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maybe, just MAYBE they've learned that blacklights attract insects
nice juicy insects....
Yummmmmm.....

Or that they see the light and the insects and are attracted
the movement of disco lights may seem like a swarm of insects to them
I think that's very likely.

Good luck with that EA!
Hummm regarding the site....

I will say that it would greatly help if people started taking their picts
with a ruler or measuring stick of some sort set against the plant
(yes, I know I'm guilty of doing this too)
 :roll:

just a  thought.

Agreed.

I will admit that I'm very serious about this issue
and that it was taken the wrong way then...
Perhaps using a " " would have helped.

[Why speak of ending this and then throw stones?]

Why do you make a call for peace
and then turn around and antagonize me?

Please re read my post again.
This thread was positive, about the saving,
retaining and conservation of certain valuable plants
Not about careless destruction or ego's.

Why speak of ending this and then throw stones?

[I didn't come here for that.]

CJ, I hear what you're saying as well.

I think that it's all boiled down to
opposing points are done and long gone.
If they even had any, other than a kneejerk "don't tell me what to do..."

It's moved from being a statement and advocacy,
To a discussion,
Down into some people belching out hollow positions and personal attacks

What's Left?
Ganging up against the "other side" and hard feelings "just because...xyz"?

I didn't come here for that.
and I shouldn't have gotten sucked into it.

Both my own, and others energy on this issue is better spent elsewhere
Besides, the only real reason to continue would be IF they're
involved in the enthno-botanicals trade and profited from sold chips.
and we're not allowed to go there... even if they were.

Thank you to everyone who's read this thread from start to finish.
and thank you EA, Amomynous and others for both your positive insights and support over this concern.

Sincerely,
flip.

Hummmmm.

So what your saying is that you are going to feed the cycle
by adding fuel and pushing harder for actual illegality?

[EA-1306 and I are not the same person.Nor, have I knowingly discussed with EA-1306 via PM/Em any other method regarding this thread subject.So please lets put that to rest.What I say as "flip" comes from "flip".]

EA-1306 and I are not the same person.
Nor, have I knowingly discussed with EA-1306
via PM/Em any other method regarding this thread subject.
So please lets put that to rest.
What I say as "flip" comes from "flip".
EA simply agrees with some of the things I've said.

<- This is my icon, (notice the cacti over the heart of the saint).



I've tried to make the points simple and clear (despite my wordiness and elaboration)
Yes there is a difference in the opinion here of  "just what is the right thing"
and that has to do with personal perspective or rather in some cases, personal deception.
There are those people in the world that actually enjoy being rebels for the childish sake of rebellion
to set themselves up a identity for themselves as valiant martyrs.
to the extent that their blinded to the real issues at hand.
and only think of themselves.

I've had the charge of Elitism leveled against me
Fine, Great, THANKS... I wouldn't be able to have that charge thrown at me and had it stick
 -if I was an idiot... or even a fool or completely wrong. (isn't that right?)

The good thing about the net is that it tends to negate social status, color creed, wealth and even peoples bad breath.
what's left is the points one makes.
If I was so very wrong and inept, this thread would not have gotten past the first page.
Your own personal attacks actually verify the validity of what you refuse to accept.
Otherwise your would refute the basic principles of what I said;
Dried cacti are going "to bring the hammer down" and everyone loses!
But ironically, you haven't and seem to be incapable of is offering is a better workable alterative !

All the posturing over "cognitive liberty" are in fact mute and faint at best.
(To tell the truth) It actually shows your desperation...
The federal government has dominion over what people can and can't do
as part of the social contract that empowers them.
Governments "imprison" schizophrenics  and other mentaly ill people
Go talk about cognitive liberty to them overdosed on medications.
in this post 1984 prozac nation
After that, go and  talk about "free personal choices" to people in jail.
and after that, go and talk to those people in jail for selling illegal
or even unscheduled drugs! (just try talking to pondman)

LW

However cognitive liberty, to me, is individual freedom to choose.

Yes, it sounds nice for people to read... and it makes them feel good.
But you and me live in a community (real world and net) and as such,
have a set of rules of society that you can either live by and be part of that said society
or suffer whatever "corrective forces" that social order has devised.
The problem is that I may also greatly suffer (in the real world)
because of someone else's irresponsible (real world) actions.

In short, your rights stop at the tip of my nose.
Go conduct yourself in another society -where you can't affect me.
it's YOUR CHOICE.

I'm very tired of having to also pay for the assorted asshat's and retard  fuckups.
Both myself and others are saying... Enough is Enough and drawing a line.
There are people who have spent decades caring for WONDERFUL CACTI
that do not want to toss them all into a chipper because of a few lazy people
who are claiming "it's my right to be a foolish asshole, Fuck You! because I'm lazy! and I say it's a right despite the law that says otherwise!".
But you know what?
Again, that all stops at the tip of my nose...
You do not have the right to affect me unjustly? because of your being a illegal asshole/fool

LW

I have no doubt the powers-who-be will eventually schedule pedro and allies. But I refuse to let that concern me to the point of giving up my religion, which is based on a relationship with god through active sacrament.

What's that?  HUH? That's' crazy Especially when EA-1306 has pointed out that in the DECADES that mescaline's been known in the trich's it's NEVER MADE IT INTO THE DEA's publications!
But after only after a few months dried cacti chips get into the DEA's Microgram: Microgram 1, Microgram 2!
I find that lack of concern for other people and self delusion to be at the core of our position.
Despite claims to the contrary.
And TELL ME JUST HOW the lack of dried cacti chips sold via the net is going to affect
ANY recognized religion in the United States, AUS or UK?
Can't do that? Ok, I'll make it easier, how about any unrecognized religion?
Can't do that Either? huh?  Well, thats because you're full of shit!
But it all sounds really nice...  to those that you wish to set yourself up as a heroic rebel martyr of the people:lol:
It's all about popularity contest in the forums... isn't it?

To profess certainty toward a course of action for an entire community is simplistic and egotistical, imo.

Do you have any theory or data that says that cacti chips will not lead to drug enforcement?
Seems to me that you already have accepted my basic points in your own words(above)
Therefore, your position and arguments are part of the problem and not the solution.
Suggest a working solution! or sit down and the Shut the F up!

I'd prefer you to argue a position rather than have to wade through the blather you've posted from time to time in this thread.

Yes, I can see you try to attack the person and their supporters vs  the points made.
Please address the validity of the points. Otherwise it's all  BS

Adding another layer of management by those professing to know what's best for the community, is the issue at hand.

it certainly seem that your way has been successful...  hasn't it?
isn't it a simple matter of taking the information of the how too's
and selfishly ignore the responsibilities that are also inherent?
That is the sole reason why we have illegality of certain molecules and substances
in the first place.
Thank you very much for continuing to be part of the problem.

It's because of the selfishness and irresponsible abuses of others
that those who have put in the time and effort - will also suffer.
The simple STUPIDITY of thumbing your nose at authority in power that
has also made it's way into thumbing your nose at people that actually
have something to lose!
and shouldn't even have to suffer in the first place!

People who order dried cacti chips do not operate in a vacuum!
Otherwise, this wouldn't be a issue...
HOWEVER, IF you wanted to compensate EVERYONE for their losses due
to your illegal and irresponsible actions... well thats fine... problem solved.
But I seriously doubt that you have the assets to do that.
instead you rather force others to bear your burdens!

I eagerly await your reply.

[but a public one.]

you know, it would all be different (imo) IF someone's actions
weren't able to affect me or those things I care about.
But the personal actions of others can have serious long ranging repercussions
In this context it's not a personal /private situation at all, but a public one.
As such, it's an actual duty as a citizen to alert
and try to prevent  unnecessary harm and injustice.

We've all seen what happens when the government takes action!
and nobody is arguing that they wont if this continues.
There is no reason to replay the disaster of the Research Chemical market and operation webtrypt.

I suggested a course of action that would seriously reduce the threat
and yet still leave a viable avenue open for people to legally grow cacti.

All it takes are a few bad apples...  lets please stop arguing and move on
to FIXING and PREVENTING the actions of a few from adversely affecting the many.

What do we have to do?!?
Does it take a actual lawsuit on behalf of all the different commercial
cacti growers, retailers and cacti associations
against the different vendors for potential loss of all future income
and destruction of current stock to make the point clear?

To all the vendors ... it's something that very well can be done.
especially since the DEA's microgram's detailing of dried cacti chips
and not once, ever mentioned live cacti cuttings.




and thanks Amomynous

The DEA's Microgram is out and it's full of interesting goodies
That make it past the filtering that edits out all the really interesting stuff.
The latest one is from (May 2005 -before this thread started).
That edition took two months to make it out of the editing process.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/foren ... index.html

Read about the cacti chips that the local lab in Illinois got....
As said before the main federal lab has gotten many other samples.

it's also worth noting that there are no arrests or other data
on the source of the (leftover?) 25 grams of chips.
They could have been obtained from a minor, their parents,
or someone that is "cooperative".  

I view this as the DEA's notification method to it's agents
to search and report such "chips". it's data collection to gauge the problem.
it's the same thing that preceded emergency scheduling of the early RC's GHB and others.

I'll leave the rest for this forum to discuss.

[everyone]

The beauty of cacti does not require a collector, but a collector who is passionate about the beauty of these life forms and truly scorns their acquisition for a "high" has nothing to worry about, even under the more draconian proposed laws, correct?

Incorrect.
Try telling that to the people that can't grow hemp for textiles.
Ignorance of the law - is no defense.
and since you're active on these boards many things can be surmised.

It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.

Here here!
The underground railroad ran for years. and it was those freed slaves
that escaped that proved most valuable in the fight against slavery.
Now if they tried to "escape" above ground yelling "FUCK YOU WHITEMAN"
they we're "punished" hobbled, castrated or simply lynched right there.

I want abolish slavery myself, but to do that we need to be smart(er).




everyone

I need your imput.

I've gotten a few replies from different vendors
and they make a valid point about the sales being legal
within their own nations and do not look likely to have
those laws change in the future (peru for example)

and would like to continue to serve their fellow citizens
(alright it's a bit pricey and listed in USD currencies on their website... but "whatever")

I have a certain vendor that has floated the idea of
restricting sales of peelings away from nations where it might cause problems. (namely the USA)
What does the larger community say about having peelings shipments
not being sent down to lets say AUS and the UK in addition to the USA?

I feel that the USA is the primary, not only because I live there,
they're also the very uptight about such things with heavy laws.
and they tend to bully other nations into complying with it's laws.

Do you guys and gals feel that your government isn't going to care
about peelings or make the distinction between those
and the live plants/seeds.

It seems that AUS outlawed kratom plants as well as the powder
that people were using for making tea.
and should be added to the "no ship to list" as well as the UK.

Thoughts please before I reply...

Well heres one,nobody has been discussing this aspect of the matter here,it seems. There is more to that then may be on the surface. Perhaps there may be more than one way to deal w/ a problem ,then opening a crusade over it,or should I say,a can of worms?

Agreed, and I'm sorry for my tone... if that offends.
I'm not trying to barge onto every forum I can to blabber away...
I believe that would only cause more problems and be actually destructive.
I spent some time thinking about this.

I know that others have gone about things their own way.
Mine is not the only way to do things.
I'm just feeling that there is a real chance to keep things safe(er).
on many levels... not to mention keeping people from breaking the law.
and this is my approach... perhaps I'm being a bit more of the "stick" vs the "carrot" (if thats even applicable)
but I've been reading some frightening things from the "tongue dippers" as you say...
and I can see it coming...
there's much that I haven't said
and I've been weighing my posts..
I just don't want any sort of harm done.
and that peeled cacti isn't required by anyone
but it carries unacceptable risks.

I just honestly believe that trying to do something
is much better than doing nothing and letting others
recklessness take charge.

[In that case all the Trechocereus will be outlawed!]

I Know that there's some real good people on this forum
and I think that this is worth bringing up.

The subject has been mentioned on several other forums on the net (SAB, Lycaeum and others)
Regarding, the vender sale of pealed cacti and other processed cacti products
That are not only illegal in many nations under different assorted laws,
but also fueling the descruction of wild populations for short term $$$ gain. (K. trout)
If it continues, it'll be forcing the various drug agencies to act
and start enforcement of the laws of schedualed substances.


Live Cacti Cuttings and Seeds have legit uses
(thats why they're legal to currently buy and grow)
where as, peeled cacti are devoid of any such protection
they are being offered solely as a carrier of what is a highly illegal chemical
in a easy to use prepared form.

Cacti Peelings have been seized by US Customs (nook)
if this continues,
The assorted governments will not only ban such products
but extend enforcement of the laws to cover the entire genus of cacti.
In that case all the Trechocereus will be outlawed!
 
The illegalization of all such cacti species
That means no more gardens for anyone.
Please Think about this....

I've been advocating that such vendors be contacted
by as many people as possaible to let them know that they're
listing of peeled skins and other prepared products
is going to force you take your business elsewhere.

IF they lose money in a boycot  for as long as they're offering cacti skins
we'll be doing something to control a situation
that shouldn't have started in the first place.

There are quite a few vendors that have quickly saw the light and pulled
all such products off their pages
This does not apply to cacti seed and live cuttings

I'm asking that we start a discussion and start talking to such online vendors
and let them know the situation and to spread the word.

In short, what were talking about is:
 

• Peeled cacti are illegal as dried mushrooms in baggies
• The dried cacti have no legit uses
• The sale of peeled cacti and extracts is dangerous for the individual that orders and for the cacti themselves (removal of wild populations).
• Dried cacti sales will force the DEA (and other nations) to take action
• Such legal action will also include the illegalizing of the entire Trechocereus Genus.
• No more easy and safe cacti for anyone in the future
  (they're not like pot or fungus)

Thoughts?