Shapeshifting

[Avery L. Breath]

Yep, I think I smell sulfur.

Soneone must be off their medication again.

[senorsalvia]

Considering the path this thread has taken, I wonder why it is not moved to The Mountain........  Hmmmm, I'm smelling the drifting aromas of burning sage and copal :wink: --------  sal

[Chris W]

lol     Avery  
      another thing.....
    Just because the shamans deserted Salvia  because they were looking for some animal doesnt mean it isn't usefull to people with other skills. And just because they went to other dimensions with the use of plants doesnt mean they know everything about it.

[TroutMask]

I want to see Cayce go up against L Ron Hubbard. That would be a good fight.

-TM

[Chris W]

send me your money

[mykayl]

You made the mistake of admitting that everything is connected, so now I'm going to tear down everything you've said. In the most primitive beliefs, people believed in duality of the soul--that we are born into the world with an "animal twin". We all have two spirits {one good, one bad}, and are born exchanging spirits with an animal that keeps us accountable to the balance of nature. Take for instance, me: I was born with my "bad" human spirit, and the "good" spirit of a bat, which keeps my "bad" spirit in check. Likewise, a bat was born whose good spirit dwells in me, and my good "human" spirit dwells in the bat, to keep its bad spirit in check.

That's the oldest recognizable totemic belief, found in Asia and all it's outlying Islands, dating back longer than 60,000 years, before the Australoids migrated to Australia. They brought that belief to Australia with them, and paid heavy consequences for letting go of the old ways; a large part of the Australian ecosystem collapsed because some of the tribes started eating fox bats, resulting in vast desertification. Many fruit bearing trees in Australia are dependent on fruit bats for their propagation. They even have myths to commemorate this cycle in their history. Many of the tribes couldn't stop eating the bats, and farmers were killing them to prevent crop damage, so the modern Australian government stepped in to regulate what are now becoming endangered species there.

Every culture in the world has gone through this cycle of ecological destruction, famine, etc. by adopting mythological/symbolic beliefs and sterile, isolative notions of spirituality that allowed them to justify reckless abandon. Look where it's taken us--to the verge of global annihliation, as we have polluted and overpopulated the planet. That's not balance or truth; that's isolative denial and disease. What you speak of is part of the problem, not the solution. Animism is an instinctive observation of the nature of reality; not some conjecture made up by religionists to keep people isolated in fantasy.

As for deriding shamans for giving up drugs to seek a higher reality, curanderos are not true shamans, which is why they hang onto their drug culture. Drugs only take you within to find the animal spirit that is your soul {i.e., the descent into the Underworld}, which is the first step in shamanism and sorcery; if they don't do that, they're worthless, and have no use in either Path. If the drug makes you leave your body without a soul {like smoked SD does} it's worthless, because it takes you away from yourself.

True shamanism and sorcery are devoted to healing vital humanity{shamanism} and destroying worthless, isolated, destructive people who are wasting space and resources {sorcery}. To put it in Judeo-Christian terms, we're the angels and demons who oversee the process of human life and death. If you don't submit to healing, that only leaves one of two choices in this day and age: be destroyed, or become a pawn in global healing and destruction. It's not a matter of belief; it's a matter of nature cleaning up the mess. Why do you think the last six years have seen massive death tolls worldwide? Do you think that pattern is going to end any time soon? Do you honestly believe that it's all just the tyranny of men and random natural occurences? All around the world, members of both Paths entered into a pact at the beginning of the new millenium to concentrate their efforts globally. No more piecemeal healings or curses; we hit everyone equally, as a collective entity. Our goals are to bring the human population down to a manageable, non-threatening level, and reestablish the values of totemic tribalism. Not because it's a religious belief, but because it's what Mankind must do to survive nature's backlash.

You're a puppet whether you like it or not, because your beliefs don't put you above the herd; if you haven't been plagued by sorcerers and their ilk, it's only because you serve a purpose to one side or the other by remaining healthy. Everything you say or do contributes to some domino effect leading to order or chaos, and either way, you're just as easy to manipulate as all the other rubes. Some people will read this thread, realize that I have the upper hand, investigate the facts for themselves, and make responsible choices that will immunize themselves from manipulation by higher forces. Other people will take your side in denial, and themselves remain pawns. Either way, we still win, because you're still a pawn in our game, inciting others to action. If you weren't a pawn, you wouldn't have bothered to start this argument with me in the first place.

And to make a correction, you tried to tell me that I was wrong first; I never would have brought any of this up if you hadn't opened your big mouth. It still comes down to objective experience; I'm only recognized as a sorcerer by others in my tradition because of objective manifestations of my power--not because I believe in things that can't be confirmed by the observations of others. As for when I started my training, that was at age 13, when I became a man in my tribe. If your mother really taught you stuff at age 7, it only goes to show how irresponsible and fictitious modern society has become. All this stuff is tied in with rites of adult passage; no 7 year old has the physical maturity or cognitive ability to be a man or woman, or do manly or womanly things.

Just because some book tells you you can get out of your body with some hokey visualization doesn't make it so. Whether you got it from a book or your mother got it from a book is irrelevant; it's still just a bunch of bullshit that people write to make money, and to keep people preoccupied with their fantasies. Sorry, but you've been flim-flammed, and you're still talking out your ass without first researching the origins of modern spirituality. Do that before making any more objections, and you'll find out that life doesn't work the way you think it does. That, or you can stick to your guns and remain a pawn; either way, I win, because no one really cares who's right or wrong in an argument that YOU started.

[Chris W]

Well then,    they have since found out the Earth is round. Have you ever studied Quantum Physics???  And yes everything is conected and empty at the same time. Even lead is mostly empty space.   I dont  follow any religion.  I have had thousands of oobs without trying to take peoples money or call myself a sorcerer. To me the word sorcerer is like Merlin or something out of one of those fantasy books. I have never tried to hurt another spirit wether they be in a hospital bed or not.  Maybe your purpose being there was to help heal her and you took it as having to snuff her out.     I go to dimensions your sorcerers are scared of because I know my powers on the other side and I also know no matter how hard I try to stay over there I always come back to my body.
    Well I am sorry then if you think I was just trying to argue with you but you pushed your religion basically on him like your way was the only way. And that is valid why??? because some jungle people in the woods taking entheogens and basing the laws of reality on what they saw in thier visions?    
      I dont need an animal spirit because I am eternal and formless. I have been here since the begining of time and I will always be till the end of time. Time itself is also eternal and an illusion. The realitys and dimensions stretch out both ways to infinity as does space.  This reality is formed by concious thought just as dreams are. I also lead other lifes in other dimensions similar to this one.  My body in this reality is made up of billions upon billions of other spirits that form the cells of my body. They communicate instantly between another to perform various bodily funtions. They also communicate with everything around them and everything that exists now and has ever existed or ever will exist.

[Chris W]

and of course you have a good self and a bad self. You see without bad then good could not possibly exist.   or is it the othe way around??

[mykayl]

Whatever, Chris; get over yourself. You still have to eat, breath and shit, and at the end of the day, you still have to answer to a higher balance and order, just like me and everyone else on this ball of dirt. No one here cares about your little dick war. You've tried to twist everything I've said, and you've done nothing but make an ass out of yourself, along with insulting a variety of ethnic groups.

I've read Seth books--it was a bunch of charlatan New Age hype gleaned from books by the channeler prior to the appearance of "Seth", or to the publishing advances she got to write such garbage. I've read the Holographic Universe--one man's simplistic model, but way too ubiquitous, vague and isolated from intuitive knowing to be of any use in actual practice. I still can't walk on water after reading it, and neither can you. I don't know anyone who's read it that can do anything particularly magical or noteworthy, other than philosophize in coffee shops about how divine and enlightened they are, despite their lack of financial and social success.

If you don't think a shaman can heal multitudes of people in a variety of unseen ways by projecting healing directives into the entire human collective, then you know nothing about magic, spirituality, or any of this quantum physics stuff you rant about. It's all just a big pretense you use to argue with people about things you apparently know nothing about.

As for your comment about the word "sorcerer", it comes from the Latin root sors, meaning "fate". Fate is the way in which one will ultimately die, unlike destiny, which is the potential manner in which a person might live. A sorcerer is a fate-weaver; i.e., one who makes others die by means of magic or poisons, as an occupational practice. Modern science still uses Latin as a technical language, so I guess words like "sorcerer" aren't as outdated and antiquated as you like to believe. It works in a circumstance where other words fall short of defining what I am and do, and it has a depth of traditional meaning that gives it weight; that's all that counts.

I don't believe you can astrally project, I don't believe that you're as old as you say you are, and I'm not even going to bother to point out how many times you've contradicted yourself while trying to one-up me. You can go on believing that you're some omnipotent, ubiquitous being that knows no limitations of space or time, but as for me and everyone else that has a brain, we'll continue to acknowledge the objective reality of life, despite any differences we might have in defining and manipulating its complexities. If people believe differently than me, fine; they'll continue to do what they do, and I'll continue to do what I do. In the end, it doesn't make a shit's bit of difference.

Others can read the thread and decide for themselves who started what, but I have nothing more to say to you. Morvesruk bas pojyras vam dyna, posle yeg delas vam ko dopuskas to tugedej.

[Chris W]

I dont care if you dont believe me or not.  I could have just made it all up to get you going .   Just like I dont believe you are a true sorcerer or Shaman.   WTF would a Shaman need a computer for when they can just go pet their animal.  Why would a sorcerer be arguing with a petty human like me???  
        Maybe   a sorcerer  that reads  Alister Crowley books  or something

[Satori]

Considering the path this thread has taken, I wonder why it is not moved to The Mountain........  Hmmmm, I'm smelling the drifting aromas of burning sage and copal :wink: --------  sal

If this comes to the Mountain, I will lock it, and end this cock-fight :lol:

[Chris W]

I have a way to end it and for the sorcerer to prove himself........
   
      If you are so skilled  and your way is so much better and right and I am wrong then why dont you mix yourself up a potion and kill me tonight with your sorcery.   If  I don't come and type again in this thread tomorrow then everyone will see just how skilled and trained you really are.   If I do come back then everyone will see you are a phony and full of shit.

[mykayl]

That's the most retarded challenge I've ever heard. Life isn't that easy for you, me, or anyone else, Chris. There are many other players in this game; I don't always have control over who dies based on how angry I'm feeling on any particular day towards a single person. Things don't even work that way for you, in your omnipotent ubiquitousness. Even a chess game could tell you that much. You may not die today, but you definitely will pay in the long run; whether or not I cast a curse on you has nothing to do with it, because you're already in a self-destructive tailspin, and that's what has me laughing the most. The mysterious words in an obscure language could be totally meaningless, but you're still going to suffer in your isolated little shell of a self. You brought the problems in your life on yourself, Chris; you don't need any help from me to crawl into your grave.

Despite all that, you can still change, become productive and live a long life. A curse is only a test that the target either fails by remaining worthless, or passes by making a life-affirming change that immunizes them from the "poison". I can't predict who will die, or when; I can only testify to what has happened as a result of my work, as an example of what IS possible. Either way I still win, because whether you live or die, I had a hand in manipulating your objective life circumstances to my benefit. Regardless of all your posturing, the reality is that I drew you here by setting the stage, and you provided others with amusement as you tortured yourself with your own inner struggle to comprehend the subject matter. No matter how moralistic anyone might be, everyone loves to watch a self-important asshole fall apart in public.

You've even admitted that you're a troll, which makes it all the more amusing, because it further supports the fact that you stupidly played into our game. Most people reading and contributing to this group are themselves magicians of some sort, who cast spells to gain information and knowledge concerning their choices in life {at the very least, they call out for it as a petition to higher forces while on SD}. That ultimately makes you the pawn in our information process, because by providing a hostile antithesis, you allowed me to share information that others can hash out in their own thoughts. If they come to a different reality model than I have, great! Regardless of the outcome, my work is done.

Knowing that, why are you still here? Do you enjoy being a mindless little meat-puppet for twisted fucks like myself? There isn't a single thing you can say or do to shake me or make me doubt myself, so if you have so much power over your own life, why bother? After all, that is what this comes down to, Chris; whether or not you have power over your OWN life....

There's plenty of people in the entheogen-taking community that feel similarly to how I do {i.e., have totemic beliefs, are animists, practice shamanism or sorcery, or are apprentices}, and like me, they're laughing at you for trying to argue something that really isn't that important, and laughing at how stupid your words come across. You still haven't said one thing that shows you have any understanding whatsoever about what I'm talking about, and half of what you've said actually supports my reality model. I read the books you're talking about years ago, and many more since then that go way beyond them. These days, that's the first level of training: learning what other people think, learning the science that can explain what we do, and learning to distinguish between the lies of mainstream religion/spirituality/philosophy and the cold, hard reality of sapient evolution.

I really wish things were as simple as you think they are, but regardless of any abstract concepts of spirituality we might possess, or how many vague, all-encompassing notions of physics we might understand, we're still individual flesh bags fighting to maintain our individuality in the face of society trying to tell us that there are no lines between the individual and the state collective. I started at 13, when I was mature enough to begin distinguishing fact from fiction; if what you say is really true about beginning at 7, then it fully explains why you've held on to unrealistic paradigms for so long. If you can't prove the validity of your knowledge and experiences to yourself by observing objective manfestations, what good are you to yourself? Your beliefs are nothing more than a straight-jacket, assuming that anything you've written about yourself here is true.

I don't believe that anything I know is valid until I can see objective results; THAT'S why I didn't believe that I could literally leave my body until my early 20's, despite myriad experiences that might have been OBE's before then. If other people can't see it or at least intuit it to be true, it isn't real. Without the contrast of others, we have no standard by which to measure the validity of our knowledge; no way to distinguish fantasy from reality.

Whether or not I attacked your beliefs in defense of my own is irrelevant; anyone who reads your first post can see that you're a fake fuck trying to start an argument, so you got what you deserved. I believe your sentiments went something like, "I can fly through buildings at high speeds! Look at me, puny mortal, I'm Superman!" I'm sure everyone else here picked up on that sentiment.

If you want to continue to look like a dumbass, feel free; I'm not going to waste any more of my valuable time playing your silly game with you. Having the last word isn't going to impress anyone here that you know anything about life, so get over yourself. No one is going to think you're dead and that I'm right if you don't respond, because no one here really cares. Hell, I don't even care. You should just leave it at that, and get on with your pathetic life.

[Chris W]

lol  you sure love that self destructive talk huh??   Sorry bro but I dont have any problems in my life because I think positively.   The power of positive thought creates your reality. Reality is created from concious thought.    
   from now on just have your animal contact my animal

[TooStonedToType]

Man, you leave a thread for just a minute and look what happens.  I'm locking the thread as its going too far from what it was about.  All opinions are appreciated - feel free to carry on amongst yourselves.