Ralph Metzner Guest chat log 5/1/08

[Glandmaster]

OK here is a cleaned up log ready for me to add markup to for the wiki archive. Unfortunately the wiki has been vandalised over the last few days and I have also been unable to reach these forums so apologies for the delay. You will notice a few gaps in Ralphs answers where he was struggling with IRC cutting off text but I will clear this up with him and the wiki will be updated.  I have the 'raw' log too obv if anyone dislikes my editors eye ;p

kemp - Welcome Dr. Metzner!
kemp - glad to have you here today

Ralph - Okay, I'm here

kemp - ok if we get started?

Ralph - Absolutely

kemp - great!
kemp - We are privileged to welcome Dr Ralph Metzner to Spiritplants.
kemp - From his early work on the Harvard Psilocybin Projects with Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, Dr Metzner's career will be familiar to most of us here, if not you can find a short biography on his website http://www.greenearthfound.org/ralph_metzner.html
kemp - His Green Earth Foundation (http://www.greenearthfound.org) seeks to pass on the vital information for a harmonious existence and his most recent project is a series of fascinating workshops, the Alchemical Divination Training Program: www.metzneralchemicaldivination.org
kemp - Todays chat will be logged and arcived at //http://deoxy.org/wiki/Chat_Logs/Ralph_Metzner and the Spiritplant forums.
kemp - Dr Metzner before we open up to our first question perhaps you could bring us up to speed with your latest projects?

Ralph - Okay, alchemical divination refers to methods of accessing sources of knowledge and insight within oneself.I teach this in a series of 5-day workshops, one coming up in late January,
Ralph - in which you learn these methods for oneself, and how to guide others.

liquis - ok we'll move on to Spiros

Spiros - Dr Metzner, could you say some spontaneous thought of yours about psychedelics and art in regard to young artists? I am 24 years old and an artist, and I do feel like what Terence McKenna called 0x1e201can antenna0x1e201d for the larger picture, but most my friends and family and the modern world as a whole tend to discourage me in my endeavors. Being very stubborn I go my own way anyway, but what could you say of how to deal with following one

Ralph - Spiros, I'm not sure of what your question is, but the connection between
Ralph - psychedelics and art is deep. I'm good friends with Alex and Alysson Grey, and

Spiros - my question is, what would you say of following one's heart in a circumstance where it is largely discouraged?

Ralph - their amazing Sacred Mirrors chapel in New York; as well as several other artists; ab
Ralph - absolutely follow your heart. Try to find like-minded souls, or at least one
Ralph - other artist and work collaboratively. What kind of art do yo do? Painting?
Ralph - A wonderful film about music and psychedelics has been made, called ENTHEOGENESIS, it combines
Ralph - psychedelic visuals with a rave-type sound track and amazing footage
Ralph - of dancers from all over the world.

kemp - ok, your question Sappho?

Sappho - we know the film and his quote 'you can't by any stratch cal this a civilisation'. so will 2012 bring any evolution in global gaian mind awareness? will this external circumstances cosmic changes really cause any use for our awareness?
Sappho - sorry Sir Metzner, i am adresing you in 3rd person , i thought moderators will take care editing
Sappho - well, i have some linguistics related questions later, but i'd want to know if you can tell us your view of newr future (hopes?)

Ralph - I don't have an English knighthood, so you don'r need to call me "Sir anything".
Ralph - Actually, Ralph will do just fine.
Ralph - About 2012, like everyone else, I'm intrigued by all the prophecies relating

Sappho - well, I see you as a Sir..since I am brittish-cultivated colonized) partly...(a slav in middle europe)
Sappho - well then, let's see what happens..i think the social systems will improve for sure

Ralph - to 2012, but don't really have any privileged access information. Astronomically,
Ralph - it's an alignment of the winter solstice sunrise with the center of the galaxy.
Ralph - A cosmic event to be sure, but what it means for individuals is anyone's guess.
Ralph - i think the biggest message that I take from it is a reinforcement
Ralph - of the basic guidance to try to be as conscious as possible, follow your
Ralph - inner guidance and wisdom and stay in touch with your loved ones, friends and
Ralph - neighbors.

kemp - great! next question

Goa_Tee - hi Ralph. My question is this : what do you understand by the word 'God'?

Ralph - I like what Noam Chomsky always says when someone asks him whether he believes in God. he says I can;t possibly answer that question because I don't have any idea what your "god' concept is.

Goa_Tee - i suppose, then, i should ask : what is your 'god' concept?

Ralph - For myself, I'm a polytheist, and experience the universe as filled with countless spirit beings, gods and humans and others inhabiting the forms of infinite diversity and variety .
Ralph - each human being is the created form of a divine being.

kemp - ok, next question

tucuna - Hi Ralph - Are you familiar with the amazonian shamanic dietary requirement of abstaining from sexual activities (for three days or more) after drinking ayahuasca - and if so (given that the amazonian culture itself offers no help on that route, as far as I am aware), how do you think that one (well, two) could/should go about, *if at all*, performing some tantric style sexual experimentation during (or perhaps immediately after) an aya
tucuna - huasca session/ceremony?

Ralph - I think abstaining from most foods and sexual activity around the time of a
Ralph - psychedelic or entheogenic ceremony focussed on healing is basically a
Ralph - good practice. And when partaking a sacrament in a particular culture, you
Ralph - follow their guidelines. There are couples who have experimented with combining psychedelics with
Ralph - tantric sexual practices. But I don't imagine that ayahuasca is particularly suited for that, since it has that purging factor -
Ralph - throwing up on your lover would be kind of distracting. Plus, it's not a group pratice.

DMT_Nexus - Dr Metzner, we are interested in your opinion on a study of "Communications between entheogenic users": Basically two subjects are given a mild to medium sized dose of DMT. Each of these subjects is given a word beforehand, that only they know.
DMT_Nexus - Before dosing, the subjects must meditate, concentrate, and focus on the word. Then they are simultaneously given the dosage, and lay down so that their minds are close together.
DMT_Nexus - The entheogenic users then both attempt to communicate that word on to the other during the trip. When they "wake up", see if either word was passed successfully.

kemp - we can take a break sometime, whenever is good for you, Ralph

Ralph - I'm okay, though the switch from one question to another is a bit startling - from God to sex to telepathy. oh well.

kemp - sorry... we have all types here

Ralph - I'm not familiar with the particular DMT experiment you refer to, but sure one can do it.
Ralph - You could also do the same or similar thought transfer experiment without DMT.
Ralph - Most traditional parapsychology experiments fail after a while because they
Ralph - use words or symbols that don't mean anything personally. Telepathy occurs in psychedelic states among people who are bonded with one another and involved and excited about a shared experience.
Ralph - similarly to musicians improvising with one another - often report being
Ralph - completely attuned with what they are each getting.

kemp - ok, Dimethyl I think you are next

dimethyl - Ralph, are you familiar with the 'psychic/artist' Ingo Swann, or any of his works/writings? At the International Remote Viewing Association (IRVA) Conference,
dimethyl - he had a speech about how 'scientists' fail to measure or understand 'psychic' and 'spiritual' processes. In his speech he mentioned how Scientists theorize that ~90-99% of the universe
dimethyl - is made up of dark matter/energy (and the discovery of dark matter interpenetrating dark energy), and how the "scientific method" relies entirely on the measurement of physical matter. So do you think it is possible that the reason scientists fail to properly study these
dimethyl - matters, is largely because they occur in non-matter (and its interactions with matter). Do you have any comments on the future of science, possibly in a time where it integrates with the possibility
dimethyl - to study such non-matter, or this theory/idea in general? (thanks)

Ralph - I'm somewhat familiar with Ingo Swann's work. He was the main originator of the remote viewing protocol developed at the Stanford Research Institute by Russell Targ and hal Puthoff, where remote viewers were trained in psychic espionage.
Ralph - His E-book PENETRATION, is an autobiographical account of his experiences.
Ralph - His findings about the Moon and the Moon shots are startling. About science being too exclusively focussed on the material time-space dimension, i agree completely. I believe this is worldview transition we're going through now, so as to arrive at a worldview that integrates science with the non-material dimensions of life, including Spirit.

kemp - excellent! Justinl, you are up

justinl - the first part of my question is this:
justinl - Dr. Metzner, I was watching a video on Carl Jung recently and from what I can gather, he thought a return to alchemy would be the salvation of western civilization. Could you comment on this? Is this what you are trying to accomplish?
justinl - the second part is, if this is so, why do you think psychedelics are the right path, i know from reading "Journey of Awakening" by Ram Dass, he said he eventually had to get over the hangup of the expectation/memory of his psychedelic experiences before he could progress further.
justinl - (and sorry if that question is too hostile)

Ralph - I don't know about the salvation of western civilization, but i agree with Jung that alchemy represents a hidden tradition of great beauty and meaning in Western civilization. Alchemy or the Hermetic Tradition, is a descendant of shamanism, integrated with Spirituality and science.
Ralph - But it was suppressed by the Church in the Middle Ages, and by material science in the Modern Age. Jung rescued it from this double suppression, pointing out that it was a symbolic language of the psyche, that helps to connect the material with the higher dimensions. Hofmann's discovery of LSD provided an additional link in the broken connection, by finding a materia substance that one ingests, and that can attune consciousness more
Ralph - I've written about this in a short book that is coming out shortly, You'll see it on our website.

justinl - thanks

kemp - Inquirer I think you are next

Inquirer - Hello Dr. Metzner, I'd like to know what you think of the 'War on Drugs' here in the states, specifically its effects on recreational and spiritual psychedelic usage.

Ralph - So the War on Drugs is an unmitigated disaster, not only for users of psychedelics, but for our whole society. It's a racially motivated policy of suppression of dissenting voices in a culture, and the totally ineffective and inapproporiate turning a public health problem (addiction) into a law-enforcement issue. The united States has just about the most

Inquirer - thank you :-)

kemp - I think the end may have gotten cut off... maybe hit entter more often Ralph

Glandmaster - Ralph I think it helps if you guys just give me one question at a time to respond to. So the War on Drugs is an unmitigated disaster, not only for users of psychedelics, but for our whole society. It's a racially motivated policy of suppression of dissenting voices in a culture, and the totally ineffective and inapproporiate turning a public health problem (addiction) into a law-enforcement issue. The united States has just about the most... Ralph end

liquis - psilo is up next

psilo - okay, sorry if this sounds like a multipart question
psilo - please forgive me if this is an all too personal question, lord knows I don't want you to have to incriminate yourself! But in light of a statement of Alan Watts regarding psychedelics,
psilo - where he says "When you get the message, hang up the phone," I was wondering if you still find personal benefit to be gained in the psychedelic experience?
psilo - basically, is the psychedlic trip something worthwhile in repeating, and can something new be gained from each peak experience?
psilo - or does there come a point when it just becomes a reminder of what one has already learned?

Ralph - i think of the psychedelics as non-specific psychic amplifiers. The experience you have is a function of "set and setting", as Tim Leary used to say; or of intention, as i would say now.
Ralph - And that's true of any state of consciousness, including this one -- wht's happening here is a function of each of our intentions and interests, and then there's the setting (the IRC).
Ralph - The Alan Watts remark sounds clever, and is valid for certain kinds of communications.
Ralph - However, when you're in touch with "God", say, or you're deceased grandparents, or
Ralph - your lover, or a wise person you've just met, why would you hang up the phone?
Ralph - Psychedelics are ways that the message can be heard more clearly perhaps. But it still depends on the question you're asking, which is the intention. Hope that makes sense. End

eso - What do you suggest are the best ways to go about spreading knowledge of entheogens and alchemy amidst illegality in the US and most everywhere else?
eso - How can we overcome the fact that we need to teach and share the information on the growth and spiritual use of entheogenic plants and alchemy yet the very real possibility of getting one's freedom taken unjustly makes it very hard not to turn good knowledge into secretive hermit-hobbies??
eso - There are many like myself who feel they know important things that others need to wake up and become aware of, but also having to live safely with a family, in a town or city, in a state etc where the very info that desperately needs to be shared is the same information that law enforcent could come destroy a family's life with.

Ralph - Well, what's really the point of sharing information with those who do not ask for that information, or who have other agendas. You have to use discretion and discernment.
Ralph - the use of psychedelics has always been a secret tradition, because it's so easily misunderstood, even by well-meaning people.
Ralph - It was the same in the Middle Ages as now: growing certain plants in your garden could get you hauled before the Inquisition.
Ralph - The information about plants and substances that assist the mind is out there, thanks to the writings of Hofmann, and Shulgin, and many others, myself included, and thanks to the dedicated work of growers and makers, the tool are available. In my work, what I can contribute is the divination methods with which to work in varying states of consciousness, and find the answers that are meaningful to yourself and your family and communit

senz - sn0cks would be next in line

sn0cks - ok, hello dr. metzner, I was wondering that from your vantage
sn0cks - point, where do you see psychedelics going in terms of the
sn0cks - political and social barriers that surround their use? I was
sn0cks - thinking on this in light of russia's government recently
sn0cks - re-opening psychedelic research. Do you see the doors closing
sn0cks - or opening, as of now, in that sphere, and for cognitive
sn0cks - freedom in general ?

Ralph - I know my friend Stan Grof has just returned from Russia, where he's giving talks to 800 people interested in transpersonal psychology and applications of psychedelics and breathwork. There are many more scientific research projects under way than there were 5 years ago. The Heffter Organization, and MAPS are two organization that sponsor and support such work. Also, there's a World Psychedelic Forumk, an international conference, Ma
Ralph - At the same time -- doors are closing too, in the larger society, fascism suppression of information and dissidence is increasing in American society particularly. A good time to stay alert. End.

sn0cks - thank you

liquis - we have one or two more questions

loom - hello ralph =)
loom - i want to ask you about my favorite topic: do you think we, as humans, do have "free will"? my actual question on this background is: is there any possibility for a "true" "random" event to happen, is something like that even possible? maybe you see my direction.. what do you think or feel?

|--DickCheney has left yage.net:6697 (Ping timeout)

Ralph - Is Dick Cheney the nickname of one of the participants? Or do you mean the Vice-President. If the latter that's the best news i've heard in months. end

kemp - heh, I doubt he's the real deal

Ralph - Regarding "free will" and "randomness", i don't spend much time on highly abstract issues like that

loom - allright

kemp - shall we do one more question Ralph?

Ralph - I do know this: when you expand awareness, take a larger context into account, you increase your choices. For example, when you become aware that you're afraid or someone, or angry at someone, and you remember who you are, then you can make different choices, freely. I'd call that Free will. end
Ralph - Okay, let's have one more question.

kemp - eupho, your up

eupho - Hello Ralph, sorry to bug you at the end of the forum... I woke up late Anyway,
eupho - In light of the Swiss' reclassification of lsd as an experimental theraputic agent after more than three decades of prohibition, do you believe the breadth of fear generated by the analogue act will dissuade other foreign scientific commumities from taking the Swiss cue to reassert the need to use semi/banned psychopharmacopia such as those presented by Alexander Shulgin in their studies? Do you see things actually moving up the
eupho - the hill that prohibition presents?

Ralph - Well, we did actually talk about this earlier. But generally, yes, there are more scientific studies of psychedelics now than at any time since the mid-sixties, more in Europe than in the US, but here too.

eupho - That is comforting, coming from an academic such as yourself. Sorry to be redundant.

Ralph - The Drug war and prohibition is a dark cloud that hangs over our whole society, infecting all science and human welfare with a toxic cloud of paranoia and hatred. It should be ended. period. end

ObOdAoUr - Thank you very much Ralph for joining us today and for all the work you do!

kemp - Dr. Metzner, thank you very much for stopping in today.
kemp - We really do appreciate your time!
kemp - great answers to some great questions

senz - thank you very much and have a good 2008!

Ralph - You're totally welcome, and thanks for the invitation. End

|--Ralph has left yage.net:6697 (Quit: sometimes you just have to know when to say when...)

[Glandmaster]

Ful log now available - I will add hyperlinks as I get the time / inspiration. Untill the wiki is open again please PM me any changes you think would improve the log.

//http://deoxy.org/wiki/Chat_Logs/Ralph_Metzner

[kemp]

I forgot to thank you GM... thanks for getting this posted! I just made it a sticky thread too.

It was a great chat indeed  

[boomer2]

Thanks for posting this great read.  I have met and conversed with Ralph on several occasions and also contributed to his book, Teonanácatl: Sacred mushrooms of Visions.

His insight posted here is a great boon to the scientific and academic community as well as to members of this forum.

Thanks for the knowledge and the spread of knowledge.

boomer2