RULES

[winder]

I am puzzled that the rules are being discussed in a open forum rather than a mods forum, but can support, not just tolerate, this being here.

That is, it seems either the mods need to set the rules and them disseminate them or we are soliciting user input to the rules.

Either way.

[space]

I radically support this discussion taking place in an open forum.  How are we going to achieve cognitive liberty with top-down rules?  

My preference would be to keep SPR banner, ad, and vendor-hotlink free.

I grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.

I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants.  Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance:  a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.  

Life is long and hard; a moment of indiscretion is brief and easy; the penalties can be long and hard.  

I love vendors.  I think the Honest Merchant must be one of the Platonic Ideals--and I'm serious as a heart attack about that.  

But I like the freedom of no commerical ties or considerations, and I, personally, would be willing to help support the site financially to keep it that way.  That said, I feel the discussion of vendors should be no holds barred, with the understanding that vendors can reply but not advertise.

I love this place.

[Cassie]

Point of clarification:
If we disallow hotlinks do we still allow vendor sites names to be bandied about? ... coz let's face it there's not much difference between a hotlink and a site name and how do we know when something is considered to be 'advertising' .. heck, vendors could register sock-puppets to sing their own praises.
Then there's the point made above about longtime members who are vendors and spr friends.
What about we allow links to vendors sites in relevant posts but not as bare-faced advertising?   This would ensure some level of participation.

[space]

There is much sense in what you say, Sunshine Woman  

I guess it's also true that competing vendors could register sock puppets to trash each other, and members in general could vent grudges with fictitious or exaggerated complaints or help a friend with lavish praise for an order that was never actually made.  

Life is messy.

Banners/ads imply at least some degree of endorsement, but allowing open discussion and links with a general "buyer beware" outlook would not.  A more open policy about vendor discussions would have saved me some grief back in the days when I was new here and had no experience with online vendors.

I also would like to see the door left open for long-time friends of spiritplants who are or become vendors.  

I guess earlier I was stating a sorta "purist" view that needs amending in the face of...uh...reality, whatever that is.  I look forward to more discussion.

[TooStonedToType]

"Banners/ads imply at least some degree of endorsement"

Yea, and it seems to take away from being impartial.  I've recently seen this at LadySalvia.net.  One of their vendors, PureSalvia sold some fake salvia seeds and has been slow with orders.  I was amazed (and still am) at the comments over there from the moderators about how everyone should cut the guy some slack.  If he weren't paying to be there, I'm sure they would have givin him the boot along time ago.

The thing I really don't like is fake trip reports from vendors hyping their product.  Which I've seen plenty.  In the case of salvia, it is obvious they have never even tried their product and are stating things that are not true and possibly even dangerous.

I don't mind if someone comes in and asked were to buy and plant and someone recommends a known member here, and I trust the members here enough not to be making straw man posts asking for their products.  I don't know how to quite write a rule about such situations, sort of needs descresion by the moderators.

[cenacle]

I grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.

I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants.  Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance:  a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.  

Ha! I think I am one of the elders here! I am pretty sure of that in fact, being behind only a few of us--JRL, Cassie, Jude, Spacey(?), Sal (?) along the path to wherever-next...and while i see the point of continued existence vs. resistance, i do not buy it anymore, if i ever did...i've seen the numbers on prison populations in the US being sickly higher than any other industrial nation in the world, and how much of that is MJ-related...i've read about nazi-like busts of legally-arranged raves like that one recently in utah, i've seen good, helpful entheogens like AMT outlawed as having NO value whatsoever while people booze and cigarette smoke their way to early, rotten deaths...

there is no such thing as holding the line, if there ever was...the hackass nutjobs who think they rule the world are out to suppress everyone not marching in their line...to put down people of color, women, people of alternative sexuality, advocates of any kind of living that does not conform to their corporate apocalyptic views of reality...

and what have entheogens taught me? to just keep walking, head down, move along? fuck that...i don't sit at my job tripping, i don't advocate LSD to random folks at the busstop...but i do find my chances to speak on behalf of freedom and i take them...

if not now, when? that's my view...people like mckenna and leary in the old days, ginsberg, huxley, they put themselves right in the fire on behalf of these sacraments (and their adherents), and what they could mean for life on earth...there are those now like shulgin who take blows on our behalf...so that, what? we can keep along like sheep with a secret or two?...i'm sorry, not me...each makes his/her choice, mine is to find ways to advocate, not just for entheogens, but for related things, for progressive laws on sexual freedom and healthcare...for better housing and education for all...for art and music any chance i get...why i talk at length to anyone who sincerely wishes to know about entheogens...i'm one person, but i do what i can...

that's why i go to burning man every year and some other events and among the books my press gifts out are anthologies of writings on psychedelics...we need to teach our people, the ones who want to know, and allow that anyone on the street could become one of us too, that ultimately there should be no us vs. them...humanity is one big tribe that has forgotten its common root and ongoing bonds of dependence...

this is what i do, and i'd like to see it happen more at least at these forums, i'd like to see posts on what good is going on in the world regarding entheogen law and related issues, and what we need to know about what is happening to our brothers and sisters out there...these things matter...they matter a lot...i'll be damned if i'll let the scumsucking henfuckers out there do what they will without a dirty loud fight...

who's with me? :twisted:

[space]

I grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.

I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants.  Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance:  a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.  

Ha! I think I am one of the elders here! I am pretty sure of that in fact, being behind only a few of us--JRL, Cassie, Jude, Spacey(?), Sal (?) along the path to wherever-next...and while i see the point of continued existence vs. resistance, i do not buy it anymore, if i ever did...

...

this is what i do, and i'd like to see it happen more at least at these forums, i'd like to see posts on what good is going on in the world regarding entheogen law and related issues, and what we need to know about what is happening to our brothers and sisters out there...these things matter...they matter a lot...i'll be damned if i'll let the scumsucking henfuckers out there do what they will without a dirty loud fight...

who's with me? :twisted:

I think we've been with you all along, cen, though I'd like to see more posts like that, too.  

What you do with publishing is good work; we probably all feel that we're doing what we can, but you're right--we could all always do more.

Hope I didn't sound like I was laying claim to some kind of village elder status here--in terms of the blood, sweat and time put into spiritplants, I'm definitely a village junior.  Frankly, I just meant that I hate to sound like a fuddy-duddy.

But I do worry about needless incrimination--we're in a struggle between asymmetrical forces, as the military likes to say these days, and battles have to be chosen.  If I have to attract attention, I'd rather do it with direct action like street protest, fundraising, or activist publishing like yours, than through a careless remark.  I  feel esp. protective about the younger members.  

Does this mean you don't like banners?  

[cenacle]

i think low cost banners would be great, affordable to the vendors, and of of course people whose services we know enough to endorse...further, i think the money should be used entirely to re-invest in the site...such as doing up SPF t-shirts/mugs etc to sell...and the money we raise this way can go to help andy pay for the server space expenses...

and that said, can we promote SPF elsewhere? how would we go about joining 'rings' and the like? nothing we'd have to pay for, but i bet we could get more folks to visit this way...

and *that* said, we'd have to definitely keep abreast of what is advertised and discussed...but i believe that responsible advocacy, such as MAPS, can live, even thrive, in this dangerous world...

[Stonehenge]

Going back to the original topic, I think observing usa laws is enough. If we try to obey laws of every country on earth, it simply won't work. What about grey area stuff? There are RC's that may or may not be illegal. Even if there is no law that says xy and z are illegal, they can nail the vendors under an analogue act or somesuch. I've heard lots of stories about sellers who got not just shut down but put in jail facing serious time for selling what they believed was legal. If the govenment decides you are wrong, you get put away, law or no law.

I don't know the answer to all that but I think grey area chems might be something to not allow while herbs not specificaly banned should be ok even if they could be misused. We all saw Cheech Martin get busted for glass. Are we going to ban glass? I agree with canacle's sentiment that we don't want to hide under the bed in fear the government will come after us for thinking illegal thoughts. But, some things are so obviously risky that we should have some rules.

I haven't heard from andy in a while. His input on these subjects would be very informative. If we are going to have banners, we should have some guidlines. What if someone selling RC's wants a banner? I think long time members such as Bushpig or Frac should be able to discuss their wares from time to time. Someone who just joined this year, maybe not. Should the dividing line be those who were regulars before we came here?

As far as raising money goes, what about paid classified ads? We could have a page for that and charge a small amount like $5 for 3 months of 2 or 3 lines. That would keep the rest of SPF free from clutter.

[cenacle]

how is it we are following US law when this site is on a server in Ireland? did you mean US law for discussion or vendor advertising? i agree we do need to talk to andy, i think he is setting up a new house with his wife and they may even have a new baby...let's see how he weighs in with all this...

[Cassie]

I really think we should just stick to the 'no incrimination' guideline,  which means one is restricted by the laws of the country one lives in.  It just doesn't make sense to use American law as the standard. For example: if we are serious about no incrimination then aussies can't talk about growing salvia but kiwis can and I can use iboga legally, but most of you can't  ... and so on.

[Bushpig]

Indeed, SPF is an international forum.  No incrimination rule should be in relation to ones own country.

[Stonehenge]

The poster could simply say he was in a country that allowed whatever it was he was talking about. Are we going to say "no, you said in another post you were in USA and now you say it's Canada." We could do that but isn't it the DEA and other usa agencies that we are concerned about? Aren't most of our members in USA? What if a LEO cruises our forum and sees a lot of peyote swapping going on and the people all claim they are from England or Canada but the IP which the cop can trace is from USA?

What about a rule on spamming? I suggest a rule against spamming any form of research chemicals unless it's something sold over the counter at wallmart. How about allowing long time members to offer herbs, plants and things for sale or swap but not allowing new names to do it?

[winder]

The poster could simply say he was in a country that allowed whatever it was he was talking about. Are we going to say "no, you said in another post you were in USA and now you say it's Canada." We could do that but isn't it the DEA and other usa agencies that we are concerned about? Aren't most of our members in USA? What if a LEO cruises our forum and sees a lot of peyote swapping going on and the people all claim they are from England or Canada but the IP which the cop can trace is from USA?

What about a rule on spamming? I suggest a rule against spamming any form of research chemicals unless it's something sold over the counter at wallmart. How about allowing long time members to offer herbs, plants and things for sale or swap but not allowing new names to do it?

I find policing what can be traded and cannot be traded to be difficult.
Salvia not in Australia but in the US; peyote not in US but in Australia.
What to do?
I don't have a solution.

As for selling plants, perhaps members need to be both registered for a set minimum period and have a minimum number of posts made so that their character can be judged before they start advertizing here.

[Stonehenge]

Winder, that makes a lot of sense

"As for selling plants, perhaps members need to be both registered for a set minimum period and have a minimum number of posts made so that their character can be judged before they start advertizing here."