Anti semitism in the psychedelic world

[judih]

Israel is a country. Israel the country was formally born in 1948. We'll be 59 this year. That's all. Since getting this sand dune filled with the occasional swamp and lots of mosquito laden disease beds, things have moved rather quickly.
Israel is not joking. Israel means to be a home for Jews. The Holocaust was no joke. Being slaughtered made an impression on those Jews who survived WWII.

This factor is a major player in why Israel now is so insistent on keeping a strong central goal of survival.

It's not easy to read this when a person doesn't live here. It's almost impossible for a Westerner to grasp this vital energetic ohm.

At the same time, Jews are devoted to the idea of humanity. It's appalling that we fall into the role of oppressor when we've just escaped from being so utterly victimized. Yet, our government has put us in that position.

Gov't is not religion, is not Judaism, is nothing but government.

America is not her government.

America is not her war policies.

And JRL's comment that Spark is dramatically missing the point of this entire thread is right on. JRL would like to live a life without hearing hatred thrown on another group of human beings.
Who is Spark to claim to have the inside track on an entire issue that he or she has only read about.

Walking in the other person's shoes would do a lot for mutual understanding.

If every government official were to walk in the shoes of those affected by policy, things might rapidly change to a more humane stance on every issue that arises.

But government is notorious for being interested in self-survival.
And that's the sad nature of politics. The humane, wise seers do not run for office. They're busy doing things to heal the rifts created by misunderstanding.

Many people around here work daily to bring Palestinians and Israelis together - starting with education, teachers and students.

This kind of thing is not in general broadcast to people like Spark. Excuse me, Spark, for pinpointing you but you might actually listen if I call your name.

You call mine. You decide who I am, what zionism is, what is right. Perhaps you might be open to listening. Just as you would have me listen.

good morning, all. this is a five thirty a.m. post. No glasses and i do need glasses these days to see clearly, so excuse missing words, letters, thoughts.

Just know that for every link on the Internet, there are 12 more that say the opposite. The age of over information is upon us. If we could get simple again, we might be able to hear one another.

judih

[Stonehenge]

At the same time, Jews are devoted to the idea of humanity. It's appalling that we fall into the role of oppressor when we've just escaped from being so utterly victimized. Yet, our government has put us in that position.

Gov't is not religion, is not Judaism, is nothing but government.

America is not her government.

America is not her war policies.

Good points, judih. I think some people use the actions of Isreal as an excuse to attack people for their ethnicity or religion. I think we are all in agreement that this is wrong. At the same time it's possible to criticize a government and it's actions without at the same time criticizing everyone in the country or their religion. I don't like it when someone blasts me personally for being an imperialist based on what Bush and company are doing. I'm against that myself.

[judih]

thanks, stonehenge, for listening and making that point. No one has the right to tell anyone else to 'shut up'/'stop talking'. Yet, it would be nice if talk were based on true individual thought, rather than spewed diatribe.

Till a person lives a thing, it's not really hers or his.
i remember myself telling people how things truly are when i was in my early 20's. How did i know? i mean, truly, i knew a lot, because i'd suffered a lot and had scraped away a lot of garbage i'd been fed. But still, who was i to preach to someone who had their own experiences and had drawn their own conclusions about survival and compassion?

i can criticize, but often i find i am criticizing what i most detest about myself. i see the world as only my experience allows me.

and that is an ever-changing lens.

[senorsalvia]

For me, this thread is a prime example of the "information age/net world/instant access/electronic community, as we find it today...  People from so many differing backgrounds, faiths,political and social agendas"...As this thread has run its course, I find myself fascinated by the differing viewpoints presented, but even more;  I find myself uplifed for the most part!!!   Of all diverse positions  I must say,  I'm glad to be a part of a community such as this, that shows a basic trend for inclusion and acceptance....  A willingness of its participants to "go the extra mile "in an attempt to understand and accomodate the views"    Once again, when all is said and done,  SP Refuge looks purdy shiney eh?--sal

[spark]

http://www.talmudunmasked.com/
http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/
http://zionismexplained.org/
http://www.ziopedia.org/
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Peace out.

[laughingwillow]

In case anyone here didn't take the time to read any of the links provided above, I found this one interesting........

Israel versus Judaism

This website was created to expose the violence and oppression perpetrated by the Zionists and their State of "Israel" against the Jewish people who remain true to the Almighty, Judaism and the Torah.

Judaism does not condone violence. Judaism demands that Jews be good citizens of the countries in which they reside and that they live peacefully with respect for and subservience to the ruling powers.

Judaism teaches us, that the right for the Jewish people to have self rule in the Holy Land is not unconditional. Since the destruction of our Holy Temple over two thousand years ago, the Jewish people have been exiled from this land by Divine decree. The Talmud tells us that G-d obligated us not to rebel against the ruling bodies, and not to take the land of Israel by force (see Babylonian Talmud tractate Kesubos 111A).

The aggression that Zionism presents in taking the land from the indigenous Palestinian people is the first flag that exposes this movement for what it is -- a real deviation from Judaism. Judaism forbids us from taking the land away from those who currently have jurisdiction over it. That such things should be done not only in opposition to Judaism, but in the name of the very Judaism it defies is simply large-scale fraud. Zionism, once exposed, proves to be the greatest enemy, the worst nightmare, to the Jewish religion and it's practitioners, that exists to date. Zionism, strikes out regularly at Jews who remain true to Torah and its precepts. There are many Jews who protest against the very existence of the State of Israel, and who are quite vocal, albeit peaceful, about their opposition. Whenever Zionist policies or activities run counter to the Torah stance, Torah-true Jews come forward to unmask the imposter. Unfortunately, they have many opportunities to voice their stand, because few countries in the world tramples on the religious rights of its inhabitants as regularly as does the State of Israel. Witness, the routine autopsies which are done against the stated, tearful wishes of the family. Witness, the ancient, sacred burial grounds ripped open with abandon for the construction of yet another mall, with bare bones, hundreds of years old treated to the absolute desecration of careless disposal, and the list goes on and on... Protesters suffer terribly at the hands of the Zionists, who try to quash all opposition and deal with their peaceful detractors in the most brutal fashion. This fact, too, is yet another proof that this movement cannot speak for Judaism -- because Judaism opposes aggression and would never sanction the bloodshed of brothers who seek only to remain true to the Torah.

This is, unfortunately, a little-known fact - that Zionism is constantly criticized by the fervently Orthodox Jews - critics whose opposition is not predicated on the political correctness of our point in time, and that these detractors do so under pain of physical torture. The secular establishment, which by and large celebrates Zionism as a replacement for Judaism, a transformation that does not mandate any religious observance per se, hogs the traditional media venues and will not be party to letting the voice of the observant Jew, be known. The worldwide Jewish Federations, Jewish Agency and similar organizations claim to speak for all Jews but actually represent only the views of a misguided segment of the Jewish people. "Israel" today is equated with "Jew" - but what a travesty! The Israeli government is quite happy to have gotten away with this fraud, and certainly won't allow news of any cracks in the mask to be recognized. The average reader today will not see this in the press, because the powers to be, don't want you to know this.

But as the pictures and articles on this site demonstrate, opposition to Zionism from within Judaism is not a fringe movement but rather, an intrinsic characteristic and a mainstay of Judaism itself. This opposition has continually suffersd bloodshed and tremendous tragedy. Jews who are loyal to the Torah find it imperative to have the following points on the record:

Zionism is not Judaism.
The founding principles of Zionism run counter to Judaism.
The State of "Israel" dose not represent the Jewish people.
Aggressive acts committed in the name of Zionism are crimes and not religious imperatives.
Zionists have no right to commit violent acts towards anyone ââ,¬â€œ neither Palestinian nor Jew

[JRL]

Obviously the writing of a black hat ultra orthodox person, actually a religous zionist.

See the ultra orthodox feel that a secular Israel is wrong, and in time god will give them dominion over Israel, at least as I understand it.

[Juicemonkey]

That's all. Since getting this sand dune filled with the occasional swamp and lots of mosquito laden disease beds, things have moved rather quickly.

Denial is not a River

the sand dune and swamp you talk about has a name
it is called Palestine
and it was already long inhabited by people called Palestinians

here ill pull up a picture so you can see their faces, traditional dress and their humanity


I know your sickness. My country had it until recently
its the sickness of believing in the notion of Terra nullius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#West_Bank
Until Israel deals with that then its just feeding the hate that grows against it

Im definitely anti-Israeli. Obvious reasons
Im anti-Jewish too - all religions are wrong whether they be the outdated windows 98 of judaism, the stagnat xp of christianity or the dysfunctional Vista of Islam.  Youre all just plain wrong.

but anti-semite. no
Youre all just people, like me, till you choose a political position

[Floyd]

I want to know how exactly anti-semitism is defined.
Usually its defined as a sort of racism, as if all Jewish people share the same genetics. Thats bull. A previous poster mentioned curly hair and large nose as typifiing jewish people. No that typifies middle eastern people. There are people who identify themselves as jewish that are clearly from a british heritage, a russian heritage, and african heritage. To base it on genetics is silly. And anti-semitism justified by race is rightly horrid.

But if instead you define Anti-semitism as being against the jewish religion than I'll be the first to say i'm an anti-semite in that i'm againt jewish religion in the same way i'm against christian and muslim religion. Its a rediculous fairy tale. And quite frankly, any religion that makes convenants with god by removing earthly pleasures through cutting genitals is quite abhorrent.

If its based on the state of Isreal, then again that makes a lot of us anti-semites. I don't know how anyone can overlook the fact that the Palestinian people were displaced. They were displaced to make room for a state that is basically a military base for U.S. interests. Its supported by the U.S. only because there is a sizable Jewish lobby in the U.S. from the mass immigration after WWII. So if thinking that Israel shouldn't exist makes you an anti-semite then again I'm anti-semitic.

So define anti-semitism because from my experience it isn't as clear cut as pure racism.

and just to note..I don't know what was said in the chat. If racial slurs were used then of course it was disgusting.


Benevolence out.

[judih]

I appreciate you finding an image to enhance your post, but you seem to be anti-israel and pro-palestine. Interesting that you have decided to throw your support behind one side and not another.

I'd just like to point out that there is such a thing as the State of Israel, in spite of what you'd prefer to think.
//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The Palestinians were offered a 2-state compromise by the U.N. back at that time and they refused it.

You refer to a 'sickness'. Are you American? Are you referring to the slow annihilation of the First Nations? Or are you speaking of Afghanistan or Viet Nam? I don't know what you're talking about, specifically.
Israel has no choice, here. We're not bored or attempting to conquer distant oil fields. We want to make sure our kindergartens aren't bombed. We prefer to wake up to sparrows rather than booms.

It's easy to preach names and abstract philosophies when it's not you who's being targeted.
Do you live in the area?

Do you feel that you're helping pave the way to peace by denying the fact that there is a country called Israel? I just don't get your point.

And please, don't bring in opinions of those who live in the West Bank. They will be leaving there, no matter what they themselves believe.

[JRL]

Well put, Judih

[kemp]

There are two sides to this, and every story/war/conflict. Claiming that one side is solely responsible for the problems in the world, and specifically in the middle east, is like saying there is only night, no day or only up and no down. It doesn't make sense and only highlights your ignorance.

Ignorance, case and point (From the other thread) =

So I say
Go Hamas
Fire those rockets
You've earned the right
If youre gonna go down, go down with a fight

Until both sides decide to lay down arms and stop fighting over land, of which none of us own, the fighting/dying will continue.

[laughingwillow]

.... and here lies the crux of the problem, imo.

An equitable solution might not be possible until both sides manage to view the issue from the prospective of their neighbor. However, the ability to see both or multiple sides of an issue doesn't seem to be a dominant trait of the current human condition. (At least not in our neck of the woods.) Instead, we tend to choose sides and attempt to diminish or dismiss the validity of the other perspective in question.  (Sports and politics come to mind here.)

Empathy on some levels, imo, might be a recessive human trait; something that needs to be developed.

Entheogens have the ability to lead us to empathy, imo. One step in the process is accomplished when the initiate manages to attain multiple perspectives of a single object at the same time. Another facet of this training is to force the initiate to to see him/herself through the perspective of others in the immediate group. However, not many people really enjoy the last exercise mentioned as it tends to uncover details of our personalities we'd rather gloss over or ignore all together.

And as long as I'm on this little rant........

I read an earlier post or maybe a post in another thread recently that condemned all major religions as being bad. But I don't see the bible nor torah nor koran as being evil. Rather, I'm amazed at the beautifully spiritual subtext that remains in the bible, even after centuries of biased translations.

People are both problem as well as potential solution, imo. But first we must realize on a deep but accessible level that all cats are gray.

lw