

1.  Reading of a computer moniter for extended periods of time kills me.
2.  This seems like a really incedible book, and I would like to put it on a bookshelf.  I am just strange like that I guess I like to keep the books I read, sometimes people see them and ask to borrow them.  Of course I then say "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM A LIBRARY GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HOUSE YOU BASTARD!!!".  Just kidding I really like to loan my books to people and see their views on the details contained therein.

Thanks again for everything!

[Jupe]

you might also like Jeremy Narby's "the Cosmic Serpent" among about 50 gazillion other cool books that people havn't mentioned yet.....there's a book list around here somewhere.....

[Azure Void]

I say it IS a spiritual experience, even though the cause is inarguably a forced change in brain chemistry.

But what happens when one's brain chemistry is so changed? Well, many, myself included, typically experience the complete disintigration of the ego. The erasure of the ego is the foundation of most reported spiritual experiences throughout history. Whether it comes about through spontaneous changes in consciousness, or forced one's, the ego is still demolished.

One thing salvia does very well is destroy/dismantle/disolve/erode the abstract, language-based, mental superstructure we impose on reality and take for reality itself.

Often, after using salvia, people experience being really "outside" of everything they've known for the first time. This manifests itself in many different ways, but, it is being conscious without one's consciousness being circumscribed by our mental projections on reality.

Another thought. The experiences are definitely REAL, just as one REALLY has dreams, but, like the dream, the salvia trip isn't REAL in the sense that the experience can't be observed or documented in any way in consensual reality.

However, people often say, and it's my experience, that the salvia episode can impact one as far MORE real than everyday life. My guess is that it's because the consciousness is immersed in a direct reality rather than the rhetorical superstructure our minds normally exist in.

There's much more to it than that, but, how the experience is produced is not as important as what the experience is, and what salvia does is extremely instructive in terms of immediate understanding (verses intellectually comprehended ideas) of the nature of reality, of consciousness, and of the ultimate facade of typical mental consciousness.

[Azure Void]

One more idea. Witnessing the dismantling of the mind, and the dismantling of how the mind holds onto reality, gives insight into death. I've often thought that when people die they might have something LIKE a salvia experiencek, partly because so many of my salvia experiences were like death.

Here's an observation or two. From the standpoint of the dying person, the world doesn't continue to exist without them, but, rather, they continue to exist without the world. Their ability to hold onto the world breaks down, probably as the brain ceases to function. There's a feeling of really being left out, and one comes to appreciate why even the most miserable people often cling desperately to life when there is a sudden risk to their life. We don't wanna' be left out. What comes after that seems to be in many stages or levels.

Those are just some impressions I've got from my salvia experience. Enough jabbering away.

[Joseph003]

well, i think of it this way, if somebody became super enlightened or whatever, and could go to the other place without the aid of drugs, you'd probably see a change in brain chemistry rite? and of course if you take mind alter drugs, your brain chemistry changes, and you go to the other place. theoreticly, whats the differnce really eh? well, if the other place really actually exists this doesnt prove it, but i think it shows that if it does exist, getting there through drug use it totally possible.


if that wasnt very clear, let me put it this way, when something makes you happy, say a friend gives you a meaningful gift, your brain chemistry changes. it would seem that being happy causes changes in your brain. but you can take drugs which alter your brain chemistry, and then you feel good. either way you feel happy.  the artificial method may have undesirable side effects and such and such, but thats due to our inadaquate knowledge of the brain and mind. the happiness caused my drugs is no less happiness than than your normally attained happiness.