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Can anyone ID this?
I can't wait until we get cheap at home DNA tests. Cactii IDing is a pain in the ass.
It has spines similar to a terscheckii of mine, but the girth isn't right for that particular plant.....
lw
The ribs have some similar characteristics, too.
lw
Is it this://http://trout.yage.net/sc/cuzcoensis_BBG/pages/Trichocereus_cuzcoensis_BBG_JonHanna_1_JPG.htm
JRL: That pic last looks like a few of my plants that I've been told were short-spined peruvians. Same spine pattern as EA posted, but much smaller, imo.
lw
On second thought, maybe when those pups get bigger they might just end up looking like EA's posted example. The spines on the old, blackened base section do appeat to have some size..
lw
I too wonder what it will look like as it gets older.
It is a two-year-old seedling.
What if it is a hybrid between the clones in the following pictures?
http://www.candyflipdesign.com/pub/flip/3wayjuuls2.jpg (http://www.candyflipdesign.com/pub/flip/3wayjuuls2.jpg)
http://www.thenook.org/forum/uploads/11 ... _77562.jpg (http://www.thenook.org/forum/uploads/1127691895/gallery_4836_65_77562.jpg)
Perhaps..that looks very like a Kimnach T. taquimbalensis. That green skin(shiny?). Spines have some dark brown,some in the tips, and at the bases(especially),and a central spine that sticks straight out or a bit down...
Essentially,there seems to be two varieties out there.yoursl ooks alot like my'clone derived' T.Taquim. only mine is over five ft. now, w/ two pups. Fast grower!!
My other one,BTW,is 'seed grown' and resembles to my eye much more a Terschekii. Flat green matte skin,an` curved spines. Slow grower. I cannot see how they could be the same species....
I took a photo of my Kimnach et al (pachanoi) today
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I have never heard of a Kimnach taquimbalensis, did Mr Kimnach collect it or was it named for him?
Here are some links to photographs of T taquimbalensis, which as you suggest is allied with terscheckii, as opposed to the pachanoi/peruvianus complex.
http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/gall ... 6_kt_1.jpg (http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/gallery2/albums/userpics/T_taquimbalensis_Kieseling_HBG68146_kt_1.jpg)
http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/gall ... G_kt_2.jpg (http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/gallery2/albums/userpics/T_taquimbalensis_MG_kt_2.jpg)
http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocer ... lensis.jpg (http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_taquimbalensis.jpg)
Here is a link to an incredible post by K Trout showing several species.
http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi- ... 919#000016 (http://www.shaman-australis.com.au/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000919#000016)
If the link doesn't work I'll find another way to get you there.
On mine, the aerioles are large, shield like,w/ white fluff. There are 8 to 10 outer spines. In the interior of the aeriole there are three spines,usually but not always longer than the rest. they form an inverted triangle,w/ the longest one closest to central,an` pointing staight out or down the other two point at an` angle to the sides an` up. The skin is darkish,and rather shiny,more so than other Trich`s.
I would love to post a photo,but am, for some reason not able to do so ,as before. i have asked in 'the Site' an gotten no reply.Nor do I have some outside folder or group to upload directly from.
If wanted,I can perhaps send you a pic.
I'd dig being directed or emails, PM me for that.
It sounds cool!
As for reference;Trout`s Sacred Cacti,Part B,- Pages 237 through 239.
I also have a few Kimnach Pachanoi,Love em!! Purty mottled exterior,and very fast growing for me.
Jus have a more interesting look than a regular Pedro...
sent you the photos..
Damn I wish I had a color edition of Trout's Notes 3rd edition part B "San Pedro"...
Most of Trouts photos in the link I posted are unpublished and not even found at the Trout's Notes website.
I hope you are not implying 'someone' does. The" dark green robust branches"(trout) isn`t a good start??? Or the decriptionof the spines or airioles, that was question as to whether yours was the same.(?) But You never answered.. Or that a photo an reference wasn`t an honest attempt? But then you didn`t even seem aware there was such a thing as "Kimnach' T.Taquimbalensis.
Also i jus read something that really bothers me... I Don` mind being wrong. Must accept at any rate,reality is. But i do mind being led down a path,unless asked.... very discourteous.
No, a color edition of San Pedro has not been made, yet. It may be but would cost $300-400 and may be sold by demand alone.
I am a bit unclear on the T taquimbalensis aspect, I do not own any examples of that species.
Being led down a path might entail deception, however asking for what might allready be known is not deception unless it entails a statement to the effect that the sought after information is unknown. Wants are not needs and though an opinion may be sought after concering a topic, it might not be required. A clarification might entail a test. Not to get too philosophical but perhaps life is very much like being asked a question that the person posing the question already knows the answer to.
There is no such thing as a wrong guess provided that guess is earnest, honest and genuine.
Here is another photograph of the seedling that began this thread.
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Shucks, I've got it now. Took me a few tries to figure this one out.
That there is a T egogenisis...
Thanks for another revealing lesson, EA.
lw
Yes LW I named it for you. :P
It is SS01 X Juuls Giant.
I never said I didn't know what it is.
You know,this is really too bad.EA. I personally would have been more than willing,willing enough anyways, too show respect and interest for what you know. I`m always willing to learn. But the fact you have to resort to deception jus`tells me the wrong thing about you.This coupled with your incessant citing of Trout`s name every chance you get,and then some, implies to me something devious and insecure. it`s obvoius you know your subjects, I don`t see why it had to be that way....
But simply put sir,you did mislead, and that by omission. You can claim otherwise,but by asking in itself,you implied you did not know the answer. That is a short step away,or plainly synomonous with lying.Personally, I find it impossible to extend myself to you now. I mean both in the general sense that I greet everyone with some benefiet of doubt, and somebody it seemed particular of note.. Sorry for the harsh words,but I have been taught better now.
I dont get the deception. Could anyone explain.
In life it is also important not to get irritated over small things that on the hole do not matter. If you do get irritated you are the only one that will suffer from it.
Thanks for the civics lesson, green2.
Cj's point is that we both thought we were helping EA to identify a specific plant. (But now I realize that ID "wanted" and ID "needed" could be construed as different requests.)
The bottom line is that neither of us would have participated in this quest if it was known that EA was simply testing the community to see who knows what rather than seeking our assistance.
Frankly, its a different segment of the community that would gather at the feet of this master or any other with the desire to show us all he/she knows.
lw
Ah
I get that you get a bit angry. Cactii ID is a pain in the ass.
Green2: As english is your second or third language, I'll try to explain...
While ID'ing cactus can be enjoyable, that's not the issue. (Although you do bring up a good point, imo. :o)
There is a difference between a person coming to the community with a request for assistance and one creating a thread and encouraging answers that are already known by the author. In most cases, its fairly easily to discern which thread is which type of the above examples. But the thread in question was composed in a way to create the impression of a person seeking assistance when it was really the other. The issue, imo, lies more with subtlies and subtext than surface content.
Btw, EA and I aren't exactly on friendly terms. I unwittingly participated in his (mock) quest for an ID in an effort create the foundation of a bridge of cooperation betwee like-minded individuals. I wouldn't have posted if I knew it involved sitting at the feet of a master wishing to share enlightenment rather that a comrade searching for a cactus ID as advertised.
lw
LW is always at odds with me for some reason.
I find it amusing that people took this as some sort of deception, I think that you guys who are offending might be taking it a little too seriously.
It might not be known but there is a consensus that all of the plants that look like this are a KK242 phenotype that some are claiming is T cuzcoensis.
I chose to included spiritplants in this experiment, by placing a plant that could be ID'd as the particular KK242 phenotype in question. Other forums were involved and this elitist forum is the only one that took offense. It shows a great deal about the prevalent mindset here.
The entire thing was inspired by a post Winder had asking about a pH of something he had already tested. The point of this post is to explore the notion that appearances for cacti cannot (at least in some cases) be definitive for species in Trichocereus. Regardless of how emotional a couple of you got over it, I feel that the purpose was well served.
Those of you who think this has to do with ego are either mistaken or are just outright fools. This is not some effort to establish expertise or even test knowledge or identification skills. This is to explore the concept that appearances in Trichocereus can be devious.
There is no such thing as a bad guess and this is one of the forums that elicited much more interesting ID's. I guess some of you just feel insulted that you didn’t guess correctly, when it was not about being right or wrong. I don’t expect a couple of you to be able to understand that given your immature behavior, however I think others will get the point that has escaped you.
What looks like a species or phenotype may actually be an intermediate. The appearance of phenotype of a cactus cannot be guaranteed to allow identification.
Another lesson might be gleaned from reading these posts, it has to do with the quality of the character of those involved. If you think that not mentioning that I knew what it was makes me a fraud, then so be it, but perhaps you consider any test of consensus fraud. I think that the tones indicate a great deal about the posters.
LW has always been a bitter person to me and I have come to expect negativity and animosity from him. CJ seems to have issues with me as well that his posts indicate go quite beyond the situation in this thread. Since this forum is known for being negative, ostracizing and elitist this comes as no surprise that some of its members would exemplify such behavior. It seems that like the moral majority they are just fishing for an excuse to take offense.
Well, its only natural for someone to hang where they feel comfortable. And Surely your little social experiment has revealed to you which forums are seeking interraction of the sort you offer.....
lw
Contrast is good.
It might help to have some folks around who aren't total assholes.
Well, if you read my initial posts in the thread, you will see that I was participating with respect and interest.
lw
Baloney EA.
Iv`e stuck to the thread,don` really know anything to go 'beyond it' with. You remind me of somone else,who kept wantimg to expand perameters,jus to keep himself inbounds. Perhaps i convey a personal dissapointment. you jus` plain bs`ed unwitting folks. Therfore...
Listion,this can go on,but nothing is going to change now. This is an open forum. you can percieve hostility as much as you want,and with myself concerned,well,the attitude of me about you is truly negative. I stated quite clearly that you decieved ,and deception is 'wrong'. You won`t get it,or won` choose to get it, at any rate. I won`t say this will be my last post in this thread,but i`d much rather drop it. I prefer no more wasted time by any cause created by you, EA. Nine/ tenths of that is me choosing to type anything,and I know that. But I`m also pissed enough not to let you got anything out of this, without it being openly known you screwed ppl. to get it.
BTW, if this was a true experiment,and not some personal one time wack- off,generally things like this have to be repeated many more times for some notion of validity. Of course, in a tighter framework than exibited here,and within Ethical constraints ,EA..
Yuck. Bye.
I'd call you the waaambulance but I think your already lost CJ.
I read english quite good but I have always have a problem with spelling even with my natural language although I manage to work that away, and currently leave by the pen. I got your point although I didnt expresse it as well as I should have.
It is reasonable to be clear about the acctual need since cactii id'ing takes some time.
Maybe EA could make a new thread with several species for your experiment but as a contest? Maybe you can give something away to the winner? That could be fun for people and give you the statistical material you want.
Guess my Areola!!
Man I could see Willow and Jrl all over this...Nips, cacti and guitars...Maybe even a calendar!!
Ya'know, that's what we need...a men of SP calendar...I'd crash some cash for an unlikely project like that....
UgLy!! YeaH! I've even got a photo of Somethings Ass for it somewhere!!
LOL Something says he has a photo oo you, lizzy, falling asleep mid-conversation. Guess that full moon puts a fella to sleep, eh?
lw
QuoteMaybe EA could make a new thread with several species for your experiment but as a contest? Maybe you can give something away to the winner? That could be fun for people and give you the statistical material you want.
I like this save it be for the competition aspect. I don't think such a test of consensus should entail the emphasis upon being correct which would hinder its effectiveness. I don't want it to be about being wrong or right so much as being an exploration into the connection between consensus and species identity based upon phenotype. This forum had people acting like Christians who can’t pray in school, getting all dramatic and overreacting, the other forums lacked this. It was not the most informative place for the consensus/phenotype connection but it was infomative nonetheless.
I do appreciate the diversity of the responses here, indicating an individualized approach to identity that is preferable than the mob mentality I found elsewhere. At another forum the people were much kinder, but also gave much more predicable and homogenous identifications. That does play into my not being willing to be chased off by immature responses and animosity which thus far has proved to be the rule (with occasional exceptions) for a certain bitter and somewhat repugnant character.
I'd rather endure the bitter animosity of said individual(s) than limit myself as that there are people here who are not so inclined to be disagreeable as a matter of principle.
Here is another SS01 X Juuls Giant, it came from the same seed batch that the plant in the first photograph did.
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Had I asked for an identification upon this as well I imagine that the response would be diverse. Perhaps some realize this thread was not about tricking anyone, but about the problems entailed in species identity. Those of you mature enough to learn that lesson might have a new appreciation for the taxonomic difficulties entailed in a study of the entheogenic Trichocereus complex, as well as the Knize conundrum.
Boy, thats a beaut! ......... doesn't look much like the juuls giant specimen i have though. But, then again, mines kinda growing up a little on the thin side cuz I don't get much light around here.
Very NICE specimen!!!
Peace
OBODAOUR
The thing is that these two plants are the same cross! The plant above and this one here are siblings.
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If I had not grown them from the same batch of seeds from a grower/breeder that I am familar with I would think they were different species. They are both SS01 X Juuls giant, and this leads me to ask certain questions about genetic expression. I have also noticed long and short spined versions of T pachanoi X SS02 and SS02 X T pachanoi, though overall the spines are the major differences and other traits are much more homogenous.
Someone has suggested that many seeds offered by Karel Knize are collection hybrids, that he sells them as the species that he collected the seeds from but the pollen donor is unknown. This is important to keep in mind for breeding, pure strains seem rare. Since a homozygous condition is important for breeding and study, and homozygous stock is elusive in trichocereus, it becomes a goal to both obtain and create true breeding lines. In some hybrids there is a uniform population of heterozygous genetic makeup, the F2 populations of such crosses could hold important clues about genetic expression in these cacti. A lot of work needs to be done to get a better working understanding of these plants and their taxonomy.
The bad thing about being an amatuer, its that Cactus ID looks to be a nearly impenetrable thicket of spines....the good thing is that you don't have to worry about these pissing contests you guys get into. :P
I don't think that is an amateur realization, cactus ID is always educated guess work and in Trichocereus it can be misleading
I think we are all amateurs though, an extensive collection or years of growing and identification experience do not in my opinion amount to expertise.
If someone else had posted the plant I did and asked for an ID, I would not have guessed it was a hybrid between a pachanoid and a macrovianoid.
This thread has been very educative. I believe i grow both the same species as you, EA-1306 .. as shown in the pics. The first one is a Peruvanoid or Peruvianus sp. My similar cacti grow one huge spine as they mature, it gets up to 2" or so.
I love the juls giants best coz they are so easy to handle.
Thanks so much for the link to trouts pictures , i spent a good time browsing them.