Spirit Plants - Discussion of sacred plants and other entheogens

I Know that there's some real good people on this forum
and I think that this is worth bringing up.

The subject has been mentioned on several other forums on the net (SAB, Lycaeum and others)
Regarding, the vender sale of pealed cacti and other processed cacti products
That are not only illegal in many nations under different assorted laws,
but also fueling the descruction of wild populations for short term $$$ gain. (K. trout)
If it continues, it'll be forcing the various drug agencies to act
and start enforcement of the laws of schedualed substances.


Live Cacti Cuttings and Seeds have legit uses
(thats why they're legal to currently buy and grow)
where as, peeled cacti are devoid of any such protection
they are being offered solely as a carrier of what is a highly illegal chemical
in a easy to use prepared form.

Cacti Peelings have been seized by US Customs (nook)
if this continues,
The assorted governments will not only ban such products
but extend enforcement of the laws to cover the entire genus of cacti.
In that case all the Trechocereus will be outlawed!
 
The illegalization of all such cacti species
That means no more gardens for anyone.
Please Think about this....

I've been advocating that such vendors be contacted
by as many people as possaible to let them know that they're
listing of peeled skins and other prepared products
is going to force you take your business elsewhere.

IF they lose money in a boycot  for as long as they're offering cacti skins
we'll be doing something to control a situation
that shouldn't have started in the first place.

There are quite a few vendors that have quickly saw the light and pulled
all such products off their pages
This does not apply to cacti seed and live cuttings

I'm asking that we start a discussion and start talking to such online vendors
and let them know the situation and to spread the word.

In short, what were talking about is:
 

• Peeled cacti are illegal as dried mushrooms in baggies
• The dried cacti have no legit uses
• The sale of peeled cacti and extracts is dangerous for the individual that orders and for the cacti themselves (removal of wild populations).
• Dried cacti sales will force the DEA (and other nations) to take action
• Such legal action will also include the illegalizing of the entire Trechocereus Genus.
• No more easy and safe cacti for anyone in the future
  (they're not like pot or fungus)

Thoughts?

Well,you know Flip( I`ve talked to you on another forum) what you say, does have merit. Yet,there is something in this whole approach that I have askance with,and perhaps why I havn`t been at a cirtain place much,though other mundane problems have arisen.

     You come here and already have a flag waving on a particular position.In my mind,it`s not that you are wrong,but for you it seems, the decision of right and wrong has already been determined,and therefore ppl. are to follow a cirtain course,ie,the only one that is right,and so on. I feel by the tone of your whole thread,if one doesn`t follow this course,than automatically one is branded as selfish and uncool and ...a cluebie? It was that very negativity that I have given a rest,as well as being so cirtain of a position that debate doesnt really matter,though,in fairness, You do ask for thoughts.

     Well heres one,nobody has been discussing this aspect of the matter here,it seems. There is more to that then may be on the surface. Perhaps there may be more than one way to deal w/ a problem ,then opening a crusade over it,or should I say,a can of worms?

What`s amusing to me, is generally all I will discuss is growing and care,and have been very conservative about some matters, on this and perhaps related. Yet,determining how it should be for others,or being so hypocritical as to not acknowledging something that has benefieted me in the past,is outside my personal scope. But here we are again,It`s illegal,ppl are making money off of it,the unwashed are acquiring it and will screw it up,etc. Wow.. Who says history isn`t circular.

     Well,I may agree w/ you..or rather,by the time all the noise and hoopla gets up to full crescendo,and things become'very well known',if they wern`t before,there jus` may be little choice...the tongue dippers will have heard of it(finally) and figuered out a new and novel way to complete their destiny. All I know is,a cirtain view has been in my vision for a long time,and there hasn`t been much conundrum about it. but as the noise esculates,so will the justifications,tied to the hip,so to speak.

Okay,but for me,the drum is staying home. And a sense of sadness over what on the surface seems true will prevail,cause we wern`t big enough to keep things in our own world,So we aquiesse to the notions of legality in a world where we turn around and chafe under it`s restrictions.

      However, mistreating anything will have consquences. And one would be appalled to lose ones little garden..again.

QuoteWell heres one,nobody has been discussing this aspect of the matter here,it seems. There is more to that then may be on the surface. Perhaps there may be more than one way to deal w/ a problem ,then opening a crusade over it,or should I say,a can of worms?

Agreed, and I'm sorry for my tone... if that offends.
I'm not trying to barge onto every forum I can to blabber away...
I believe that would only cause more problems and be actually destructive.
I spent some time thinking about this.

I know that others have gone about things their own way.
Mine is not the only way to do things.
I'm just feeling that there is a real chance to keep things safe(er).
on many levels... not to mention keeping people from breaking the law.
and this is my approach... perhaps I'm being a bit more of the "stick" vs the "carrot" (if thats even applicable)
but I've been reading some frightening things from the "tongue dippers" as you say...
and I can see it coming...
there's much that I haven't said
and I've been weighing my posts..
I just don't want any sort of harm done.
and that peeled cacti isn't required by anyone
but it carries unacceptable risks.

I just honestly believe that trying to do something
is much better than doing nothing and letting others
recklessness take charge.

...

In Sweden cactii isnt illegal but anything that show that you will eat it is illegal any processed form.

I think it is a serious concern with an undeniable risk.
I think it is not so much policing as advising to prevent policing.

Well spoken EA------------  senorsal

Most of the real concern and risk is due to the legal status of the substance in question, imo.

And this box isn't going to close back up just because a few peeps now fear the exponential repercussions of what they helped unleash.

The only real issue I see here is the potential of unethical harvesting caused by increased demand. Even then, unless folks are pulling the plants up by the roots, new growth should develop on most of the harvested plants.

The policing is here already, btw, and there in lies the real source of this problem, imo.

lw

Some Trichocereus experts have expressed a concern that pressures from the governments may promote eradication efforts if the use of the dried material increases. Some varieties of the plant are considered a nuisance already, and others have been singled out in the past as a drug source and sprayed along with coca.  

The legality is the problem for sure, but it seems we have a chance to hinder the process by not condoning the international shipment of the dried prepared material, despite the obvious fact that there are some ethical harvesting and cultivation efforts ongoing in the Andes.

Seed sources and cutting sources of superior material have been available for some time now, there seems to be no need for the importation of the dried material.

While the legality is the major problem, it is the aspect that we have the least amount of control over. We can therefore avoid attracting more attention by not ordering the prepared material.

For growers like myself who have an interest in these plants as objects of beauty and as allies, this is a nightmarish situation where non-illicit behavior such as collection, cultivation and private preservation stand to be criminalized. If it comes down to the decision of an officer saying "in my opinion they would have eaten them" then many people who never would have eaten the cacti become criminals in the eye of the law.
 
I do not want to let this happen without at least having said something. We all have our own choices to make. I have made my choice, and it is to share my concerns with the hope that they can help make a difference.

I guess I just have a tough time buying into this line of thought from the trichocereus experts out there. For example I seem to remember something about Shulgin working on a book covering the active properties of cactus. And I've read reports that the DEA is fond of working up drug cases from material gleaned from their signed copies of Shulgin's work. But is anyone approaching him and requesting that the info remain on the down-low? Or bothering MS Smith for letting the cat of the bag concerning the specific activity of different species of trichos? Or how about sweating Murple for going down to south america and romantisizing the notion of collecting active cactus from the source? Most of the experts with whom I am familiar are just as liable for any change in legal status of these plants as those guilty of importing dry cactus flesh, imo. At least following the above line of reasoning.

The law is the only real issue, imo.

lw

You have a good point.

I know Mike is a bit enraged over the possibility.
Here is what he had to say about it

QuoteI am saddened that many of the plants which I collect for their beauty may fall under future legislation. When that happens I will no longer share either my photos or my plants and many fellow collectors will be unhappy. And we will all know who is to blame...those who are looking for a high rather than a purpose.

 For some to be so careful and also express concern over this sale of dried material means something to me.

QuoteThe law is the only real issue, imo.

Agreed.

I've seen this debate many times over many allies.  Often the appeal to "moderate" behavior reminds me of Talkin' Birmingham Blues:  

"Don't push 'em!  Don't push 'em!
Else we'll get those extremists back in..."

...and of course the 'nonextremists' were using fire hoses and attack dogs on civil rights marchers.

I do respect both points of view, but the forces of repression will act against cognitive liberty whatever we or vendors do.  Discreet behavior and speech in a forum makes sense to protect a forum and it's constituents, but pushing the envelope of knowledge and access only affects the repressors' timing, not their intent.  Trading in dried cacti skins may move the species up the hit list, but it isn't what puts the species on that list.  

Space Law, Article XIII, para. iii:  

You cannot mollify an absolutist with what seems to you to be moderate behavior.

Do we not have a chance to make a difference by acting conscientiously?

IMO, it boils down to what you mean by "acting conscientiously."

A person can say things are being ruined by those who seek a high rather than a purpose:  another person might say that THE purpose of our existence is the exhiliration and joy that first person calls a high.  Does that mean the first party is correct to say the second has failed to act conscientiously?  The individual conscience is a sovereign state.

The beauty of cacti does not require a collector, but a collector who is passionate about the beauty of these life forms and truly scorns their acquisition for a "high" has nothing to worry about, even under the more draconian proposed laws, correct?  If that is merely legally protective window dressing, I just say, Good Luck.

Again using the civil rights movement as an example, could you not say that the struggle against racist Jim Crow segregation in the south was a failure to act conscientiously, since it provoked many lynchings and other assaults?  That position would have seemed moderate and reasonable for quite a few years--until the struggle was successful.

A vendor may feel that providing cacti skins is an act of defiant cognitive liberty:  we all work for money, and the more fortunate among us earn that money by doing something we love, enjoy, and believe in...could that not also be said of a vendor in this context?

If two people know something, it is not a secret:  that is a truth as old as our kind.  If you want to share a community that shares knowledge about plant allies, you have put yourself under the boot.  If you want to protect esoteric allies, don't go public.

I do sympathize with the distressed point of view, but I don't believe in blaming the victims of repression.    Cacti were "of interest" long before anyone sold dried skins.  Personally, I wouldn't order any, but that is not a matter of conscience to me.  I can greatly respect those for whom it is with integrity and consistency.

However this is not segregation, this is preservation. We are trying to protect against more "Jim crow" type laws being passed, not by telling people to stop segregating, but asking them not to flaunt it in an unnecessary way we know will cause our obnoxious big brother to seek to stop it.

Ordering dried cacti lacks the strength and symbolism of organized protest, it is more like a going to a KKK meeting in the middle of the dark woods and protesting racism by yourself. It is not some intelligent and organized protest of injustice.

The type of behavior now being encouraged is known as protective coloration. People can enjoy, but saying "screw it" and helping to create an environment where more good people go to jail for bad reasons just doesn't seem wise.

Cactus can be can enjoyed, but in the face of this type of oppression people should not seek to make martyrs of us all by pursing behavior that will result in the loss of more freedom.

If ordering dried cactus was akin to an organized intelligent protest there would be no problem.

That what is happening is unjust is not being questioned, however sometimes in order to survive oppression, people have to move underground lest their practices and culture be completely destroyed.  

It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.

Some people have worked very hard to be able to enjoy, and let others enjoy as well without fear of being singled out and persecuted, people ordering the dried cacti cannot appreciate the efforts of individuals who have gone to great lengths to make these cacti and information about them available in an intelligent and cautious manner.

Ordering dried cactus is not the only recourse for the procurement of quality cacti, however it is the most risky recourse and the most likely to have negative repercussions not for the individual, but for us all.

I think we can make a difference, and that we are not asking people to give things up, rather we are asking them to go about them in safer ways, due to the current fragility of the political state. It is unfortunate, however we can proceed with caution instead of flaunting it all in a way that will only further the loss of freedom.

QuoteThe beauty of cacti does not require a collector, but a collector who is passionate about the beauty of these life forms and truly scorns their acquisition for a "high" has nothing to worry about, even under the more draconian proposed laws, correct?

Incorrect.
Try telling that to the people that can't grow hemp for textiles.
Ignorance of the law - is no defense.
and since you're active on these boards many things can be surmised.

QuoteIt is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.

Here here!
The underground railroad ran for years. and it was those freed slaves
that escaped that proved most valuable in the fight against slavery.
Now if they tried to "escape" above ground yelling "FUCK YOU WHITEMAN"
they we're "punished" hobbled, castrated or simply lynched right there.

I want abolish slavery myself, but to do that we need to be smart(er).




everyone

I need your imput.

I've gotten a few replies from different vendors
and they make a valid point about the sales being legal
within their own nations and do not look likely to have
those laws change in the future (peru for example)

and would like to continue to serve their fellow citizens
(alright it's a bit pricey and listed in USD currencies on their website... but "whatever")

I have a certain vendor that has floated the idea of
restricting sales of peelings away from nations where it might cause problems. (namely the USA)
What does the larger community say about having peelings shipments
not being sent down to lets say AUS and the UK in addition to the USA?

I feel that the USA is the primary, not only because I live there,
they're also the very uptight about such things with heavy laws.
and they tend to bully other nations into complying with it's laws.

Do you guys and gals feel that your government isn't going to care
about peelings or make the distinction between those
and the live plants/seeds.

It seems that AUS outlawed kratom plants as well as the powder
that people were using for making tea.
and should be added to the "no ship to list" as well as the UK.

Thoughts please before I reply...

I see.

And then then i`m going to find the deepest hole I can find and hide my self for ever thinking I wanted such a thing in the first place,lest my gov`ment,like my former faith,find my thought a sin,and i could no longer fight the good fight.

     EA-1306, theres some parts of your arguement what i would accept,since they seem to be based on assessment of the practical world,and not  denial for those who could not proceed as you. After all,what one does w/ a whole cacti is between them and the camera on the wall,.. no..you arn`t saying that, something is very much disturbing me here. not your arguements ....

     I personally have nothing to say to any vendor of any thing of this nature...Nothing to say at all.

     (theres other subjects that do not involve these particular issues that I would have a completly different attitude about,irrevelant except for the determination )

quote ea: It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom..

I would have agreeds with that point if the "experts" had acted on this topic before they went out of their way to promote these plants for their sacramental properties, For example, if MS was really only interested in the visual, astetic properties of the cactus, why did he bother to publish a book on the various activity levels?

Personally, I've never bought or consumed dried cactus flesh.

I believe space has laid out my/our position so thoughtfully and cogently that I'm surprised this conversation is still proceeding.

This is just another attempt by the elitists to controll the unwashed masses, imo.

Read space's posts again, fellas.The rest is bullshit, imo.

lw

I think this is advice so people can protect themselves.

Read all of the posts and make your own decision.

We've been having the same conversation over the years concerning the precarious legality of various entheogens. All one need do is insert the current substance under consideration. The rest hasn't changed much.

But I do get a kick out of the idea posted above in regard to the plan to contact the various vendors down south in an effort to po-lice the situation.

What about an effort to get the bookstores to stop selling the experts books concerning the alkaloid content of various cactus? That might throttle down on the demand considerably.

quote EA: I think this is advice so people can protect themselves.

While the desire to help protect us is noble, it would appear you are going to have to stand in line, as those with more official sounding credentials have already taken that task upon themselves.

lw

SO I was just doing the dishes when I started wondering just who you folks are really attempting to help. And right about then, the big-time collectors came to mind, for they have the most to lose. (Maybe even the ones who collect for beauty but publish for activity.)

lw

Why the hostility?

There is no hierarchy in the OCC.

I have no desire to help protect you, I have a desire to help people protect themselves.

Your rhetoric has sounded more elitist than any in this thread.

I see.....

lw

QuoteQuote:
It is not hiding out of fear, it is camouflaging out of wisdom.  

Here here!
The underground railroad ran for years. and it was those freed slaves
that escaped that proved most valuable in the fight against slavery.
Now if they tried to "escape" above ground yelling "FUCK YOU WHITEMAN" they we're "punished" hobbled, castrated or simply lynched right there.

I hadn't planned to reengage on this thread, since I felt both points of view were pretty well laid out...though I would like to have a citation for that little old lady popped for poppies, since the Opium Act, if memory serves, specifically excluded ornamental uses; and hemp prohibition was pushed by the bureaucratic/police state holdovers of Prohibition in concert with the economic interests of big textile and paper manufacturers, not because of provocative potheads.

But the above quote re:  slavery is an interesting bit of revisionist history. If one posits that Underground Railroad escapes were a good thing, an accurate reading of those events supports my perspective better than yours.  

The operation of the Underground Railroad considerably intensified the suffering of the slaves left behind:  security was tightened, and scorched-earth group punishment was used to discourage the others.  I'm not sure how an escape could be thought of as being "camouflaged" in any way.   Gone is gone, and those left behind were whipped, raped, beaten and shackled as a consequence.  Escapees' families were broken up and sold to as many slaveholders as there were family members.  

It seems to me that my perspective supports similar resistance, while yours would have favored not rocking the boat in order to forestall the above.

I celebrate the escapes to freedom along the U.R.--but those escapees had no direct impact on the end of slavery.   Enormous economic and political forces led to a war that almost incidentally ended that abomination.  Those escapes were triumphs of the unquenchable individual will to liberty despite the heavy price the community paid.

An even more apt analogy is the response of Occupied France Nazis to attacks by the Resistance:  just line up nearby villagers and gun them down.  The "moderates"--who opposed overt resistance as futile and counterproductive--are now called collaborators.  They had it pretty good, compared to the masses, with nice possessions and pastimes and didn't want anyone else to provoke reprisals and spoil the party.  

The Underground Railroad was the in-your-face response to slavery; those who urged restraint favored a moral campaign to change the hearts and minds of the oppressors along with legislative efforts, both fruitless.  

The slave referred to in the quote above, shouting defiant insults in the face of certain death, is a straw man.  The choices were more realistically between hoping to survive the fields to maybe someday become a house slave or buy one's own freedom v. trying to escape despite the risks and consequences.

BTW, trust me on this:  by the time online forums are debating about keeping something under the radar, the radar screen is already lit up like a Christmas tree.  

If you stumble across an incredible entheogen that seems previously unknown, keep it offline, set up a classic cell structure with single contact cut-outs between cells, and do the true underground thang.

Any perceived hostility would be due to the perceived elitism of the topic at hand. And I do not deny harboring a certain amount of animosity toward those who come around pander their elitist desires.

And if giving a shit less about offending said cactus experts with my comments makes me an elitist, then count me in, brawh.  :shock:

ps: Where do I send me dues?

lw

LW- to each their own. You have stuck me often as a very considerate person, even at forbidden fruit many years ago.  Your harshness just seems odd to me.

Space,
While I may not agree with what you imply about the responsive measures that we have as options, I do agree with the last bit of advice.

People are doing that. The info that has been published is not without tact and consideration.

I don't think we should be martyrs, and I still think the analogies though very intelligent  are not apt. There does not seem to be a retaliation for underground information and procedures. In the case of the slave, slaves went missing, and thus the rest were punished. However as to the other aspects that are not available due to tact, both online and in publication, it is not as if there is some missing aspect that promotes retaliation.

I would offer my opinion and advice, I would never tell others what to do or what to sell. I would rather they make their own choices.

As to the radar, I think that it is not too late to continue with tact and not abandon all the careful consideration that has been maintained.

I think we still have options and that things are not too late for damage control. Perhaps I am wrong.

EA:  I think you are sincere and well intentioned.  I hope your efforts turn out well.  

Dead wrong about lw, tho...maybe the least elitist person I know.

Well, EA, you have the upper hand on me then. I have no idea who you are nor forbidden fruits. Well, FF does sound a little familiar.

I guess I just see you guys as an anonomous mouthpiece for a few who have chosen to assume high profiles on the topic at hand in the past but now have a desire to protect their own morphing best interests.

And yeah, I'll admit that rubs me wrong.

lw

It would rub me that wrong way too.

I was around at the FF forum for few years (joined in 98 ), and have been a member here (under a different name that this site would not let me re-register when it switched from.com to .org.)
I have been a member here since around late 99 or so as Anhalonium, though I must say I have never been treated well.

I can't figure out why either, I figured it was elitism.

I am me, unique and not a sock.
People can speak for themselves, that's what I do, and that’s all I can do.

I don't agree with all of what Flip has to say, but I am concerned about it.

Sorry to hear you don't feel you have ever been treated well at spf. And I mean that.

I'm still curious as to the FF. Was that one of hippie3's sites?. Not to be confused with forest floor?

Thanks for shedding some light on your id, too. I remember the nick.

lw

Soulsvr I think was the guy, I am not sure if that is Hippy3, I kind of doubt it. but maybe. Given some of the wiccan stuff, it might have had something to do with Nan, but I doubt that too.

I might be mistaken about you being there, but I was pretty sure, it was an entheobotany site. Not much myco hat I recall. It has a lot of the same folks that are here.
Here are their archives
http://entheogen.netfirms.com/main/main.html (http://entheogen.netfirms.com/main/main.html)
Maybe it will look familiar, it is gone now.

Naw, I'm guessing you're giving me credit for somebody else's kindness back in the day. I peeped that site and it was new to me. But then, I don't get out much.

Anyway, sorry for treating you shabbily, EA.

lw

EA, you are Anholonium?? Believe it or not,I`ve wondered about you. I `m not inclined to go into all the  'this or that',but one thing I did notice then, is that you addressed me, and that you truly knew more than a thing or two. Actually, I rather respected you because you did seem to know quite a bit, a but didn`t involve yourself in some other things... I quess we all have a private orientation on our perception of others. I simply thought you were a reserved individual who would still extend himself . I learned from you.

     I may not be ageeing  w/ you on issues here,but I`m glad to see you around, and do respect your knowledge of cacti.

Thanks.

I learned a lot from others.
Its reciprocity I guess.

I feel dumb now too, for even mentioning my objections and opinions. As I thought about your words in this thread this weekend, they helped me learn as well.

I am just a fool after all...  :roll:

The las` part, naw.

     I`m of course only speaking for meself,but there was a practical level,and a 'extreme' level this thread was running. To me.

     The practical,which you seemed to espouse, is something I can always hang w/,or at least would want to understand...

LOL I guess practicality isn't one of me strong suites, eh brotha-cj?.

EA: This is how we get to know each other, imo. I don't think it would be near as as interesting if'n we all agreed on everything.  

lw

EA:  Spiritplants is esp. rich in critical intelligence--not the criticizing, pick-it-apart, carping kind, but the sort that picks up a proposition and turns it round and round, looking for both seams of gold and the shine of fool's gold.  I've never had my mind changed so often as when I am hanging here.

Don't let my love of spirited debate mask the fact that we agree on much, including the wisdom of tact and discretion.  I meant what I said about respecting your perspective and integrity.

On the issue in this thread, my main dissent is on timing and blame (I am not ascribing those to your personal point of view):  it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle after the wishes are granted, and then blaming the genie for wanting to stay free.  

Both spiritual forces (the will to experience) and market forces (the will to supply) make it pretty unlikely that the cacti genie will go along quietly, and I wanted mostly to point out related disagreements are not moral issues or violations of spirit.  

Our world thirsts for transcendence, and our plant allies pose this dilemma over and over:  slaking that thirst breeds popularity, and popularity attracts repression.  We do need folks to do the quiet work of keeping traditions and species alive, but the ancient traditions were by and large not elitist.  The shaman was a member of an elite, but he/she was a gatekeeper to the society at large, not just a few.  And the right ally can crack your head open even if you were just looking for a good time.

The question only arises because of repressive forces; in a better world, we could merely disagree about species ID and soil pH :) ... about which I know very little!

Great points, spacey.

I sure missed you around here this last while and a half.

I think the topic of elitism, as mentioned by spacey is an interesting byproduct of this thread. Maybe the most interesting, imo. At least at this point.....

Looking back on what we've been told of practices related to entheogens, it would appear to me that the traditional role of shaman, at least in some cultures, was historically occupied by misfits, at least from the perspective of the mainstream culture, who were feared and maybe even shunned socially. ALso, I think there are prolly more examples of ancient cultures that relegated and guarded their spiritual practices through a strict ruling heirachy of priests and priestesses.

The feasts and orgies of Dionesian origin would appear to be one of the few examples I know of consumption of sacraments by the general population. The author, Joseph Campbell was said to have compared a dead show to the ancient rituals/festivities. I'd really be interested in learning more about that era and those practices.

lw

No Lw,I think you are very practical,from what I know.

I dont really see how the current strategy of banning certain plants can last. First of all it at least for me seems like a relationship exists between "strong" mind affecting plants and their usefullness in other situations.

A good for example would be CB in cancer treatment, both as have been noted the last 3 years as a cure for certain cancer forms and also for releaving certain negative effects of other treatments. Forbidding a plant that holds a cure are hard when the effect gets more well known even if legal alternatives exists.

Also and more important quite a lot of plants seems to be mind affecting. Cinnamon, persley, dill. You name it. A lot of ornament flowers in our gardens and a lot of spices are active.

I am quite sure that as we collect knowledge about active plants it will in the end show that most plants are active and some way or another. This posses a practical problem with banning plants just because they are used for mind affecting properties.

Quote from: "Green2Herman"I dont really see how the current strategy of banning certain plants can last. First of all it at least for me seems like a relationship exists between "strong" mind affecting plants and their usefullness in other situations.

A good for example would be CB in cancer treatment, both as have been noted the last 3 years as a cure for certain cancer forms and also for releaving certain negative effects of other treatments. Forbidding a plant that holds a cure are hard when the effect gets more well known even if legal alternatives exists.

Also and more important quite a lot of plants seems to be mind affecting. Cinnamon, persley, dill. You name it. A lot of ornament flowers in our gardens and a lot of spices are active.

I am quite sure that as we collect knowledge about active plants it will in the end show that most plants are active and some way or another. This posses a practical problem with banning plants just because they are used for mind affecting properties.

From this of course comes that in preserving sacred plants not only information about their spiritual properties can serve a function, but also to introduce them in other contexts as treatments, spices and ornaments. Common active and sacred plants as Morning Glory and Tree Datura will not be forbidden because they exists in plenty as ornament flowers. Poppy is also in a lot of countries not forbidden to grow in your garden since it already is a common ornament flower.

i believe the trichocereus genus to be in the same light, countless ornamentals and landscaping cacti exist everywhere, illegalisation would be near impossible w/ any practicality, aswell as id, how would an un-interested neighbour know the tricho genus from a cereus genus? i could invision a array of false acusations streaming to the authoities until ppl lose interest and it pretty much goes back to the way it is...

would anyone suggest there is a large illicit market for mescaline/cactus? not to say for personal use/growth, but as in sold commonly on the streets?

on the topic of whether to police or not to police sale of dried cactus, i think it is best for s all to use our best judgement wether or not to buy such products,
common sense is important, esp wen dealing with borderline products...

also, i can see that w/ policing, vendors who choose to take down the product will most likely be the conserving grower who wont be pilaging natural stocks, where as the seller that refuses, only wants the dollars from the sales, and in restricting availibility, it pushes the prices up and if the 'bad' vendors are left, nothing is achieved as the demand still exists...

our best judgements are the best thing we can go on for ourselves, because then you can be pure and sincere to your actions rather than 'trying' to do the ight thing by somebody else...

vb~

Quote from: "visionarybear"i believe the trichocereus genus to be in the same light, countless ornamentals and landscaping cacti exist everywhere, illegalisation would be near impossible w/ any practicality, aswell as id, how would an un-interested neighbour know the tricho genus from a cereus genus? i could invision a array of false acusations streaming to the authoities until ppl lose interest and it pretty much goes back to the way it is...

would anyone suggest there is a large illicit market for mescaline/cactus? not to say for personal use/growth, but as in sold commonly on the streets?

on the topic of whether to police or not to police sale of dried cactus, i think it is best for s all to use our best judgement wether or not to buy such products,
common sense is important, esp wen dealing with borderline products...

also, i can see that w/ policing, vendors who choose to take down the product will most likely be the conserving grower who wont be pilaging natural stocks, where as the seller that refuses, only wants the dollars from the sales, and in restricting availibility, it pushes the prices up and if the 'bad' vendors are left, nothing is achieved as the demand still exists...

our best judgements are the best thing we can go on for ourselves, because then you can be pure and sincere to your actions rather than 'trying' to do the ight thing by somebody else...

vb~

Here in Sweden it is to cold to cactii to be ornament outside and the more well known psychoactive cactii are not sold at the stores although not illegal. The police are trying to get room in the media for banning both peyote and San Pedro. I try to spread cactii as gift among a lot of people. San Pedro but also others not that well known. Small steps in a war that have lasted 1000 of years.

Although I dont really see the point of forbidding Peyote and San Pedro even if you buy the enemies arguments. We know a lot of cactii are psychedelic and even more in some way mind affecting. Personally I beliave that probably most cactii are psychedelic. Forbidding these two species will only move missuse to other species which could for the less knowledge users be less safe, while it will not affect spiritual use of San Pedro and Peyote in the way that the policy think (that is I beliave that spiritual users grow their own San Pedro not buying it over the border or in other ways that are easy to policy, but the ban would probably increase social cost for court cases and increase personal stress for a lot of people).

A point would maybe be that spread of cactii as living stock to people that will grow it long term for personal use are good because it makes a more total ban harder. Although any profit giving enthogen business probably adds something by it self since the war for enthogen plants do need money for affecting legislation.

The DEA's Microgram is out and it's full of interesting goodies
That make it past the filtering that edits out all the really interesting stuff.
The latest one is from (May 2005 -before this thread started).
That edition took two months to make it out of the editing process.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/foren ... index.html (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/bulletins_index.html)

Read about the cacti chips that the local lab in Illinois got....
As said before the main federal lab has gotten many other samples.

it's also worth noting that there are no arrests or other data
on the source of the (leftover?) 25 grams of chips.
They could have been obtained from a minor, their parents,
or someone that is "cooperative".  

I view this as the DEA's notification method to it's agents
to search and report such "chips". it's data collection to gauge the problem.
it's the same thing that preceded emergency scheduling of the early RC's GHB and others.

I'll leave the rest for this forum to discuss.

Good luck controlling the actions of others, man.

Talk amongst yourselves........

lw

Interesting thread :) Just in case it hasn't been re-hashed to death....

First off, I'd like to humbly submit that the arguments concerning elitism are something of a red herring. All the word means is that one feels that one is in some kind of privileged position, be it moral, intellectual, or otherwise. As such, I think that everyone here -- to a greater or lesser degree -- is something of an elitist. I mean, let me see a show of hands from those who don't believe that they know better than John Q. Man-on-the-street when it comes to entheogenic practice. Anyone?

Thought as much :)

I admit to being something of an elitist (or at least an arrogant snot), but, ultimately, that's OK. Being an elitist is just part of the human condition. What's more, it doesn't make you any more likely to be a controlling bastard. The elitist's opposite -- the insecure sod -- is just as likely to be one of those, if not more so; a true elitist usually feels sufficiently secure on their high horse to feel un-threatened by less enlightened versions of reality.

So lets drop the elitist arguments. In doing so, we can see the essential, almost humorous, irony. If we let the two camps be represented by their nominal icons (EA and LW), one can see that they actually fall on the same side of the fence! To wit:

Flip and EA are arguing that the only ethical coarse of action is to ascertain, to the best of one's ability, what the long-term implication of one's actions are. In doing so, we can see how our actions affect those around us, and in doing so can behave ethically.

In their case, the long term implications are: by buying dried cactus flesh, one is endangering the rights of those who grow cacti.

LW, on the other hand, is arguing that the only ethical corse of action is to ascertain, to the best of one's abilities, what the long-term implications of one's actions are. Sound familiar?

In LWs case the action is the call for voluntary restraint on the part of the entheognic community, and the long term implications are misplaced energy and a totally ineffectual plan of attack. Given the fact that this story has been repeated ad nauseum as long as there has been an entheogenic community and has never succeeded, what is the moral corse of action: to pretend that the strategy works and turn the wheel of samsara one more time, or to admit that it doesn't and look for a new strategy?

Both parties are claiming that the problem is that others are unwilling to accurately gage the implication of their ations. Both are claiming that this is the ethical course. Both are arguing for the same thing.

Logic is not always logical, but thanks.

 I like how you put the arguments.

I fear that formulaic deconstructions sometimes allow conflation of distinct concepts, but I have no desire to argue this, let alone with someone who can utilize logic to the degree you have demonstrated.

:)

I will add that at one point cannabis was so widespread that the thought of making it illegal seemed silly too. Never underestimate the governments ability to crack down, it is easier than might be thought.

Pretty fair evaluation, imo, amom.

The main difference as I see it would be that I don't feel its my bidness to tell anyone else how to conduct their private affairs.  Then top that position off with the futility inherent with (repeatedly) pissing in the wind.

Imo, it takes a special brand of elitism to deem oneself worthy of directing the actions of others. And much more of the same to assume that this session of pissing into the wind will be any different than the previous efforts.  

lw

Quote from: "EA-1306"I fear that formulaic deconstructions sometimes allow conflation of distinct concepts...

But that's a good thing!  :D

Gosh I hope I come across as giving advice, I don't want to tell people what to do.

And yeah it is a good thing (depending on your view):)

Unsolicitated advice on how to comport another's personal affairs is seldom appreciated, imo.  :shock:

lw

I fear that some people just might not be thinking about the sustainability of the availability of the cacti.

I find for myself it is better to be annoyed than ignorant of the possibilities that the advice and opinions of others might raise.

you know, it would all be different (imo) IF someone's actions
weren't able to affect me or those things I care about.
But the personal actions of others can have serious long ranging repercussions
In this context it's not a personal /private situation at all, but a public one.
As such, it's an actual duty as a citizen to alert
and try to prevent  unnecessary harm and injustice.

We've all seen what happens when the government takes action!
and nobody is arguing that they wont if this continues.
There is no reason to replay the disaster of the Research Chemical market and operation webtrypt.

I suggested a course of action that would seriously reduce the threat
and yet still leave a viable avenue open for people to legally grow cacti.

All it takes are a few bad apples...  lets please stop arguing and move on
to FIXING and PREVENTING the actions of a few from adversely affecting the many.

What do we have to do?!?
Does it take a actual lawsuit on behalf of all the different commercial
cacti growers, retailers and cacti associations
against the different vendors for potential loss of all future income
and destruction of current stock to make the point clear?

To all the vendors ... it's something that very well can be done.
especially since the DEA's microgram's detailing of dried cacti chips
and not once, ever mentioned live cacti cuttings.




and thanks Amomynous

Sustainability was never the issue. (Maybe read the thread title again, mang.  :)

lw

Your own actions are the only ones you control, flip. And you appear to have boiled the issue down to one set of actions now being responsible for the scheduling of a plant. I don't buy into that simplistic view, for starters.

And to be honest, I don't put much stock in those who place man's laws above God's. They can schedule to their hearts content as far as I'm concerned.

lw

It certainly seems to contribute to the criminalization and schedualing of things, whgoich in turn affects the sustainaiblity of the savaliability of the plants.It certainly seems that a failure to act conscientiously can contribute to the criminalization and scheduling of things, which in turn affects the sustainability  of their availability.

Lophophora is a good example of how certains kinds of attention can lead to eradication practices.

QuoteAnd to be honest, I don't put much stock in those who place man's laws above God's. They can schedule to their hearts content as far as I'm concerned.

I am not sure what this means, but I think you might consider that many types of plants have been endangered and wiped out by humanities laws and practices. Gods laws, as good as they are, aren't restoring lost species.

EA: We are even then. I understand little of the above post.

Man's laws are causing the eradication of the plants in question. However, my father and mother in heaven have told me that comsuming entheogenic plants is fine with them. So in the end, I could care less about what the laws of man deem right or wrong. At least when it comes to the freedom to chose one's course in life when others are not being harmed.

EA: You seem to be claiming some sort of expert status on the topic at hand.   Why else would you feel qualified to give the rest of the community advice on how to proceed?

lw

quote AE from another thread:  One of my favorite growers also chose to remain anonymous and remains too humble to take credit for contribution to both Trichocereus breeding and some photographs and information they have shared with Trout, and others.

....................

I now see where you are coming from now, EA. Anyone with a favorite cactus grower is bound to want to help them in their quest, whatever it may be.

I'm done with this thread, btw.

lw

I'm in LW's camp here: But speaking of man's crazy laws:

Flip "Does it take a actual lawsuit on behalf of all the different commercial
cacti growers, retailers and cacti associations against the different vendors for potential loss of all future income and destruction of current stock to make the point clear? "

I don't think you have a cause of action here.  You can't sue for potential loss of speculative future income.  That would be like the hemp industry suing jazz musicians for making "their" product illegal.  Except cactus isn't illegal yet.

LOL Right on, tstt.

I really don't grasp the moral high ground claimed by the injured elitists represented by flip and company. Trust me, the general public won't know the difference between an ornamental of the trich family and most other columnar cactus. Your markets will still be there if there is a scheduling of the alkoloid containing plants in question.

Me thinks thou doth protest way too much, dudes.  

Btw, I lied above when stating that I would no longer participate in this thread.  So sue me. I think you'll have a way better case against me than in the call for litigation above.

lw

Some of the arguements are good,but i love when PPl.,or a person ,is on a mission. The words get larger(much larger,and you better know percise meanings!), and the discussions more convoluted,w/barely concealed threat tactics in the background. 'Were going to do this. That is going to happen,wait an` see!'

     Sounds like we are swallowing our own tail.

     My own position is in the first half of this arguement... that it shouldn`t of occured. And yes,I find the reasoning akin to something that does not appeal to human nature, Lw`s observation ,I beleive.

     And now,someone else wants to be the law...

Good points, cj.

Now that the subject has been broached......

I guess the part whefolks starts getting scary to me is when members of this community? threaten to get the law involved in such a convuluted issue. Their faliure to see their own part in the situation at hand leaves me with the distinct impression of dealing with peeps who consider themselves above the general community. Big egos and reality don't often mix well, imo. As tstt pointed out above, these guys have no legal leg on which to stand. And that leaves me wondering to just what extent these folks are willing to use the law to get back at peeps who feel disinclined to join them on their mission of tilting against windmills.........

lw

LW, I am not flip, nor do I represent the same interests as he.

However I am a concerned person, who also keeps an open mind.
Your negativity doesn't really add a lot, and your reasoning doesn't seem to be more than self interest. I could care less what you think of my position, but I don't think you appreciate the possibilities, nor the veracity of those who do pose a legitimate threat.

BTW that favorite grower is a friend, you have friend don't you LW? Nothing wrong with that, despite your insinuations.

While I have concern as motivation, what is your agenda here LW, just to seem bright by arguing? What are you contributing or considering with your closed minded adversity? I could care less if you post on in this thread or not, I don't see your position  as well thought out or coming from experience. To cast those who have thought about this, and have experience as elitists with an agenda seems not only shallow, but based entirely in naivety.

I am curious what are you trying to prove, you don't like advice? Big deal, you don't have to follow it.
You don't care if the law changes and people are criminalized further? You don't understand how certain kinds of attention, such as that received by Lophophora can exacerbate the situations problems and lead to eradication?  

Perhaps you should try reasoning about your complaints of advice, instead of just whining how you don't like it and attacking those who give the advice instead of trying to provide an intelligent reason and explanation of why the advice is flawed.

Hypothetically speaking what if you are wrong about the inability of these species to be scheduled? You think it is not possible? Why because they are widespread? That’s silly they are not so hard to identify and having a bit of concern instead of closed minded cold heartedness is what I would expect from someone who claims to care about gods laws.

EA: I just tried reading your above post (twice)........

My motivation is cognitive liberty. That, I value above all else. And I think you will find there are not a lot of "followers" on this board.

I have no doubt the powers-who-be will eventually schedule pedro and allies.  But I refuse to let that concern me to the point of giving up my religion, which is based on a relationship with god through active sacrament.

This scheduling controversy isn't a black and white issue, EA. And its certainly not as simplistic as the author of this thread has insinuated. To profess certainty toward a course of action for an entire community is simplistic and egotistical, imo.

Rest assured I won't confuse your position with that of flip, EA. But I continue to see personal attacks directed toward me from you. I'd prefer you to argue a position rather than have to wade through the blather you've posted from time to time in this thread.

Btw, I've never bought or sold pedro chips. That's not the point.  

Adding another layer of management by those professing to know what's best for the community, is the issue at hand. Cognitive liberty.

I'm guessing your favorite pedro grower can take care of himself. At least if he's one of my favorite growers, too.

lw

Ok so I think we might call a truce on a certain level, and agree to disagree. We both have cognitive freedom in mind, but obviously think differently.

I think we agree about a lot actually.

LOL Yeah, we're getting close, EA. However cognitive liberty, to me, is individual freedom to choose. You seem to believe in the ability/desirability of a faction to choose for the individual.

And honestly, everything I said in the last post is nothing more than repeating what I have said earlier.

lw

To me cognitive freedom also relates to an ability to choose, which is greatly hindered when things become unavailable. As you said the situation is not so black and white.

 Sharing advice is not choosing the course of action for others, but your telling people they should not share advice certainly is.

EA: That is so much bullshit. Stick to the thread if you can, man.

Or at least show me your credentials as to why we should listen to you over any other assshole who comes around claiming to have the answers.

lw

"Sharing advice is not choosing the course of action for others, but your telling people they should not share advice certainly is."

I didn't see LW telling people they shouldn't share advice. Taken as a whole, what I see is  statements at first suggesting people refrain from purchasing such products, then suggesting vendors refrain from selling them, to threats of lawsuits (silly as they may be).  In other words - force.  That's policing - not advice. Flip, "lets please stop arguing and move on to FIXING and PREVENTING the actions of a few from adversely affecting the many."  This is not a war on drugs, it is a war on cognitive liberty.  I think that is the issue here - but this thread is hard to follow.

1 I am not flip and I did not tell people what to do.
2 LW did say that advice was unwelcome.
 and third

QuoteOr at least show me your credentials as to why we should listen to you over any other assshole who comes around claiming to have the answers.

Doesn't this mean you should show some credentials?

Look at your hypocrisy LW your posts as off topic as anyone here. Your as much of an asshole as anyone here too. You lack credentials as much as anyone here. And your posts in this thread  are as no less bullshit nor riddled with personal attacks than anyone else's.

QuoteI didn't see LW telling people they shouldn't share advice... this thread is hard to follow.

That latter part explains the former.

QuoteFirst off, I'd like to humbly submit that the arguments concerning elitism are something of a red herring. All the word means is that one feels that one is in some kind of privileged position, be it moral, intellectual, or otherwise. As such, I think that everyone here -- to a greater or lesser degree -- is something of an elitist. I mean, let me see a show of hands from those who don't believe that they know better than John Q. Man-on-the-street when it comes to entheogenic practice. Anyone?

Thought as much  

Mmmph...but... mmmmph

Okay, consider my vow of silence shattered, golden shards scattered on the floor...I think I have a god in this fight.

Amomynous, I admire your skill in pointing out that more is shared than contested in this thread, but your claim that the question of elitism is a red herring is a straw minnow (yes, I worked hard for that rhetorical turn, thank you).  

A common interest is shared; all parties want to do the right thing; that does not mean all parties want the same thing, or that all that is wanted is right.  

Elitism is not merely a matter of belief or feeling, any more than Communism or Capitalism are; rather, each is an amalgam of philosophy and action.  Elitism fully defined requires that the belief in superiority seek and/or gain the power to practice leadership or rule based on that superiority.

Yes, I believe I

Quoteknow better than John Q. Man-on-the-street when it comes to entheogenic practice.

That is an opinion on my part, one I can bolster with strong evidence.

But I do not seek to impose my superior knowledge and practices  on others.  

Here we have a situation where authors, vendors, celebrants, discussions, et alia have raised an obscure entheogen above the radar horizon; it took many people many years performing many actions to do that.  One (this one) is loathe to listen to participants in that complex process suddenly declaim, "Enough!  You folks there, drawing all the attention!  Cut it out!"  

The bale might like to blame the straw for its heightened odds of breaking the camel's back, but I've yet to hear the bales volunteering to hop off.

It is still rather obscure, though the thing that put it on the DEA map as far as  quantitative and qualitative data is the sale of the dried prepared material. there is a reason why there has not been a publication of specific potency of these cacti since 1978. And despite the discussion and books, there still has not been.

The single greatest threat thus far to the legal status of these plants is the increasing and unnecessary sale of dried prepared material that one can order with a credit card online.

EA-1306 and I are not the same person.
Nor, have I knowingly discussed with EA-1306
via PM/Em any other method regarding this thread subject.
So please lets put that to rest.
What I say as "flip" comes from "flip".
EA simply agrees with some of the things I've said.

<- This is my icon, (notice the cacti over the heart of the saint).



I've tried to make the points simple and clear (despite my wordiness and elaboration)
Yes there is a difference in the opinion here of  "just what is the right thing"
and that has to do with personal perspective or rather in some cases, personal deception.
There are those people in the world that actually enjoy being rebels for the childish sake of rebellion (//http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostgi.html)
to set themselves up a identity for themselves as valiant martyrs.
to the extent that their blinded to the real issues at hand.
and only think of themselves.

I've had the charge of Elitism leveled against me
Fine, Great, THANKS... I wouldn't be able to have that charge thrown at me and had it stick
 -if I was an idiot... or even a fool or completely wrong. (isn't that right?)

The good thing about the net is that it tends to negate social status, color creed, wealth and even peoples bad breath.
what's left is the points one makes.
If I was so very wrong and inept, this thread would not have gotten past the first page.
Your own personal attacks actually verify the validity of what you refuse to accept.
Otherwise your would refute the basic principles of what I said;
Dried cacti are going "to bring the hammer down" and everyone loses!
But ironically, you haven't and seem to be incapable of is offering is a better workable alterative !

All the posturing over "cognitive liberty" are in fact mute and faint at best.
(To tell the truth) It actually shows your desperation...
The federal government has dominion over what people can and can't do
as part of the social contract that empowers them.
Governments "imprison" schizophrenics  and other mentaly ill people
Go talk about cognitive liberty to them overdosed on medications.
in this post 1984 prozac nation
After that, go and  talk about "free personal choices" to people in jail.
and after that, go and talk to those people in jail for selling illegal
or even unscheduled drugs! (just try talking to pondman)

LW

QuoteHowever cognitive liberty, to me, is individual freedom to choose.

Yes, it sounds nice for people to read... and it makes them feel good.
But you and me live in a community (real world and net) and as such,
have a set of rules of society that you can either live by and be part of that said society
or suffer whatever "corrective forces" that social order has devised.
The problem is that I may also greatly suffer (in the real world)
because of someone else's irresponsible (real world) actions.

In short, your rights stop at the tip of my nose.
Go conduct yourself in another society -where you can't affect me.
it's YOUR CHOICE.

I'm very tired of having to also pay for the assorted asshat's and retard  fuckups.
Both myself and others are saying... Enough is Enough and drawing a line.
There are people who have spent decades caring for WONDERFUL CACTI
that do not want to toss them all into a chipper because of a few lazy people
who are claiming "it's my right to be a foolish asshole, Fuck You! because I'm lazy! and I say it's a right despite the law that says otherwise!".
But you know what?
Again, that all stops at the tip of my nose...
You do not have the right to affect me unjustly? because of your being a illegal asshole/fool

LW

QuoteI have no doubt the powers-who-be will eventually schedule pedro and allies. But I refuse to let that concern me to the point of giving up my religion, which is based on a relationship with god through active sacrament.

What's that?  HUH? That's' crazy Especially when EA-1306 has pointed out that in the DECADES that mescaline's been known in the trich's it's NEVER MADE IT INTO THE DEA's publications!
But after only after a few months dried cacti chips get into the DEA's Microgram: Microgram 1 (//http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/mg0404/mg0404.html), Microgram 2 (//http://www.dea.gov/programs/forensicsci/microgram/mg0505/mg0505.html)!
I find that lack of concern for other people and self delusion to be at the core of our position.
Despite claims to the contrary.
And TELL ME JUST HOW the lack of dried cacti chips sold via the net is going to affect
ANY recognized religion in the United States, AUS or UK?
Can't do that? Ok, I'll make it easier, how about any unrecognized religion?
Can't do that Either? huh?  Well, thats because you're full of shit!
But it all sounds really nice...  to those that you wish to set yourself up as a heroic rebel martyr of the people:lol:
It's all about popularity contest in the forums... isn't it? (//http://flickr.com/photos/50961571@N00/25873665/in/set-588843/)

QuoteTo profess certainty toward a course of action for an entire community is simplistic and egotistical, imo.

Do you have any theory or data that says that cacti chips will not lead to drug enforcement?
Seems to me that you already have accepted my basic points in your own words(above)
Therefore, your position and arguments are part of the problem and not the solution.
Suggest a working solution! or sit down and the Shut the F up!

QuoteI'd prefer you to argue a position rather than have to wade through the blather you've posted from time to time in this thread.

Yes, I can see you try to attack the person and their supporters vs  the points made.
Please address the validity of the points. Otherwise it's all  BS

QuoteAdding another layer of management by those professing to know what's best for the community, is the issue at hand.

it certainly seem that your way has been successful...  hasn't it?
isn't it a simple matter of taking the information of the how too's
and selfishly ignore the responsibilities that are also inherent?
That is the sole reason why we have illegality of certain molecules and substances
in the first place.
Thank you very much for continuing to be part of the problem.

It's because of the selfishness and irresponsible abuses of others
that those who have put in the time and effort - will also suffer.
The simple STUPIDITY of thumbing your nose at authority in power that
has also made it's way into thumbing your nose at people that actually
have something to lose!
and shouldn't even have to suffer in the first place!

People who order dried cacti chips do not operate in a vacuum!
Otherwise, this wouldn't be a issue...
HOWEVER, IF you wanted to compensate EVERYONE for their losses due
to your illegal and irresponsible actions... well thats fine... problem solved.
But I seriously doubt that you have the assets to do that.
instead you rather force others to bear your burdens!

I eagerly await your reply.

quote space:  The bale might like to blame the straw for its heightened odds of breaking the camel's back, but I've yet to hear the bales volunteering to hop off.

flip: Fuck you and the rest of the deluded cognoscente you rode in on.

lw

To tell you how dried cactus chips are used in a bonafide religious cermony would put some innocent and deeply commited spiritual peole at great risk - so I will not.

But heres a suggestion - why don't we all just order as many dried cactus chips as we can. Use them respectfully and only in religious context.  When we get busted we force the issue to court.  Maybe we'll win, maybe lose - but who cares the only people who would loose out in the long run are the stupid cactus collectors?  Small sacrific for the greater good potential enlightenment of the many I'd say.  :roll:

LOL Sounds like a plan, tstt.

However, I don't see all the cactus collectors losing out. I know plenty of collectors who have never felt the false sense of security that comes with tight rope walking over the law. Those folks will probable change their course of action very little.

I do find it interesting that some people behind this thread have profited from the sale of cactus solely due to mescaline content. And others have profited by providing detailed information in book form concerning the alkaloidal content of said plants. Some have done both.

As most here have prolly never bought or sold pedro chips, nor profited from the sale of mescaline containing plants, I'm afraid you elitists are barking up the wrong tree.

Fucking hypocrites......

lw

Hummmmm.

So what your saying is that you are going to feed the cycle
by adding fuel and pushing harder for actual illegality?

Say...do those chips come in Cool Ranch?

LW you are no better or well informed than any here, and no less of a hypocrite.

As for this

QuoteI do find it interesting that some people behind this thread have profited from the sale of cactus solely due to mescaline content. And others have profited by providing detailed information in book form concerning the alkaloidal content of said plants. Some have done both.

Who do you think is behind this thread?  You don't know what you are talking about.

QuoteTo tell you how dried cactus chips are used in a bonafide religious cermony would put some innocent and deeply commited spiritual peole at great risk - so I will not.

Right, I so believe this, mentioning that they are used puts people in danger? This is ridiculous. There are a few San Pedro using religious groups in the USA and they grow their own plants, that are stronger than any dried material you can buy. You have no clue here, sharing how they are used puts nobody in danger, you would have to mention personal information to do so.  Nice bluff, but if it looks like BS and smells like BS, then it is probably BS.

Oh.  

What about White Cheddar?

EA "Right, I so believe this..."

Yea, you believe what you want to believe that is for sure.

Oh, we have captured LW and placed him in a psychedelic bubble 9758 feet high.  He has activated his personal ignore switch in the control panel.  Please talk amonst yourselves.

I`m thinking white cheddar.

      This was a circus coming in,and now it hopfully soon,it will fold it`s tents and leave,muddy ground / animal dung /an` used condoms behind. Well personally,  the construct i never respected anyway,so no loss. Well yes, personal opinion...

     Now it`s Lw simply facing off two individuals in a three sided matchup., more or less. Two camps..three camps,they all have been defined..right?  To a 'T',I would think. So...what now?

     How much more do we have to hear ,Flip?This is like a washing machine stuck in 'spin'. You have presented your cause...long ago. It`s gone from something fresh,if disliked by some parties( well..me),to beaten to death,and that a long 72 hours ago in a hot sun . As for the rest,well for me anyways it`s devolving to loyalties, and personally speaking, ,I saw it as Lw does anyways,on the generalities. Course,thats jus me. An mabe some see it otherwise,and it goes on and on and on....

     Any reason to drag it out futher?

     IMO,this thread was a negative in the first place,but lets say not. Everything worthwhile has been presented. If attacking a particular personality now becomes it`s only goal,i simply will stand up for a friend. So will others.

     I think this thread has gone bye bye.,and is in danger of going overboard.

I appreciate your post CJ, but are you saying that if LW attacks someone then you will just gang up with him and attack that person too?

I don't think any person here is better than any other.

Mentioning sacramental ceremonial use does not threaten individuals or organizations if you don't include personal or specific information that can threaten them.

CJ, I hear what you're saying as well.

I think that it's all boiled down to
opposing points are done and long gone.
If they even had any, other than a kneejerk "don't tell me what to do..."

It's moved from being a statement and advocacy,
To a discussion,
Down into some people belching out hollow positions and personal attacks

What's Left?
Ganging up against the "other side" and hard feelings "just because...xyz"?

I didn't come here for that.
and I shouldn't have gotten sucked into it.

Both my own, and others energy on this issue is better spent elsewhere
Besides, the only real reason to continue would be IF they're
involved in the enthno-botanicals trade and profited from sold chips.
and we're not allowed to go there... even if they were.

Thank you to everyone who's read this thread from start to finish.
and thank you EA, Amomynous and others for both your positive insights and support over this concern.

Sincerely,
flip.

OK, then.  White Cheddar it is.

Why do you make a call for peace
and then turn around and antagonize me?

Please re read my post again.
This thread was positive, about the saving,
retaining and conservation of certain valuable plants
Not about careless destruction or ego's.

Why speak of ending this and then throw stones?

Quote from: "flip"Why do you make a call for peace
and then turn around and antagonize me?

Please re read my post again.
This thread was positive, about the saving,
retaining and conservation of certain valuable plants
Not about careless destruction or ego's.

Why speak of ending this and then throw stones?

Are you referring to my mild-mannered, good-humored, non sequitur-ish attempts to lighten up the tone of this thread?

Those were't meant as "stones" or provocations, flip:  sorry if they struck you that way.

Peace is good.  Let's hold onto some.

Agreed.

I will admit that I'm very serious about this issue
and that it was taken the wrong way then...
Perhaps using a " :D " would have helped.


:)

OK!

 :D

No ill will here, flip.  

For what its worth, rest assured I have not--and would not on a bet--order cacti chips.  I prefer living relationships with my allies, and I think that goes for 99% of the folks around here.

It seems some are just arguing because they can, hell I think they ought to if they want too. I am pretty sure (as it was pointed out) that we all share similar interests, but have different perspectives.

I thought the cactus chips flavors were harmless silliness.

Is this thrad showing signs of dying?
I hope so, because I was getting ready to post a suggestion that it be closed since no new information or persuasion was being offered.

...

Ditto.