Shamans Golden Strain:? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Anyone ever heard of this strain I just stumbled on, on ebay?
Looks like a cross between sunny lettuce and SD!
Hope this isn't another chicken diaper sketch.
(//http://img250.echo.cx/img250/6999/db1b0th.jpg)
This auction is for a Shamans Golden Strain Salvia Divinorum. This strain was developed right here at Shamans Ridge.
It is a much hardier plant than the other strains, Growing well down into the 40's and yet holds up well in our oklahoma 100' summers.
Not as desperate for high humidity and holds up just as well indoors.
The plants grow with a bushier habit throwing out more leaves per sq inch as well.
This has become a local favorite and we now have some extra that we will be listing here on ebay
//http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20529&item=3982115776&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
Youve got to quite hanging out at ebay so much.
I thinik you could be right there T. LOL
I occaisionally check them out for other herbs and just ran a search for our friend here & came accross that thing.
It looks nice.
It looks like basil.
Kinda looks like patchouli, too. But my patchouli plant looks and acts a lot like sally, so go figure.
lw
Quote from: TooStonedToTypeIt looks like basil.
No the leaves do not look like Basil. Looks like small Salvia leaves to me.
Here's some basil leaves. There's so many variations, who could tell?
(//http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/pictures/ocim_15.jpg)
Photo from Sagewisdom.org
(//http://sagewisdom.org/sdcuttiing.jpg)
Small Salvia Divinorum cutting.
It does look a little like the andromeda plant at sagewisdom. My bet is this is a scam. He say's it's a "local favorite" How come no one has heard of it?
In case no one has heard - salvia divinorum is the real deal. We found it! No need to go looking for a better strain, more potent variety, etc.
Looks to me like SD pruned to be bushy--but did anybody ask the seller? E-mail 'em a link to this thread and see what they have to say.
Im sort of basil collecter. It is not basil.
I'd like to give the guy the benefit of growing a new strain, but we all know how that is to do.......perhaps some of those chicken diaper seeds sprouted finally?
Plant in question looks kinda sickly too. ( probably just bad lighting..leaves look ok)..be nice to see the stem, that would help ID it a bit more
....woud be nice to have a heat tolerant variety, but Hoffman-Wasson grows well everwhere temps are in 50's to at least (90).....but I think it has to be in the ground if air temps get colder than that...
Edit:
(changed minimum temp from 40 to 50)
I'm guessing you will lose any sally plants you have, in the ground or not, when the temps dip below the lower 40's. Otherwise, it would be a different plant, no?
lw
We get some good frosts here, and from Nov. through April evening temperatures drop to 40 degrees F, especially following a storm system..... doesn't seem to bother those in the ground, but I wouldn't take a chance with plants in pots. Ground temperatures don't vary much and tend to stay around 50 here, but pots have no heat resevoir, and can get too cold.
Plants in fall have usually hardened off and stopped growing, so their tips aren't damaged, at least by light frosts and freezes. A deep freeze below 25 degrees, which lasts 6 hours or more, would definately kill off the above ground part of the plant.
This is of course is my experience only, and I wouldn't recommend any one planting outside unless they really understand their own local enviornment.
I figured, what the heck--I messaged the seller at eBay and invited 'em to check our discussion and comment, directly or via me if they don't want to register. Hope they'll stop by.
Question for Jupe and a comment for space:: Hey Jupe, I can understand your basic survival parametrs for the temp range given, but I need your opinion about somethin so here goes::: I live in northern FL in a region that on a few strange occasion might drop down to even 18-20 for maybe an hour/ halfhour at a time. within those brief episodes (kinda rare really) the quick rise to 35-40 happens with a topping out of 45-55 on the coldest days of the year.. would I bee successful if I covered my darlings and layered a bark chip bed all around them to insulate??? Hey space kudos on taking the initiative to directly contacting the guy and pointing him to a place where he can see for himself the interest/general knowledge/and concerns and questions we here might raise. I think that's an excellent idea.. I have a sneaking suspicion that some vendors are under the impression that most with entheo interests are retarded and that they()the vendor) alone really know what;s going on... senorsal
Sensor:
If you could cover your plants with a bottle of hot water underneath the cover they may make it though.
I am thinking like a 1 gallon water bottle filled with the hottest water out of the tap and a clear painter's plastic drop cloth.
Another option instead of the water might be a light bulb (incandescent, not fluoroscent) under the cover.
Have no heat have no electricity senorsal
geez winder....stole the words outa my mouth....!!!good job....
Senor Salvia:
the lightbulb tent is the quaranteed way, 100 watt bulb in an enclosed space gets pretty warm, so you have to experiment a bit. but if you can't get power outside.....other options are as Winder mentioned.
wind is also a help in these situations,(think of the fans in the Fla.and Ca. orange groves for mixing the air) The coldest areas are at ground level during short frosts and freezes. We have the same conditions here, even moving plants 6 ft high can add enough warmth to save them.
oops just saw your post....sounds like an outside patch allright....OK ..Campstove? haha..sleep next to them under tent? Seriously, mulch should help a bit, its really how long the freeze lasts....and they are supposed to be able to freeze at the top but warmer roots will make it.. I dug up my squashed plants and was pretty surprised by how many shoots were "formulating their intent" about 1 foot below ground level.
Can you get hot water bottles to the place?
Surely, there is some place you have access to with hot water.
The tricky part may be to get the water bottles to the outdoor plants while it is still hot. An ice-chest and towels might help keep the water warm if you have a commute.
Or are you planting an outdoor grove? - Sensor Salvia Seed, not Johnny Appleseed.
If so, I commend your efforts, as this is one excellent way to deal with legislative threats - ditch sage.
QuoteHello I have just taken a look at the site it looks interesting. I went ahead and registered and as soon has some administrator approves me I will be happy to respond to the questions
Thanks for letting me know about the site
Shamans Ridge
Hey, how about that? Sometimes communication just flat out works.
Hello
First I would like to say thanks to Space for inviting me to join this forum. It looks very interesting. I hope to be able to answer any questions you might have about our nursery and maybe even help with some of the other questions.
Such as senorsalvia’s temporary cold issue. If you have been made aware or suspect that there is going to be such a temperature drop you can take and build a tent over the plants the easiest way is to take a tomato cage and place it around the plant or some bamboo then a old blanket or piece of canvas can be used. Just place some old wood pieces or rocks around the edge to hold it secure. Do NOT USE PLASTIC it will conduct the cold very quickly to the plant where ever it touches it and will allow condensation to cool the environment inside as well. In addition it will heat up very quickly and in a strong sun can kill your plant just as fast as the cold. The tent should hold in more than enough heat for the short time you have described but a old 2 liter bottle of warm water will take it through a longer period if needed.
Now on to the questions I remember about the Shamans Golden strain.
Shamans Golden is a strain developed here at Shamans Ridge Nursery to take care of a number of desires by local Salvia enthusiasts.
The primary traits we were looking for are
1. Heat resistance to stand up to our high temp summers here in eastern Oklahoma
2. Resistance to pests
3. Cold resistance
4. Decreased humidity dependence
This breed was a very long time coming it took us six years to get it where we wanted but most that have worked with it believe it was worth the wait.
I am not familiar with the chicken diaper sketch? So I am really uncertain how to respond to that one. Could someone enlighten me on that.
Hmmm we grow both patchouli and a number of varieties of basil and I myself don’t think it looks anything like either but viewpoints are always a matter of perspective :D
I am not familiar with the andromeda plant so cant really comment. The reason not a lot of people have heard about it is because there are not a lot of people with access to it we sold out early last year and only sold a few of them on eBay. And of those bought on ebay 4 were picked up by repeat buyers who were very satisfied with them, And wanted to share them with their friends.
The idea of a scam is a sensible one of course there are a lot of people selling various things with lots of different claims its always a good idea to seek out more information and buy from credible honest sellers with a history of good customer service. I will be happy to answer
any other questions and provide additional pictures. We grow quite a variety of ethno botanicals many of which we may not be selling but can answer questions about
well enough for now I think hopefully I have answered the questions if I missed one please let me know
Thanks
Vanessa
Shamans Ridge
"Shamans Ridge said......
Now on to the questions I remember about the Shamans Golden strain.
Shamans Golden is a strain developed here at Shamans Ridge Nursery "
Hey Shamansridge, thanx for responding and joining. We're pretty sceptical here about people claiming new varieties and strains.....just so you understand that. Many here, myself included, have been growing Salvia for years.
My only questions would be...........
1. How did you "develop" your strain?
2. What variety of salvia did you "develop" it from?
The BIG question is, do the leaves contain Salvorin A?
And if so, has this been verified with testing of the leaves?
Hello Jupe
1. How did you "develop" your strain?
That’s a fair question requiring a rather long answer but to put it as briefly as I can we took the
seed from the best plants in our breeding section. Repeatedly over what turned into a long period
we grew the plants to maturity over and over again looking for the attributes we were seeking.
Those plants that had characteristics we were looking for were moved into the breeder section to
Ensure pollination of only the chosen breeders. The seeds from salvia d are extremely inefficient
In that they have such a poor germination rate usually less than 1/3 would produce seedlings and
Of those roughly ¼ would fail to survive into mature plants then it was a matter of testing for
salvinorin A content which varied considerably from very poor to mediocre to a few with strong
content. So after almost 6 years of rejecting all but a few plants from each set maintaining clones of
each to produce many clones to try to improve pollination results we ended up with the strain we
now refer to as Shamans Golden due to its coloring and the fact that it cost us quite a bit in actual money
to get to it.(testing fees, greenhouse maintenance and other not considerable costs which we hadn’t thought
about in the beginning.) The point of all this was to be completely honest a experiment by my husband (the Shaman)
to see if he could. We have at any one time a variety of plants, which he is attempting to breed for similar reasons.
Simply put its his greatest joy working with these plants seeing just how far he can push things and to see what
He can come up with. We have a strain which is practically devoid of salvinorin but looks pretty that he has
maintained for some time. I hope this answers that question and now for the next
2. What variety of salvia did you "develop" it from?
The plant was developed from a Blosser clone and a number of plant samples brought back from Mexico
When he went down to look at the Las Ruinas cave system. (Its pretty much impossible to take him anywhere
Without coming home with some plant samples)
I hope this answers those questions for you.
Thanks
Vanessa
Shamans Ridge Nursery
The Vendor certainly sounds to have good intentions in providing all the information she did. Ok, who is going to be the first to try one?
Jupe sounds like a good candidate to me. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks for joining us, V. and for taking the time to answer questions.
Many of here are devoted to cultivating sacred plants, and I am sure everyone want to know one thing in particular: how did you manage to develop a new strain? Salvia D. is notoriously difficult to get to seed--we're all wondering how you got enough variability to select for those traits. Alternatively, I suppose one could look for wild stands in environments that matched the requirements you sought.
I hope you'll stick around for more than this thread. When we're not spiritual, we're sometimes smart; when we're not smart, we're sometimes amusing; and when we aren't amusing, we're usually sorry later :)
This sounds like a complete line of BS. The lady admits the plant is practically devoid of salvinorin a. I would suspect it is completely devoid of salvinorin a as this is not a salvia divinorum plant. To get plants to seed once is extremely rare. To claim they have a breeding program is unbelievable.
Oh, and if someone is breeding what they consider to be desirable traits of this plant and are breeding out what I consider the most desirable trait of this plant, the salvinorin a, and are calling themselves a shaman, I would really question their intentions.
Are you sure there are not chicken diapers for sale on that ridge?
Who tested the salvinorin content? Where are the results?
Guess I missed the above posts when I posted my reply above...still reacquiring the knack of keeping up.
Seems a little harsh, TSTT, when the lady responded to an invite to Q&A about the strain, rather than aggressively spamming the forum for sales.
If indeed the strain is salvinorin-deficient, she doesn't seem to be trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes about it; and it doesn't sound like she means to suggest that low levels of salvinoirin were a goal.
It wasn't clear to me that the strain essentially devoid of salvinorin was the strain dubbed Golden, since she referred to several: clarification would be good.
I'm not interested in a strain of Sally devoid of salvinorin either, but I would very much like to hear more about their methods and results before making any judgments. If it is total BS, I'm glad we have a chance to examine it here and see through it.
I'm not endorsing anything: I never heard of the strain or the vendor before the original post here. But it seems like a little more conversation wouldn't hurt...
Naw, ttst, you are reading the first part wrong, imo. Thet seem to be breeding more than one strain of sally.
But I also get a little curious when a sally breeding program from seed is mentioned as an aside. Imo, that would be the big news out of OK.......
lw
thanx Vanessa for the reply....The pollination aspect is what many of us here are sceptical of. As far as I have heard, no one has ever gotten any seeds from their plants, let alone getting them to turn into plants. Any tips? do you have those special Hummingbirds in Ok.?
It sounds like you also have another strain which has no salvinorin, in addition to the golden strain?
Bongo: I can't get on Ebay or Yahoo now for about two weeks......virus check comes up clean, system ok.......got no clue.....
ps I always wanted to name a strain "Golden Belle" just 'cause I liked the sound.
How many generations of seeds to plants to seeds could have occurred by now?
Suppose someone has been working with salvia for 6 years and got seeds every 2 years.
3 generations.
That is not too many generations for optimizing a strain.
I am skeptical also.
I'm curious as to
a) whether Daniel Siebert was made aware of the fact there was a new strain available--for sure, if I found what I suspected was a new strain, he'd be one of the FIRST people I would contact about the matter.
b) Were the plant samples brought back from Mexico actually Salvia strains? If so, what kind? I'm only aware of 7 strains that have been brought back and propagated. The rest are seed-raised clones. If the Salvia strains were the same as what could be found domestically, why travel to Mexico to gather them? If they were different than what we have here, then why weren't some of these plants made available to Mr Siebert? With all due respect, Shaman's Ridge could have had a strain named after it without trying to spend 6 years cloning plants. :lol:
I'm not real clear on how a plant can be 'devoid' of salvinorin. Anyone wanna take a swing at this? I'm not a scientist, so please keep it simple. :wink:
How to be devoid of salvinorin?
The same way as others are enriched, I guess.
Cultivate for characteristics desired.
Salvinorin is primarily located in the trichomes on the leaves' undersides.
Fewer trichomes or less enriched trichomes, and I'd expect then less salvinorin-A.
As to the chemistry-related how and why of making a specific molecules such as Salvinorin-A, I have no clue.
To me it is rather amazing that only salvinorin-A can be obtained by some relatively simple means using three solvents, acetone, naphtha, and water. I mean, I would expect there to be some other compounds there that might behave similarily with respect to these solvents, but nope, there are not. Strange.
The seeds from salvia d are extremely inefficient
In that they have such a poor germination rate usually less than 1/3 would produce seedlings and
Of those roughly ¼ would fail to survive into mature plants then it was a matter of testing for
salvinorin A content which varied considerably from very poor to mediocre to a few with strong
content. So after almost 6 years of rejecting all but a few plants from each set maintaining clones of
each to produce many clones to try to improve pollination results we ended up with the strain we
now refer to as Shamans Golden due to its coloring and the fact that it cost us quite a bit in actual money
to get to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I think TSTT read that wrong.
At least I take it to mean they found strains had developed with little Salvorin A content whcih were excluded from the breeding program.
I could have read that wrong. This is more of the statement I was thinking of when I wrote that. Still though, looks like she's talking about a differnt plant the the "golden" strain.
"Simply put its his greatest joy working with these plants seeing just how far he can push things and to see what
He can come up with. We have a strain which is practically devoid of salvinorin but looks pretty that he has
maintained for some time. "
I hope we didn't scare vanessa away and she comes back here and answers some of these questions. So far it still doesn't sound resonable. As far as I know, the most success with pollination has occured in Hawaii about 5 years ago with Daniel Siebert's help. Seeds were limited and few germinated. They carefully hand pollinate and know what they are doing. They haven't had similar results.
But I agree with TSTT that his points need to be addressed along with winder's observations and others.
If there is a dependable method to set SD seed, that alone would be tremendous. And if you had that, you could (even in just a few generations via sheer numbers) generate enough variability to pick out a single plant with desired traits and then maintain a clone population: I don't know if it would be technically accurate to call that a strain or not.
Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts...
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"I could have read that wrong. This is more of the statement I was thinking of when I wrote that. Still though, looks like she's talking about a differnt plant the the "golden" strain.
"Simply put its his greatest joy working with these plants seeing just how far he can push things and to see what
He can come up with. We have a strain which is practically devoid of salvinorin but looks pretty that he has
maintained for some time. "
I hope we didn't scare vanessa away and she comes back here and answers some of these questions. So far it still doesn't sound resonable. As far as I know, the most success with pollination has occured in Hawaii about 5 years ago with Daniel Siebert's help. Seeds were limited and few germinated. They carefully hand pollinate and know what they are doing. They haven't had similar results.
Total agreement here: replicability is all.
Vanessa PM'ed me while the board was down as she couldn't reply. Her husband said he'll type up a propagation guide or something. Hopefully, she'll see this and know the board is working again.
I think a little skepticism is warranted: hopefully Vanessa and the Shaman do not take it personally! I've seen quite a few outrageous claims and non Salvia d. plants sold as Salvia d. and as they say, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. So.. please take the skepticism as systemic and not personal :)
It occurs to me: a picture is worth a thousand words. I would love to see some pictures of your operation.
So, TSTT
What is the deal with the PM?
quote ttst: Vanessa PM'ed me while the board was down as she couldn't reply. Her husband said he'll type up a propagation guide or something.
I'm guessing it could take a little time to write up the bona fide successful sally propagation guide, bro. :shock:
lw
Yea, in the pm a few days ago, she said the guide would be lengthy and would take a while. Said she was not expecting to be criticized and was somewhat offended. But she would carry on despite the rough treatment here as some were still asking questions rather that criticizing. I think I said something like she should understand the skepticism as others have tried to sell fake and/or incorrectly identified plants before. She said something about they didn't see Siebert as some sort of god that they needed to consult with and something about not wanting to attract law enforcement attention to their nursery (despite the fact they are not growing anything illegal). I said something about I don't think anyone here believes Siebert is a god one must consult with all new salvia findings...its just we think it's a bit strange the claim there is such a "breeding" program going on and no one knows about it. I figure if it is legit, she should be able to take some questions. I'm still skeptical.
---------------
... I will type up his propagation instructions as soon as he gets them to me. Oh yeah the magic humming bird thing. I did ask about that and got a answer I dint quite understand, maybe you will. “that idiot Mazatec hook billed hummingbird is a parasite not a pollinator living off the excess nectar produced by unstressed Salvia’s. the pollinator is moths which are attracted by stressed plants†well that’s his reply cant say it means a lot to me but I know that there are moths in the breeder house and he doesn’t seem interested in killing them.
[quOh yeah the magic humming bird thing. I did ask about that and got a answer I dint quite understand, maybe you will. “that idiot Mazatec hook billed hummingbird is a parasite not a pollinator living off the excess nectar produced by unstressed Salvia’s. the pollinator is moths which are attracted by stressed plants†well that’s his reply cant say it means a lot to me but I know that there are moths in the breeder house and he doesn’t seem interested in killing them.[/quote]
WOW TSST...the mystery deepens......I'm the one that mentioned Hummingbirds, sounds like somebodies got some bird issues "idiot parasite" hmmmm...Jeez all pollinators are accidental anyway......(moths also means you have worms somewhere else, eating dinner!!!).
..picked up the Hummingbird reference from Leander V's work perhaps.....Does he still post at the Alliance? He may not be a god, but he has done his research also. He might shed some light on this....or laugh at it.
I'm still open to Vanessa and crew making sense of all this...........
Yea, I'm still open to hearing more from Vanessa.
Don't know about the moth deal or "unstressed" flowering plants. About all I've ever read is that "co-evolved pollination" article in the Botony of Salvia Divinorum. http://www.sabia.com/salvia/index.html (http://www.sabia.com/salvia/index.html)
Same here, TSTT, though I'm intrigued by the idea of a moth pollinator.
I know there are some moths with incredibly long tongues that are pollinators; also, that some rare plant species are endangered because insecticides are wiping out their equally rare pollinators...which might explain why SD so rarely sets seed, esp. in light of the free hand that U.S. companies have to sell insecticides south of the border that are banned here.
Sheer speculation, of course, but who knows? I vaguely recall some speculation that SD is an ancient hybrid with the fertility problems that hybrids sometimes have.
I've e-mailed Vanessa as well, just to express my hope that she will return and comment.
Man, this one IS getting interesting......
lw
I can quite understand why Vanessa got pissed off after being invited over here to explain the situation only to be greeted with such hostility.
Asking her questions about her plants is one thing but telling her it is “BS†as she is in the middle of explaining was just a bit too much.
I can’t see how anyone who is trying to purposely deceive people coming over to a site like this and trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes.
A rip off merchant would just refuse to do this as it would do them more damage than good for sure.
I think you are over reacting just a little bit, bongo. These peeps have reportedly developed a previously unknown method to polinate an difficult plant to propigate by seed. SO there is this amazing entheogenic discovery and the guy decides to move his wares on ebay? I certainly don't consider Daniel Siebert god, but I would expect the shaman to have viable alternatives to ebay when he makes a disccovery of this magnitude.
If the guy worked as hard as it sounds for the number of years required to make this work and he's the only one on the planet as far as we know using this successful tek, I would hope he's understand/welcome a healthy dose of skepticism. Imo, using this skepticism as an out to avoid a discussion on the topic at hand would be a red flag.
Why sell on ebay when one little announcement of this monumental find to the entheogenic community at large would be all that it took to make all of those plants go away?
I'm guessing the general population of ebay could care less about his find. And I would expect to find buyers with little or virtually no knowledge about sally or its history when compared to the interest level of forums/sites/threads found at most entheogenic communities hanging on the net.
lw
I am not overreacting & neither am I trying to get into a duel with TSTT!
I am simply giving them the benefit of the doubt due the willingness of the lady to explain herself. And as for the announcement on an entheogenic based discussion board such as this being the place to announce it as opposed to selling it directly on EBay.
Well, what can I say? Apart from we have just seen the reaction that they received while trying to explain themselves, haven’t we?
I am not saying they are Kosher & at the same time I am not saying they are scamming.
What I am trying to suggest is that they at least be allowed after being invited to this board to state their case, the opportunity to do so before they are torn to pieces.
I agree, it is a rather extraordinary claim to make but, stranger things have happened.
Ask yourself this question. If you were pulling such a scam, would you come over to a place like this and even attempt to explain it?
I certainly wouldn’t.
Bongo - you are overreacting. Let the lady explain herself, if she cares to. She is an adult and her husband is a shaman. I think she can take care of herself.
I didn't exactly tear her apart without giving her a chance to explain - gezz read the thread. I said her explaination sounds like bs. Really, she has answered very few questions here.
Actually, I said "This sounds like a complete line of BS. The lady admits the plant is practically devoid of salvinorin a. I would suspect it is completely devoid of salvinorin a as this is not a salvia divinorum plant. To get plants to seed once is extremely rare. To claim they have a breeding program is unbelievable."
Ok, later I admitted I might have read that wrong about the salvinorin, but I read it again and it seems she is saying they have a "breeding" progam whereas they have had multiple generations of seed after seed over a long period of time, so many in fact they were able to select plants for specific traits.
"How many generations of seeds to plants to seeds could have occurred by now?"
Winder tore her apart pretty good as well. Winder: "Suppose someone has been working with salvia for 6 years and got seeds every 2 years. 3 generations. That is not too many generations for optimizing a strain. I am skeptical also."
I don't think anyone has tore Vanessa apart. This is the first any of us have heard of a successful salvia breeding program which has been running for six years now. We are excited to verify, as this would be BIG news.
lw
Here's the text from the link provided by tstt earlier in the thread
THE BOTANY OF SALVIA DIVINORUM (LABIATAE)
Abstract
Salvia divinorum, ceremoniously employed by the Mazatec Indians of Oaxaca, is endemic to the sierra inhabited by the Mazatec, its distribution anthropogenic. Plants spread vegetatively, fluorishing in shaded, humid sites, flowering sporadically from October until June. Flower nectar and corolla dimensions suggest ornithophily, and the only pollination event observed involved a single hummingbird, but other factors suggest that visits by birds to the flowers in their present range are opportunistic, and not a product of plant-pollinator coevolution. The species is diploid with n=11, pollen fertility is reduced, there is no active pollen tube inhibition within the style, but some event or process after the pollen tube reaches the ovary is aberrant, as no fully developed nutlet has ever been collected from a Mexican plant, and greenhouse cross-pollinations led to only 3% seed set. Hybridity is suggested, although intermediacy between two known species has not been recognized..
..............
No fully developed nutlet has EVER been collected from a mexican plant.
I'm guessing hybridization would be the most believable theory for me at this time. Maybe sally can be crossed with another plant to improve the viability of reproducing by seed and then breed the sal-a back into the new strain.
I'm also willing to bet the moth in question didn't coevolve with sally, either. Because if that was the case, there should be more wild sally throwing viable seed, imo. (The moths could have been eradicated sometime in the past, I concede, but we're talking about a jungle here.)
lw
In that they have such a poor germination rate usually less than 1/3 would produce seedlings and
Of those roughly ¼ would fail to survive into mature plants then it was a matter of testing for
salvinorin A content which varied considerably from very poor to mediocre to a few with strong
content. So after almost 6 years of rejecting all but a few plants from each set maintaining clones of
each to produce many clones to try to improve pollination results we ended up with the strain we
now refer to as Shamans Golden due to its coloring and the fact that it cost us quite a bit in actual money
to get to it.(testing fees, greenhouse maintenance and other not considerable costs which we hadn’t thought
about in the beginning.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't take the comment highlighted above to mean the plants they are selling are void of S-A. It reads to me as if they weaned the ones with less Salvorin A out before arriving at the clone they are selling.
Numbers that fascinate me:
3% in the greenhouse and 0% in the wild (Mexico).
3% ain't much but it is infinitely greater than zero. This suggests two things to me:
Either there is NO effective pollinator in the wild, for whatever reason, and/or some other issue disrupts nutlet formation there (viral/fungal/parasitic/X factor).
The greenhouse plants that have successfully nutletted :) were clones from the wild, and one might expect them to carry any infectious agent with them. I believe the article we have all referenced also suggested signs of nectar "theft" (perforated rather than merely fed on)--perhaps the few plants that are pollinated in the wild are damaged before seeds can form.
Based on what little field observation we have, the "no pollinator" in the wild hypothesis and the "disruptor in the wild" hypothesis seem equally likely though neither seems sufficient.
I mentioned one possible explanation for the lack of a pollinator (insecticides), but there are a number of others, such as climate change driving the extinction of a pollinator species or pushing the pollinator into a different climate zone; perhaps, as lw suggests, the lack of a coevolved pollinator, perhaps because SD is a recent (in evoluationary terms) hybrid; the arrival in SD's eco niche of a new predator that drove the pollinator to extinction.
I have a hard time getting past that big fat zero, esp. given the report of a hummingbird moving from flower to flower and back again...surely some plants would be pollinated in this process.
The situation reminds me a bit of what happens with the American chestnut and the beech in North America due to invasive organisms: the organism that attacks them does so as they approach flowering/nutting age, but the trees will often continue sending up new growth from roots, which seem to flourish until they, too, reach the life stage at which the invader attacks and kills the "tree"...the root system can survive indefnitely.
Perhaps SD reproduces vegetally so well because the wild population, once readily capable of seed-based reproduction, is now the survivor of a blight of some kind: only those individuals/root systems that excelled at vegetal reproduction would remain (which might have been very few). Or the root systems, like those of the chestnut and beech, manage to continue send up new shoots but the invasive organism, microbial or otherwise (little bug/big bug) disrupts seed formation.
Hell, who knows? Not me. Fun thinkin', tho, way more fun than the work on my desk 8) Now, the really fun project would be to collect all the sages indigenous to that part of Mexico and start trying to hybridize 'em...plant sages, that is :wink:
Check out "The Barriers to Fertility".at the above referenced article. Seems to me, that even with pollinators (birds, moths or humans with tools) available, there are some serious systemic problems with seed set.
Still quite willing to hear Shamans Palace tell their story. My green flag is still up!!! I wonder how the auction is going? What price are they asking? (my wireless is acting up, can't get there) Great discussion here peoples!! 8)
The plant sold for $16.50 (//http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20529&item=3982115776&rd). I emailed the buyer and invited him here. Shaman's Ridge currently has no other ebay auctions running.
Now the first time in a long while I offer skepticism, based on reason rather than emotion, it seems to have offended not the subject of the criticism but another and I wind up accused of tearing someone apart.
How dare I? Frankly, how dare you!
Had I been trying to tear someone apart, I would have made the attack personal. Either the claims are questionable or my assumptions are poor. I have seen no evidence to better assert the claims I questioned or evidence to counter my assumption of the 2 year cycle between seeds planted and seeds dispersed and collected.
Frankly, I think ciriticism of my intent and tone is unfounded and unwarranted. But keep it up, and I won't be around to criticize any more.
PPPPHHHHBBBTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is about as pissed as I have ever gotten here.
I am just stunned. Stunned that a logical basis for examining a claim is treated with as ill-will. Godammit all, I figured most anyone here who has some knowledge of my prespective would know it is rather scientific, but apparently not.
Winder: Sorry. I didn't mean that as you took it. I was the one accused of tearing someone apart. I was really just pointing out your post...you said about the same thing I did....obviously you where very polite with your questioning.
Winder, are you referring to TSTT's comment?
QuoteWinder tore her apart pretty good as well. Winder: "Suppose someone has been working with salvia for 6 years and got seeds every 2 years. 3 generations. That is not too many generations for optimizing a strain. I am skeptical also."
I don't think he intended that as a critique of your comments; personally, I thought your comments expressed a reasonable amount of skepticism without crossing any borders. And I think TSTT meant to note cogency in your remarks, not offensiveness.
I have always found you to be eminently rational and logical. In that spirit, I do wonder about a few things.
I am curious about the length of time required to bring SD to seed. My cuttings have grown and flowered quickly under manipulated light, even when they are not large. I frankly don't know how long it takes for seeds to form (I haven't tried, I just dig the flowers), but unless it is an awfully long time, one might produce more than three generations in the time referenced.
Also, if you have multiple strains (even just the known, named strains) to cross, then each generation could produce many hybrid generations--the numbers could then progress geometrically rather than arithmetically.
Finally, it sounded to me that Vanessa was referring to selecting individual plants with desirable traits and maintaining that strain vegetally.
Certainly six years would be too few to
optimize a new strain, but one could establish clones with some favorable characteristics such as increased temperature extreme/drought tolerance, and perhaps some with high salvinorin content. The real task--bringing those two character sets together in a genuine optimization--would then begin.
In conclusion, I did especially like your raspberry:
QuotePPPPHHHHBBBTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks to both TSTT and Space for allowing my venting.
I feel tolerated, even appreciated, again.
We are good.
Oh dear...Have I set the cat amongst the pigeons here? :shock:
Winder, I think TSTT was just pointing out that he was not the only person being skeptical about this. After, I had posted about people tearing her up.
Of course I was talking about TSTT's BS comment.
Now, obviously, Vanessa doesn't feel like coming back to the board to make any further explanations which, was my point in trying to defuse the situation. As you all know, I am not very good at diffusing anything so I will now go and flail myself with a large block of Tofu as pennants.
I admit, I could have worded the point better.
Flip, Flop, splodge,SplaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaT. Ah... :mrgreen:
"Now, obviously, Vanessa doesn't feel like coming back to the board to make any further explanations"
Bongo, your making excuses for her. I talked to her. She wasn't THAT offended at our skeptisim and said she'd be back to publish her propagation guide (although it might take some time), answer questions etc. She has not.
Bongo: Patience is a virtue not high on the list of todays youth, imo.
ANd critical thinking, apparently, doesn't rank very high, either, with youth nor demigod.
lw
My point is there is a difference between constructive critical examination and tearing someone up. One is rationally-based and the other is emotionally-based, at least in my estimation.
Constructive critical examination is how articles are screened and refined in peer-reviewed journals so that the information is more reliable and more accurately communicated.
Tearing someone up is how people argue and feud.
The former is generally my intention, the latter is not, when posting here.
Exactly Winder. Thanks for the well thought out words.
But after critically examination, I thought it all sounds like bs and want some more answers. I'll try to word things better for the sensitivies we have here. But I admit I have no patience for scammers - however they got here. It wasn't a personal attack - really.
That's cool.
I thought if there sides being taken, you were against me.
There is no need for side taking, so I hope I haven't instigated some.
If the claims are true, fine.
If not, then we shall expose them, and that is all that needs to be done, without getting into name calling.
Cheers!
Cool!
Now while we patiently wait for Vanessa's reply:
Hey Bongo - There is a guy right now (only 27 minutes left) on ebay offering 100's of salvia divinorum seeds for sale. He has a ebay rating of one. (To her credit, Vanessa does have a good ebay rating) Maybe you should buy a couple o hundred and let us know how they are. They are "fresh" and you can "buy it now" for $37.00 hahahhahahhahahhahaha
I just don't see anyone tearing anyone up in this thread.
And honestly, I never even considered anything you said, winder, to be inflamatory and I don't think anyone did. It appears to me like you have other issues with the community that you are venting here in this thread.
lw
Have anyone tried hormons for increasing number of seeds? Also I do not think it is unresonable to beliave that SD have some sort of disease. Maybe thats the reason both for the problem with setting seeds and the surpricing sensitivity to correct humus levels. I beliave my SD collections have been less sensitive to low humus levels since I started to treat them a couple of weeks ago with tobacco in the water. Maybe I can get seeds also?
Interesting, herman....
I'm guessing the soil ph/nutrient levels in their (restricted) natural environs must be as close to perfect for this plant as you can get. Or maybe just perfect for asexual reproduction?
lw
A lot of other Salvias seem to be able to stand more environment. SD do not to seem to be quite normal.
I was thinking maybe the nicotine would kill the sickness if it indeed is one, maybe some virus, and it would be healthier and flower more. Virus infections can be quit subtile and systematic in species. But I dont know. Maybe I should but some normal Salvia beside it and see if it gets similar problems.
I tried Pyrex on one last year but the Salvia didnt like it, but tobacco usually works without problems. Not that Pyrex would be effective against virus.
I am also thinking about using teas with other herbs to see if it increase health. Maybe Hibiscus, Aloe Vera and Chamomill.
If it is a systematic virus infection and one could remove it, it would be fun to see how that affects the plant. Probably it would loose the problems but maybe it would loose other traits also like the Salvinor production.
Probably it is just some mutant. Maybe the Astec played around with chromosom mutanting herbs on seeds. They were fond on flowers and probably had some knowledge about these also.
Have anyone, by the way, tried to give Selen to it?
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"The plant sold for $16.50 (//http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20529&item=3982115776&rd). I emailed the buyer and invited him here. Shaman's Ridge currently has no other ebay auctions running.
hmmmm that says something, not sure what...."don't get into breeding, it ain't worth it?"
Actually the idea of a hot/dry tolerating variety has intrigued me for awhile, 'cause the weather is like that here sometimes.....perhaps I'll cross some of our cactii with my salvias....I'll get back to you all when I have some success......... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Yep, this has certainly been an interesting thread.... Yo Winder, I am particularly fond of the rational and scientific approach you often take when examining things that come up here.... I too am anxious to hear Vannessa's in depth report as she promised...... senorsal
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"Exactly Winder. Thanks for the well thought out words.
But after critically examination, I thought it all sounds like bs and want some more answers. I'll try to word things better for the sensitivies we have here. But I admit I have no patience for scammers - however they got here. It wasn't a personal attack - really.
You want more answers so tell her it is BS?
How many more answers are you going to get by saying that and isn’t it odd that you say you want more answers after you already call it bullshit?
Would it not be more logical to get the extra answers you seek and then call it Bull Shit? It is not the act of calling a con bull shit I am against, just the timing.
And as far as the seeds on ebay comment goes… :evil: :evil: :evil:
You got a problem Bongo? If so take it somewhere else. I haven't commented yet, but this isn't the first time you've posted about suspected things on ebay and suggest other's buy them. That isn't cool. If you trust this lady so much, you don't think it sounds like complete bs, you think in six years they can turn over generation after generation of seed (ignoring the fact it takes 6 months or so to get one mature plant from seed) go buy your own plant and prove everyone wrong. Did you read the Botany of Salvia Divinorum - the barrriers to fertility and what about the co-evolved pollinators? You think they can't find a pollinator that evolved with salvia in mexico, but somehow a moth found in OK is the pollinator for this plant? Vanessa has made some extraordiary claims, that demand extraordinary evidence and skeptism.
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"You got a problem Bongo? If so take it somewhere else. I haven't commented yet, but this isn't the first time you've posted about suspected things on ebay and suggest other's buy them. That isn't cool. If you trust this lady so much, you don't think it sounds like complete bs, you think in six years they can turn over generation after generation of seed (ignoring the fact it takes 6 months or so to get one mature plant from seed) go buy your own plant and prove everyone wrong.
What the fuck are you talking about? Why would I be trying to get people to buy anything off ebay. Ok, what was it, I was trying to get people to buy off ebay ? Are you going to back that statement up?
hmmmm...try page 2 of this thread:
"The Vendor certainly sounds to have good intentions in providing all the information she did. Ok, who is going to be the first to try one?
Jupe sounds like a good candidate to me."
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"hmmmm...try page 2 of this thread:
"The Vendor certainly sounds to have good intentions in providing all the information she did. Ok, who is going to be the first to try one?
Jupe sounds like a good candidate to me."
That was an obvious joke! Jupe allready has more than enough plants.
You got a poker up your ass there TSTT or what?
Please no personal attacks. Read winders post above.
Your joke is not obvious nor funny. You started this thread and suggest others buy her plants. Not cool. Like I said.
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"Please no personal attacks. Read winders post above.
Your joke is not obvious nor funny. You started this thread and suggest others buy her plants. Not cool. Like I said.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
.........I'm going to be catching some moths, I think they like my plants.
E-Bay here I come!!! super rare pollinator moths....or maybe worms
Bongo and I have a good-fun joking relationship that goes back away, so there is "no harm , no foul", it was an obvious joke.....
.......In fact, the way he has been posting pictures of mops and dustbrushes on other forums, I am afraid something may be happening to his brain!!!!
Lighten up everybody.....we'll just wait for Vanessa to speak up eh?
What? You no read english ver' good, bongo?
I've learned a lot about salvia in this thread. For that I'm thankful.
You would appear to have much to learn about/from scammers, man. All we've heard on the topic so far has been from a person who claims to possess very limited knowledge on the subject at hand. The shaman has the answers and he has yet to post here. Rather, we've received vague second hand observations, quotes and suppositions from the third party mentioned above. If the person truly feels attacked by the posts above to the point of not participating in the conversation, I prolly would have to posit that critical/scientific reasoning just wasn't her forte. At that point, we are left with a secret salvia breeding program; the first truly successful venture of its kind in the modern world. One that sells Its wares on ebay.
I'm willing to bet we haven't heard the first or last from the good shaman.
But if we don't hear more, I'll be left to conjure my own images of a slightly mad shaman working feverishly in a greenhouse lab filled to the glass rafters with a host of brand spanking new sally strains just waiting to be named and then sold on ebay. I'll forever be left with an image of this bearded, locust eating fellow pausing his work only long enough read a thread on the internet and to become offended by a skeptic who had the audacity to label the initial claims as b.s., of all things. "B.S.?" the shaman fumes. "I'll show those unbelievers!" With that the good shaman slams shut his wireless ibook and severs all communication with the outside world for another six years; surfacing only periodically to sell a plant or two for the low price of $16.95.....
But seriously, I'm willing to bet Vanessa and the shaman have a life beyond the net and that we will hear from these talented people when time allows.
lw
quote bongo: That was an obvious joke! Jupe allready has more than enough plants.
Well, the above logic escapes me. If jupe has a large sally collection, I fail to see how the above statement was an ovbious joke. Matter of fact , any fellow with a large collection would prolly be the best bet to get ot bite on the ebay deal posted in this thread, imo.
Btw, I also seem to remember you or maybe someone else bringing ebay deals to the community in the past. I do remember a shady ebay deal getting posted and later deemed to be a scamor something similarly shady if'n I remember correctly.....
lw
Jokes bewteen two members of the community that are understood by one another should be clear to the rest of the readers. Use the smilies to the left of the composition window would allow more of the readers to be in on the joke.
Then maybe there will be fewer misunderstandings that are not helping us get anywhere.
Just an idea.
Shucks, winder, could we possibly get anywhere without misunderstandings occuring? I'm guessing not. Misunderstandings can be integral to real communication/searching/learning, imo.
From chaos, order, but then we're back in that damnable chaos again.
From order, chaos and then we're lucky to be back to order once again.
We can calculate averages, plotting a straight line, attempting to live the anticeptic life a scientific lab entails, but emotional reality follows the waves up and down. The only thing straight about that line, imo, would be the water that divides a glass from being both half-empty and half-full......
lw
Hey, LW...Knock off the crap here man.
And, yes...I did previously mention the lemony strain that was on ebay.
I mentioned that because the Salvia farm was the place I got my first plants from at $5:00 each. Sound like a rip off to you then does it?
LOL quote bongo: What the fuck are you talking about? Why would I be trying to get people to buy anything off ebay. Ok, what was it, I was trying to get people to buy off ebay ? Are you going to back that statement up?
quote bongo: And, yes...I did previously mention the lemony strain that was on ebay. I mentioned that because the Salvia farm was the place I got my first plants from at $5:00 each. Sound like a rip off to you then does it?
Btw, a scam doesn't necessarily have to be a rip-off. Finding buyers is often all some vendors are looking for.
You going to throw me the debil eyes, too, bongo? :wink:
Back to the real topic at hand..... If sally fails to set seed due to a disease, then virtually every plants of this species is affected. I'd like to hear the opinions of peeps with experience creating hybred plants. I can imagine using pollen from sally to seed a host and then developing a strain with the second plants (intact) reproductive organs, breeding for sal-a content. Subesquent generations could focus on sal-a production from plants able to accept pollen.
lw
[quote="laughingwillow"
Btw, a scam doesn't necessarily have to be a rip-off. Finding buyers is often all some vendors are looking for.
lw[/quote]
Yeah, and I wasn't trying to get anyone to buy the lemony strain either, I was simply informing the board that they were claiming they had a new strain as I just did on this board. So what is the big deal you fucking idiots?
There is no big deal, bongo. That has been the point all along. You have been overreacting through out this entire thread, imo. And it continues.....
But your argument concerning an opinion that a scammer would never visit a site such as ours after being questioned struck me as faulty. I saw no such pressure to deter a scammer from stopping by and polishing a pitch. However, when the community turns out to be more informed than the average pidgeon is when I would expect a scammer to slink away.
I also find it interesting that the person who allegedly was the most disrespectful, tstt, has since exchanged communications with Vanessa. Her reaction was much less volatile than yours, bongo, and she was the attacked party by all accounts. But you sure seem to be looking to give these people an out.
Imo, all of the niose you have created concerning a belief that we'd offended Venessa only leads me to conclude that you are either more naive than I at first believed, or possibly less.....
lw
Quote from: "laughingwillow"But you sure seem to be looking to give these people an out.
Imo, all of the niose you have created concerning a belief that we'd offended Venessa only leads me to conclude that you are either more naive than I at first believed, or possibly less.....
lw
LW: I simply thought and still think right now, that the woman should be allowed to state her case fully, after which if it is suspect, I would be there with the rest of you calling it BS.
What is the point in prematurely blowing you cookies, then contacting the person for more information? That and that alone is the point I was trying to make.
Doesn’t that sound a reasonable attitude to take especially after someone on the board invited her over here to explain things?
I really do not care for the way you are implying that I am somehow in cahoots with or at very least have a vested interest in these vendors or eBay.
That is overreacting to the max as I have never ever tried to sell a cutting, plant or plant material to anyone, let alone on eBay.
LW "... also find it interesting that the person who allegedly was the most disrespectful, tstt, has since exchanged communications with Vanessa. Her reaction was much less volatile than yours... " Yea really.
LW - Bongo appearanly has issues with me other than my timing. Which happens to be impecable! When is the correct time? The correct time to pull out such heavy skeptism as saying something sounds like bs? I'd say it is just after someone suggests to others they buy the suspected product.
Please stop Bongo: you've stated your supposed issue with me in this thread, many times. If there is something else start a new thread.
..."I have never ever tried to sell a cutting, plant or plant material to anyone, let alone on eBay."
Well except for here and that lemonni thread. I don't have it anymore, but didn't you say you were in japan so you were hoping someone would buy one from the guy, you KNEW he was honest as you bought a $5 plant etc.?
BTW: Nothing is stopping vanessa from stating her case fully. She's a member here and all she has to do is type and push the submit button. Maybe you scared her away with your lack of patience. Shamans hate that.
Bongo: You think I'm over reacting, eh?
I'm just atempting to help you understand how the situation could be construed and offering you the opportunity to clarify certain impressions I've received from your posts in this thread.
Btw, If Vanessa didn't feel slighted enough to break off the discussion by the initial doubt expressed by members of this community, I wouldn't expect your blowing the situation out of proportion to effect her participation.
On the other hand you do seem to be doing your best to give the shaman and company an easy out, bro. :lol:
lw
quote bongo: The Vendor certainly sounds to have good intentions in providing all the information she did. Ok, who is going to be the first to try one?
Jupe sounds like a good candidate to me.
Bongo: You certainly sounded eager to promote an item for sale to me. Thats called shilling, btw. It has its own term as it is a common component of many scams. Rereading the thread, you appear to be the only one so easily convinced by the vendors in question. But you attempt to convince others to buy first. Hmmmmm......
Btw, don't worry, I know you are no bone fide shill. The real deal would have prolly stepped up to the plate stating an intention to purchase the product in question from the above vendors in order to instill confidence in the heard being fleeced.
lw
No Bongo ain't no bonafide shill. More of an unwitting shill.
All is not lost in this sad tale - the buyer emailed me. He applied for membership here and should be posting after he gets the plant. Monday or so.
:D :wink: --- And so, the saga continues: I'll be interested to hear what the buyer has to say, AND I am patiently awaiting further info from Vanessa... Until then I remain mildly skeptical, yet hopefully optimistic-------- senorsal--------
Perhaps a board policy of not posting about things on Ebay would be a way to avoid future threads that are rife with all this bickering. Besides, I thought it was general board consensus that Theatrum Botanicum was a rather reputable seller. So who needs Ebay?
BTW: Anyone ever purchase Luna from them, they've been out of it for the longest time.
As for the fertility/lost pollinator/progation issue, has anyone ever considered that the reason why the seeds don't work is that the plant is being progated by plant cuttings? The seeds could be an emergency means of propogation, whereas breeding by cuttings could have evolved over the centuries of symbiotic relationship with the indigenous peoples. I'll be the first to admit that it's somewhat of a far fetched theory, but just remember: Nothing propogates a plant like facinated humans. :D
aneurysm: Interesting. But I'm afraid that your logic concerning the reason for the seeds being unviable escapes me.
Its almost like saying that a vehicle needs fuel to run because of a depencency caused when it was fueled up the first time......
lw
A lot of plants have flowers partly or full without any function. Most of these plants are plants created by humans, especially the last years, mostly for ornaments.
Quote from: "laughingwillow"aneurysm: Interesting. But I'm afraid that your logic concerning the reason for the seeds being unviable escapes me.
Its almost like saying that a vehicle needs fuel to run because of a depencency caused when it was fueled up the first time......
lw
haha that reminds of my first experiences with evil synthetic "you know whats" ...took awhile to shut the darn motor off...made me go get more fuel all the time....middle of the night..morning, noon, haha.........
Any news from Shamans Palace?
On a more serious note, I'm guessing that sally would have probably fallen by the evolutionary wayside long ago if not for its medicinal properties. The plant had been relegatged to a small area in central mexico for the most part, seemingly due to a finicky nature and the lack of an ability to propagate by seed. And its these same medicinal properties which have caused man to gain enough interest worldwide to prolly insure the viability of the plant at least for the time being. But the special properties of the plant have helped as much or more as the ability to clone easily, imo.
lw
also, consider that its enviornment may be changing for the last 100,000 yrs or so...becoming wetter(favoring rooting) or drier and sun
(favoring flowering)...I don't know,hmmmmm that discussion can go either way, salvia roots so well that it literally follows water. But where it grows(see pics)http://www.salviaphotos.com/index.htm
SalviaPhotos.com it seems to be very competitive, small plants don't seem to grow well underneith it( see ....it may produce its own alleopathic compounds, like chapparal does,(white and black sages do this) which prevent other plants from growing. Its human usage history seems murky,at least prior to 500 yrs or so..... thanks to the spanish, but it really could be a relatively new home cultivar.
On that note... I'm still amazed by the difference between Luna and ALL others.....Luna's really seem like a different plant. That "sport" popped up in just 20 yrs or so....maybe the plant does this regularly? I keep looking arond base of plants....and will go through flowers this year a little more carefully than previous years. ......OK just some babbeling, hope everybodys plants are growing like crazy in these long summer un-Mazatec like locations!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
Perhaps lack of changing environment is why Salvia has successfully shed itself of the energetic burden of having to diversify by means of seeds. If the environment is steady in terms of pests, disease, and climate, then variability serves no purpose. Seed production is burdensome to a plant.
I wouldn't be surprised that there is a shady damp area that salvia likes that is so invariate that each year is like the others, more so than the desert areas that cacti favor and certainly moreso than the widely varying climates that many evergreens tolerate.
Edited since my phrasing and typing has been for crap lately; look how many edits it took. And now I have messed with Dendro's quote. Tee hee.
"I wouldn't be surprised that there is shady damp area that salvia likes that so invariate that each year is like the others, more so than the desert areas that cacti favor and certainly moreso than the widely varying climates that many evergreens tolerate."
sounds like the leafy patch outside my kitchen window :wink:
No word from our locust eating shaman.
--------------------------------
Note from purchaser:
Hi It seems this person got a lot of problems. the
last bunch of people who puchased from her did not get
the item they won in the auction I being one of them.
It seems she had some dort of problem people are
writing to ebay about it. She has not replied to any
emails including mine. It may be a lost cause. I'll
let you know if thew situation changes.
--------------------------------
Recent feedback isn't looking good.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... mans_ridge (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=shamans_ridge)
Yup, looks bad.
BTW, does anyone know if these are the same folks as the shamanspalace.com website? I've been left with a (thankfully small and plastic) order unfilled. Website down, e-mails bounced back...
Izn't this tha guyz that brought us "lemmnoii" and "chicken diaperz"?
Soundz like two birdz onna wire - chirp, chirp, chirpin'...and not sayin' a damn thing.
Iffin' they had that many seedz, they would not need a hybrid. They could sell tha seedz fertile seedz fora small fortune.
Ebay? Shammanz hate that shit. LMAO!
Fin
Hey, fin. Good to see you around.
Anyone seen bongo lately? It seems to be taking him an inordinant amount of time to come around with a story of how the community caused the ebay deal to go bad.
I think the community owes a big ups to tstt for putting the brakes on the shill and the sham-man when he did.
lw
Btw, fin, I'm guessing any seeds they have produced ARE hybridized.
lw
Yo Fin, you ole reprobate :lol: Good seeing 'ya 'round these parts... sal
QuoteLW: Btw, fin, I'm guessing any seeds they have produced ARE hybridized.
Yeah, the whole
genus iz a hybrid. I reckon I shoulda said, 'they would not have needed to create
another new hybrid.
The article mentionz that the problem iz with the pollen, so takin' the pollen from SD to another salvia will not work. Or, at least not work any better than it doez with selfin' SD.
One needz to take the pollen from a
different salvia and crossin' that with SD.
There iz a reported 3% seed viability in cultivation. So, there iz some viability, but it iz very low.
Inbreedin' depression. Sorta like tha shit in "Deliverance".
Maybe the two original parent plantz iz extinct now.
So, SD iz 2N and N=11.
These are the N=11 Salvias:
S. coccinea
S. castanea
S. canariensis
S. tilifolia
S. sahandica
S. pseudococinea
S. lanata
S. leucantha
S. moorcroftiana
S. hypoleuca
S. gilliesii
S. grahamii
Cross tha pollen from these with SD and hope for a blue ribbon pig at tha state fair. Any plantz from seedz would need to be back-crossed with tha momma to get more desired rocket-fuel traitz.
Or, attempt to increase tha ploidy of SD by colchicine. This may allow or increase SD fertility. May not, me little HST-ites.
Or, induce radiation to form a mutant strain(*not inna microwave-o).
Tha article mentionz short day flowerz. Also, 3m plantz before fruitin'. Maybe they flower at smaller sizez, but do not fruit unless taller.
Hold a friggin' gun ta their nutletz.
Force 'em ta have plant sex.
Ya'll are a buncha plant pervz.
Shamanz hate that shit!
Make shure ya got plenty-o-filmz.
$19.99 plus $14.95 fer shippin' ana handlin'
(*allow 6 ta ate weekz fer delivuree)
(**offer void in tha pellikan state)
Finny Salvia Seed
You would need a threaking lot of seeds to use colchicine considereing that only 2 - 4% av viable to start with. A couple of 1000.
Thanks for the info, fin.
There was also a description of the plant included earlier in the thread that sited the reproductive problem of sally to be other than pollen related. It mentioned something about the physical reproductivew system of the plant receiving the pollen.
I was guessing that the pollen from sally was viable, but reproduction was limited due to a system deformity or disease.
Thanks for adding a little science to me speculation, brawh.
lw
If salvia divinorum reproduction is limited by the plant's own organs being faulty, then would a reasonable approach to hybridization be to take the salvia divinorum's pollen to a flower-to-seed viable salvia of another species?
Splendens and officinalis species are grown from seed rather easily.
Hey, windey...
That's what I've been wondering. However, I have little working knowledge of Its relatives. My guess would be crossing sally first with a another plant to repair the sex organs and then breeding back for sal-a content once that's been achieved.
lw
It would seem that to do as you suggest LW would be to continue using SD pollen on the new generations raised from seeds of the cross.
So first generation plant is 1/2 SD, the next is 3/4 SD, and so on.
There is probably an optimal number of generations to go through to maintain some SD content but not end up with a seed deficient cross.
As to what species to cross with, I haven't a clue.
As for carrying such out, I haven't the patience.
I'm thinking one would breed specifically for viable seed production as well as potency. But I'm guessing the number of generations wouldn't matter as long as the offspring produce viable seed. Potency would seem to be less of an issue as time elapsed and viable reproductive organs prolly more so, eh?
lw
I'm really just trying to figure out what the shaman may have been doing these last six years.
lw.
Shamanz don't like being questioned...they hate that shit!
Interestin' find:
"Tha secret ta gettin' this one ta bloom is ta avoid light on tha plant afta dark. Tha right amount of heat & nutrientz(moderate in both casez) also affectz tha bloom."
There iz also a mention about at which stage tha cuttin's are taken. Cuttin'z should only be taken from mature plantz. Immature cuttin'z can lead to a different lookin' plant with different characteristicz.
I highly suggest lettin' tha platnz grow to maturity. Maybe never take a cuttin' from it. Cuttin'z may affect the bloomz. Have some plantz that cuttin'z are taken from it only.
Yeah LW, the pollen iz only semi-sterile. Somethin' happenz after fertilization. If it were sterile - no plantz would set seed. But, there iz still somethin' wrong with tha fertilization process.
The list above iz not to be considered complete. I would also suggest usin' another N=11 plant to cross. The plantz may set seed like crazee, but have tha wrong geneticz. It needz to be a n=11 plant.
Fin
Yea, the plant doesn't like light at night. She told me once to turn off the night light that was shinning on her, but then again I might have just been trippin.
I have some pollen...I figure it should last a few years?
Isn't any sally plant with roots basically mature? (With the exception of those few seedlings out there.....)
After all, a cutting taken from a genetically mature plant is also genetically mature, no?
Would the pollen necessarily have to be sterile if'n there exists a problem in the fertilization process? Couldn't it be a reproductive system problem?
lw
heres a bit from A. Reisfield.........flowering note...I never take cuttings from plant tops after September, I think it discourages flowers....cuttings usually are accidental anyway....dogs or unkown animals or me with shovel and compost or camera tromping around patch....lateral branches seem just ready to POP off
Hand pollinations in the greenhouse clearly showed the chief barrier to fertility in S. Divinorum is not a failure to be pollinated. Of a total of 108 self-pollinations (108 stigmas dusted with pollen from the same plant or genetically identical plants), only 11 mericarps developed fully into dark, indurate, viable nutlets. Since each pollinated flower could potentially yield four nutlets, the 11 fruit represent 2.5% of a total potential yield of 432 fruit. Of 190 cross-pollinations, only 24 (3%) nutlets fully matured from a potential of 760 fruit. Most of the calyces abscised between 5 and 10 days after pollination, and quite often one or two (sometimes more) mericarps were noticed to be developing before the calyx and ovary fell from the plant. Several of the mature seeds were germinated in the UW Greenhouses, and vigorous seedlings developed into plants indistinguishable (though not grown to flowering) from their parents. Since flowering is so sporadic in Mexico, pollination may, in fact, be undependable. Furthermore, pollen seems not to adhere to the stigma with great effeciency. Still, many viable pollen grains that were deposited on receptive stigmas did not lead to fruit set, indicating some failure after this stage in the life cycle of S. Divinorum.
It has been suggested that S. Divinorum is self-sterile (ValdÈs 1983; ValdÈs et al. 1987) which, if true, would explain the observed failure to set fruit. Individual populations all seem to be clonal, and plants of adjacent populations could feasably be genetically identical. Given the anthropogenic distribution of S. Divinorum throughout the region inhabited by the Mazatec, it is also quite possible that many distinct populations are derived from a single source. Such a situation would explain why artificial cross-pollinations resulted in no greater fruit set than self-pollinations, since the so called cross-pollinations would, in reality, be between genetically identical plants. Even if plants were not genetically identical, a common self-incompatability factor shared by the functional male and female plants would prevent successful fertilization. This type of self rejection, though, seems to be rare in Salvia (few studies have been done), and also could not account for the reduction in pollen fertility.
Further resolution of the problem was obtained by studying pollen germination and tube growth through styles of hand-pollinated flowers. Of 39 styles observed, 13 (33%) had four or more pollen tubes that traversed the entire length of the style, reaching the ovary. Three or more pollen tubes reached the ovary in almost one half the styles observed. Of the 20 styles in which four or more pollen grains or tubes were observable at all, 14 had three or more pollen tubes that reached the ovary. Also, no difference was noted between the self- and supposed cross-pollinations.
In classical genetic self-incompatability systems, the site of pollen tube inhibition is on the stigma surface or somewhere in the style. A pollen grain may fail to germinate, or produces a tube that grows abnormally and is soon occluded by callose, or produces a tube that is eventually rejected by the transmitting tissue of the style (Heslop-Harrison 1975). Although this type of active inhibition of the pollen tube may not be the only form of genetic mate discrimination in plants (Mulcahy & Mulcahy 1983), the best understood self-rejection systems (oppositional systems) do involve observable changes (e.g., swelling) in the growing tip of the pollen tube. No such abnormalities were observed for S. Divinorum, and no occlusions were found anywhere in the style. A barrier to seed set is apparently encountered after pollen tubes reach the ovary, at some point between the time the tube enters the micropyle of the ovule and the early development of the embryo. Since calyces often abscise while the included nutlets are developing, post-zygotic embryo abortion or endosperm failure is probable. Whether this is due to inbreeding depression, hybridity, or a late acting (delayed) self-incompatability reaction is difficult to know with certainty. The latter is unlikely, especially because gametogenesis and other stages of the life cycle are also irregular, and one would think the various aberrations have a common cause. Inbreeding depression is often the fate of taxa that become closely associated with man, and could potentially cause the observed irregularities.
The various anomalies that characterize Salvia Divinorum might perhaps be best explained as due to hybridity, but unfortunately, additional evidence is lacking. To none of the almost 500 species that comprise the Neotropical Salvia subg. Calosphace (Benth.) Benth. does S. Divinorum show any obvious affinity, nor is intermediacy between two known species evident. Although the various character states of S. Divinorum are encountered at one place or another within subg. Calosphace, I have been unable to identify the two species, out of the hundreds, which, when crossed, might have produced offspring that look like S. Divinorum. The species is certainly anomalous in sect. Dusenostachys Epl. (Epling 1939), to which it was originally assigned (Epling & J·tiva 1962). (//http://photos17.flickr.com/23551069_2a1b09e623.jpg)
Heres last years flowers.....
Quote from: "laughingwillow"Isn't any sally plant with roots basically mature? (With the exception of those few seedlings out there.....)
After all, a cutting taken from a genetically mature plant is also genetically mature, no?
Nope. Three stages are: juvey, transitional, and adult. The adult(mature) stage iz, "tha reproductive stage at which the plant produces flowers."
So, iff'n cuttin's are taken from a plant that haz never flowered, they iz immature cuttin'z.
Quote from: "laughin'willow"Would the pollen necessarily have to be sterile if'n there exists a problem in the fertilization process? Couldn't it be a reproductive system problem?
lw
Could be either or both or neither. I thunk tha artikle suggestz that tha problem iz, "somethin' after tha pollen travelz down tha pollen tubes.
With tha immature cuttin's, there iz a passage in this here plant propagation book about it.
"Vegetative propagation from the mature phase of ivy(Hedera helix) produces a plant with a bushy structure and palmate leaves, whereas vegetative propagation from the juvenile phase produces a vine with narrower and lobed leaves."
This may or may not happen it SD. Thang iz, iff'n cuttin'z are taken in tha juvey phase, maybe this will cause problemz with the reproductive partz of tha plant.
TSTT, iz that SD pollen? You can store it in tha fridge. Use a dessicant or it will mold. Some pollen keepz a long time and otherz do not. Try it. If it iz SD pollen, cross it with one on tha list above. S. coccinea iz at ebery local plant store.
Tha thang with tha nite time light on Sally iz compared to poinsettias. Article mentioned that SD iz not as sensitive as poinsettias, but all precaustionz should be taken.
Fin
" S. coccinea iz at ebery local plant store. "
Cool! If I succeed, I'll see you on ebay!!!!
Quote from: "TooStonedToType"Cool! If I succeed, I'll see you on ebay!!!!
4 outta 5 shamanz surveyed...hate that shit.
Fin
hmmm--my plants must be confused. They are outside the kitchen window, and get light at night, but they still flower well.