Martial Arts

[laughingwillow]

jiku: Feel free to speak for this fool any time, bro. Matter of fact, I composed this one to come from you.

Fierce tempest rises
from motion of silver spoon
in matching teapot.......

lw

[Satori]

and I knew the mistake of trying to even talk about enlightenment, but I had to try, as you pointed out in your quote, words can be a necessary evil (but not always). The key point I have difficulty with discerning in fuzz's posts, and am trying to communicate in my post is the concept of practice and experience. You just can't get those from a book. I study with a zen master because he coaches me on how to practice, nothing more. He is sort of like any other coach. There are drills, and such, but when game time comes around, he isn't the one doing the work.

Two things to this.
I really think that the retorics of "words can be a necessary evil", is totally misguided to begin with. I really don't think words are any evil. Ones use of the words can be evil. But not the words themselves. And they can be used to point to beauty.
As for the coach thing. I agree that it is necessary to have a teacher to guide one through ones process. But that's how it is in most institutions where one learns or teaches, and develops? You read a book, and some dude tells you about stuff related to, and how to best understand and follow the points. And that happens on many different levels. From simpel childrens books to hardcore philosophical and religious texts.
Seems pretty normal to me. hehe;)

[laughingwillow]

Satori: What you say makes sense from an intellectual standpoint.

However, I believe there is another type of "enlightenment" that has little/nothing to do with knowledge gleaned from a book. I would call this spiritual or even emotional enlightenment, maybe. When words are used in this type of enlightenment, their impact is emotional rather than intellectual, imo.

lw

[jikuhchagi]

LW, I like it!

Satori, Misguided? Methinks you must be an author, LOL!

Words are difficult and slippery at best, especially when you are trying to talk about the undescribable. Ever try to communicate an enthogenic experience? My bet is that whomever was listening to you could only relate whatever you said to their own experience. Thats not really communciation, just association. Now try and do the same thing with someone who has never had an entheogenic experience. Sometimes words are inadequate at best.

Words can point to beauty, and although I do appreciate poetry, lyric and song, it all depends upon the skill of the person using them, and the understanding of the one who is receiving them. Most of the time, though, the most powerful words used as symbols and images are devoid of any implied meaning by the author, and the reader is free to associate them as they see fit. Robert Hunter is a good resource if you care to read up more about that.

As for words, though, in my humble experience, telepathy works so much better, when its on. LOL! Too bad I've never been able to harness it. :roll:

Regardless, this is a world of duality so saying 'Words can be a necessary evil' is no worse (or misguided) than saying that 'Words can point to beautry'. Neither negates the other as they are two sides to the same coin.

Still I would be interested in hearing a more well developed argument if you care to pose one.

Also, a coach is a LOT different than a teacher. There is a big difference. And my coach doesn't have us read any books, LOL!

On a certain level, I have no issue with reading. Believe me, I have read my share in the past. Books can expose you to a lot of ideas, and thats all well and good, but until you actually put the book down and apply those ideas directly through some practice, you aren't really doing anything.

For instance, I can read a book about watercolor painting, one on color theory, one on lighting techniques and one on brush stroke techniques, but until I put the book down and start painting, I certainly can't say I learned anything, nor will I ever actually know if I did. Does that make sense?

[Satori]

Sorry for the late reply, but I have been busy planning and taking care of a trip to Japan, starting at the end of this month, and going til August weee!

But I will sort of reply to the two above posts:
LW: I am glad my post makes sense on an intellectual level. Because I think it is important to combine the spiritual side with the intellectual. So that one gets a sort of spiritual intellect. I think this is important, to always keep ones mind sharp, and still develop ones spirituality. And also be able to express it to others, and live a religious/spiritual ethic life. (I think Ibn ‘Arabi has a lot of good reflections on this. I think it is from him I have gotten inspired to this idea. But I don’t see other traditions disagreeing with this point…)

Jikuhchagi: “Regardless, this is a world of duality so saying 'Words can be a necessary evil' is no worse (or misguided) than saying that 'Words can point to beautry'. Neither negates the other as they are two sides to the same coin”
That sentence shows we don’t disagree so much at all. I just have a bit of a different way of viewing it.
I view it, also as you say. There are two levels of reality. One is the conventional level, which is the level of distinction. Where paintings, words, music, selves are arising and dissolving etc. And then there is the Absolute level, which is the level where there is no distinctions. These two levels co-exist, and one cannot be without the other.
Now, from the conventional level, every talk about the Absolute is from a point of the conventional level. And will, as you also say, not ever convey the Absolute in its totality, but, as Nagarjuna also said, one cannot help but try to convey it anyway. So therefore the question arises: How does one use words the best as a skillfull mean to lead towards the moon . And the same with music, paintings, and other arts and craftmanships.
I think this question is a necessary question to ask as an ethical question, since it will be the means of using the conventional as a skillfull means to lead others to realise certain aspects of reality. To use words wrongly, false words, will trap people further into a sort of lie that clings to the ephemeral phaenomenons in the conventional level.
Kûkai also explains (udfolder in danish, don't know a good word for it in english) out a theory of the correct way of using words a whole lot in his esoteric Shingon (which means “Truth Words” in Japanese.), where mandala, mantra, mudra etc. practises are used to attain enlightenment.
And to use words in a good way, I also think, as I replied to LW, that it is good to have sharpened ones spiritual intellect, and not just forget about that part of reality.
For, to be sure, to cling to the absolute, and forget about the conventional reality, is often referred to as Sunyata-sickness, or sunyata-perversity. Which is an attachment to the Absolute, where one will loose the ground for enlightenment, which is the conventional. The two levels co-exist.

About the teacher vs. coach thing. I just want to say that I meant more the general tencency, that there is a student/searcher/novice and a teacher/pandit/guru/coach. Where the latter instructs the former. I see this as the general way it is?
And to be sure, your zen-master does use words when he coaches you, right? Or do you sit and stare at each other in silence? Hehe
Words do exist outside of books

And yes it makes a lot of sense that one needs to practice to get anywhere. Only reading is not a very good idea if one wants to develop beyond certain levels . But I do think, as stated, that words and books (as well as paintings, music etc.), can help one sharpen and change perspectives that is good to have in one's practical life as well.
That’s also why I started Aikido 4 years ago. And have been doing Zazen meditation, some yoga etc. Because I do find that side to be very important, as you also say.

Edit: Formulationmistakes corrected.

[Satori]

Edit: Post deleted. It would be nice if people could keep their not-thought-through assumptions for themselves. I don't know you peoples personal lives, and you don't know mine. So please keep that away from here.

[laughingwillow]

Sorry for pointing out that detail of your personal life, bro. :roll:

Back to the topic, at hand... Congrats on the time you've spent studying Aikkido. Excuse me for my ignorance on this paticular martial art, but is there a celebration or something for every year completed?  

lw

[Satori]

Sorry for pointing out that detail of your personal life, bro. :roll:

Back to the topic, at hand... Congrats on the time you've spent studying Aikkido. Excuse me for my ignorance on this paticular martial art, but is there a celebration or something for every year completed?  

lw

Well, you didn't actually point anything out from my personal life . Since it was false.

Thanks alot on the congrats there .
Usually you pass a grade every year, going, as an adult starting with shôkyu and then from 5th kyu to 1st kyu, and then the Dan degrees. I think. But since I have been very busy with getting school work to work out, I have only passed two. The Shôkyu and 5th Kyu. hehe.
On top of that we also have Ki-tests. Which is very Ki-oriented and is about to get a more wholistic experience of the body.
But man, after a few years, when some of the movements start to flow, and one learns these ki-excersises, ones body-awareness really change. I have started experiencing some really nice stuff, with unity of body-mind and a more easily controlled breathing in periods of stress, which is helping so much in daily life and studies too.