hey guys, I show some pictures??
(//http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5832/79062476.jpg)
(//http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5648/58723982.jpg)
(//http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6382/64574961.jpg)
ayahuasca-journey
:tea:
A-j, are these pics of the plant you are calling Diplopterys cabrerana?
Is this the plant from which you are making and selling cuttings?
Is this the plant the native Americans showed you? Is this the one they called chalipanga?
Have you drunk an aya brew made from the leaves of this plant?
Did it bring the Glory and the Light?
Are these the pics that you showed Vajrapr8? (Vajrapr8 said, after seeing your pics, he cancelled his order, cuz he did not believe the pics matched with D. cab.)
A-j, I don't care what the scientific ID or scientific name of this plant is. All I care about is this: is it active and potent as an aya admixture plant. If it is active and potent with the Light (DMT), then I would say it is chalipanga. And chalipanga is what I would like to buy, please. :smoke1 :smoke1 :smoke1
You do know that Shoemaker and his native shaman friends have never seen chalipanga in flower before, right? He has said that he has never seen chalipanga set seed, also his wife and a very knowledgeable shaman in Iquitos have said that they have never seen chalipanga in flower or making seed.
So if you have a plant that flowers and makes seeds, it may be a different plant than the plants that Shoemaker knows and grows as chalipanga.
It may be a close cousin of D. cabrerana.
Or it may actually be a rare flowering, seeding D. cabrerana, also known as chalipanga. If so, congratulations on your find!!! :cool3
Personally, I do not care which name the plant goes by. The name is not so important, but the experience is. I would just love to grow a chalipanga plant, so that I could brew aya with it, for the Forje and the Luz.
If the plant you show brings the Light and Glory to the aya brew, then it is chalipanga to me, and I would love to grow it.
:e_biggrin: :e_biggrin: :e_biggrin:
Irie,
Hummm???
These are the seeds I got in from aj....that were labeled "Diplopterys seeds"....
[attachment=0:2mlbdv0i]DSCN3167a.JPG[/attachment:2mlbdv0i]
Now, they ain't looking the same as the OP photo, above???
So I'm confused!
Also got these seeds labeled "U.T."? Anyone want to hazard a guess???
[attachment=1:2mlbdv0i]DSCN3166a.JPG[/attachment:2mlbdv0i]
Respect
Z
Hi, my name is Alberto i am new menber here just registered but i am old menber at edot, i think AJ has had a little confusion when selecting the seeds and confused with white and red caapi seeds it was an honest mistake as they look very simililar to chali AJ is actually getting some of his items from our location in the jungle so he is working with us, we have been working in the investigation of chaliponga for 10 years as we were told that the plant was not original from the area, so we decided to make our own research with a botanist and anthropologist friends.
with tones of local information from curanderos around here, of course the plant is not near pucallpa but this is growing in our land 4 hours down ucayali river so be sure that the plant showed in picture above is a 100% chaliponga we tried the leaves in brew and they are chaliponga for real, we got to the conclusion that there are 2 strains of diplopterys cabrerana the one with more sharped pointed leaves and there is another one with bigger and little rounded leaves
we tried both with good results mixed with caapi.
please, do not blame A-j he has done his best to cooperate with the identification too.
we will be happy to keep providing information for you
feel free to ask
peace
Alberto
Thanks Alberto, that is great info. The plant in the pic above is very beautiful. Who took the pic? Is it from one of your plants?
I would be so happy to have viable seeds or cuttings from either strain of chali you describe.
Do both strains flower and make seeds in your district?
Are the flowers from both strains yellow, as in the pic above? Are there other differences between the strains, besides the shape of the leaves?
I have seen pics of both types of chalipanga you describe, and I have drunk a brew made from the type of leaf shown in the pic above. It was quite active.
Thanks to you and a-j for the work you have done with these plants.
Nice first post and welcome to spf, alberto. However it's going to take more than a new name to convince people on these boards. I know nothing about it but those seeds zaka showed look exactly like the seeds from my caapi plant and other caapi seeds i've seen. That doesn't prove anything because different plants sometimes have similar seeds.
P viridis leaves have been reported to give dmt effects when smoked. And of course when used in an ayahuasca. PV leaves are well known to contain this substance. If this chaliponga is a little stronger, that's nice but so what. If you have people who trip off a little smoke from pv, you might have the same thing from this and it may not be as strong as pv. I don't know the answer but i'm not paying big bucks for a bag of magic beans or magic stems. If this exists it will be brought here and sold in a normal way. Caapi grows like mad and no matter how greedy the first person is, sooner or later many will be growing it and it will be available at a reasonable price. Then we can calmly discuss how strong it is and how it should be used.
Even if it never flowers it can be cloned. Air layering works on many difficult species. Then there is tissue culture. This is beginning to sound like a myth or at least an exaggeration.
Irie,
Thanks Alberto.
Could you take a quick look at the following links and let me know which of them looks like the two types you have???
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-ecu-2196515.jpg
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-ecu-1951552.jpg
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-dipl-cabr-bra-928895.jpg
http://fm1.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/?PHPSESSID=101232c38591071a74c42602000f6831&page=results&rpno=1&family=MALPIGHIACEAE&country[]=&genus=Diplopterys&species=&intPerPage=25
Also any idea on U.T.?
Respect
Z
Hey guys, first thank Alberto for his participation in the forums and he is not a senior member on this forum ... and well I clarify that it was an honest mistake with the seeds, now it is understood that I do not want to sell the caapi vine per CD, only showed the picture of the seeds to create a confusion vajrapirate ....
after that can display photos of the mother plant flowers and seeds so that they understand that it was a plant Chaliponga 100% real and true ....
thank you all and have a good weekend !!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :P
ayahuasca-journey
Hi, again well zaka it is difficult to tell from dried leaves the first one you showed me look like the sharped pointed vine, both chalis bloom yellow flowers the other strain has little redish conbination but this only blooms 1 time every 2 years, yes, both strain grow in the area, from my own research both are active.
chaliponga is just a plant like chacruna with the difference that this is a vine, some people say is more active but from my experience is the same, vissions might be different as they bring different spirits, but i prefer to use chacruna i am more confidence, i have friends using chali over here.
talking about the seeds, to determine a viable seed of chali you have to be very carefull when selecting as there is a bug that eats the nut of the seed, so it needs to be wacthed most of the time to determine is 100% viable, i have sent chali seeds to ktbotanicals last year i do not know how many were viable i gave him special offer anyways this is a very jelous plant to grow but not impossible from cutting is best.
i will be happy to keep helping guys
peace
Alberto
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3100/1043-4534(2006 (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3100/1043-4534(2006))95%5B1%3AEODATE%5D2.0.CO%3B2
I had trouble downloading this one the last time I tried, but this is imo the most important document to read if you were interested in properly differentiating between Diplopterys and Banisteriopsis: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ccda ... B_2006.pdf (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ccdavis/pdfs/Anderson_Davis_HPB_2006.pdf)
It clearly describes D. cabrerana as having a ruffled rather than flat and straight wing.
All of the pics I have seen so far seem to be of flat samaras.
I think it is important not to judge either of our new friends too harshly. It is possible "chaliponga" locally refers to a plant which is not D. cabrerana itself, but another DMT bearing vine.
Fascinating links, Vajrapr8.
Wow, Diplopterys is a large group of varying plant relatives! I didn't realize how many there were. Yes, a-j's plant is definitely not B. rusbyana or D. cabrerana.
But what is it? Trippin me out. Yellow flowers, almost blunt leaves in places. And it contains Light. According to Alberto, it contains less Light than the fabled D. cab sample assayed at, what was it, 1.3%? But still, it is an effective admixture, again, according to Alberto.
Perhaps these many species and subspecies of Diplopterys are widely active? Kinda makes sense they would be, so many are so similar. Wish I knew more. :tea:
The plant is called chaliponga in it's 'hood, and it has a history of use. Perhaps a-j's plant is more representative of this subfamily than the exceptional sample of D. cab, with an activity range more like P. viridis? It has been called chacruna by native brewers, which may imply a comparison or correspondence. And perhaps there are many more cousins out there. Some of them may be very concentrated. They may respond well to loving culture.
Seems there is much work for ethnobotanists still to do in SA.
A-j, please keep us updated on the taxonomic ID of your plant. :tea:
Hi, this has come to an exageration, the plant we have i am sure is a DC, BR, OR DMT vine no matters how you want to call it, it is an active vine, we are not far from brazil or ecuador , we are just near to the borders of brazil, we can go by boat.
i see many of the information is wrong in internet, this chaliponga is just like the psichrotya species, we have the viridis, brachypoda/colorata, carthagenensis, and many more described by local people with other names.
peace
Alberto
Whatever it is it isn't Diplopterys cabrerana. That is a fact. It cannoty be Diplopterys cabrerana because it does not bear seed with ruffled samaras.
So call it "chaliponga", call it "Chacruna" call it "DMT bearing vine" but you absolutely must not and cannot call it Diplopterys cabrerana. If you do it is going to lead to a whole new era of misidentification here in the US.
The plant if being called "Diplopterys cabrerana" at any point after this would not only be a misidentifiaction, but a deliberate misrepresentation, which is totally unacceptable.
Please, anyone who brings this plant to market in the US, please do not ever refer to it as D. cab. It woukld be fine to call it "Chaliponga", but only if you actually used the quote tags and a description explaining that this is a plant, which although not Being D. cabrerana, is referred to as chaliponga by the Shipbo people. I apologize for misspelling that. I am sure someone will correct that error. :P
Stop referring to it as D. cab (which is a scientific designation that does not fit this plant) and start referring to it as "Chaliponga". I am not sure if I will come across as clearly as I would like by saying it should be called quotation chaliponga end quotation, but I have done the best I can do for the moment and hopefully another member will be able to put into terms more easily understood by non-English-as-a-first-language-speaking peoples.
It's not D. cab. It CANNOT be D. cab. That I hope I am clear on.
It is actually very important that we are picky about this, even if it comes across as beating a dead horse.
Iam still very interested in acquiring this plant myself. It is definiitely a plant of great interest!
Hi, vajrapirate thank you for your searching but you are putting me in big confusion, i am growing these vines in my land, i've been told by many of my braziian friends that thi is DC incuding my botanist friend, the plant is very active no doubt about that, i grow this vine because i believe is a real DC.
i have shippded the incense leaves to friends in US and have recieved no regrets
can you show clear photos? i will contact my friend in brazil to attach me pictures, they say to me is the same plant they brew there.
more info please?
namaste
Alberto
Alfonso - First I just want to make clear that I do not think that either you or AJ are intentionally misrepresenting your plant as something it is not.
Okay, that said, go to the second link that I posted and you will see (after some searching through it) that the botanists at harvard (a very prestigious US school) have identifired D. cab as having a 'ruffled' samara, or wing. That, and other references to it having a ruffled samara are what I am basing my posts on.
In fact, the only references I have seen to the shape of the seed of D. cab are to ruffled wings attached to a single seed.
That link is full of english scientific terms which can be hard for even us native english speakers to decipher, just as a warning.
I don't think at all that you or AJ are lying about the plant. I just cannot accept a plant bearing flat winged seeds as D. cab after what I have read and researched in the past week. I know it may be hard to accept that I think my one week of research negates what is essentially generations of local history of the shamans you are currently or were previously working with, but I would not state it as fact if I were not absolutely convinced of it being absolutely true.
I also own a small business that deals in locating, identifying, propagating and selling of ethnobotanical plants. A mistake that big on my part would definitely cause my customers present past and future to doubt my knowledge and abilities. I would not want that at all!
Namaste.
Irie,
Well I'd like to thank AJ for the opportunity to grow out this plant, whatever it turns out to be!
Do you have a photo of the other type vine, that I guess my seeds are from???
I will do my best to do a grow log for it, so all can see how they progress....
The Caapi seeds in the "U.T." package???
Are they Caapi "Red" strain???
I'll also do a grow log of the strain you've sent.
"Yellow, Black, White & Red(?)"
Respect
Z
hey, vajrapirate i understand you, i would be the same if i was going to adquire this plant, but i can tell you for sure and from my brazilian friends that this is the same DC they have there, but to take the benefit of the doubt i will go take very close pictures of the seeds forming, i am sure i've seen they have ruffle samara wings attached to a single seed but i doubt this grow from the single seed, this grows from wings nut site similar to growing b.caapi, also i will post photos of the other strain of chaliponga growing here, but this one is very difficult to see flower or seed.
if you go to ayahuascaforum.com we posted the same picture there in conection and events, and our good friend druiddream who is an old menber of this forum and actual lover of DC vine he has recognized our vine as DC, i apreciate your ecourage vajrapirate, do not worry i am sure A.J is able to supply the right plant for you but let's keep searching until doubts are clear.
peace
Alberto
This may seem like an obvious question but if this plant is equivalent to psychotria viridis then why not just work with p viridis? Yes, it's nice to have a new plant with similar properties but if it's not dramatically different then i don't see what the big deal is. A lot of mythology gets built up around things. Lets get the new plant established here and then we can calmly discuss it. People are going to be disappointed when they are led to believe something is magical and find out it's interesting but ordinary.
vajrapirate ok friend, you know that seeds are those that presented below according to our research to Albert, this is the plant you a lot of talk and much respect to Chaliponga!
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7436/img5092e.jpg)
chaliponga seeds
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/899/img5099b.jpg)
chaliponga seeds
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1084/img5103u.jpg)
chaliponga plants
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1972/img5102w.jpg)
seeds chaliponga
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2227/img5095p.jpg)
chaliponga seeds
(//http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/5867/img5093m.jpg)
seeds
ayahuasca-juorney
:bconf: :bangry: :smoke1
O.K here are the pictures of the other strain of DC growing here, we have been lucky to find a vine seedling in the botanical farm though this was very difficult to seed.
this might be the chali that vajrapirate was talking about because we do not know other strain of vines used by curanderos called chaliponga here, we are showing you both strains of these magic plants, thanks AJ for providing the camera and his precious time, the magic is always there, the plants will be always magical.
namaste
Alberto
amazing plants, and very beautiful! Thanks a-j! :e_smile:
Irie,
Well thanks guy's for all the great photos.....We always would like to see more from your area.
Now this plant pictured above!
I have two of these growing, from the seeds you sent me last time!
At the time it was labeled "Cat's Claw".
My plants have just started stretching, one up a avocado tree, the other up a mango...
I had been wondering if it was CC cause I hadn't seen any claws yet?
The young leaves seem to be a little furry, with silvery hair.
[attachment=0:29sxvmwu]DSCN3120a.JPG[/attachment:29sxvmwu]
I did some research in to this plant and found this plant that has similar seeds!
//http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/vrrc/max/MALP-masc-anis-per-1917488.jpg
Respect
Z
Zaka, that is a beautiful healthy DC plant AJ has sent you the seeds as a confusion as UT cat's claw but this is a chaliponga.
we helped AJ in clasification and identification of plant/seed so i bet there would NOT be more confusions.
peace
Alberto
Quote from: "therealsanango"Zaka, that is a beautiful healthy DC plant AJ has sent you the seeds as a confusion as UT cat's claw but this is a chaliponga.
we helped AJ in clasification and identification of plant/seed so i bet there would NOT be more confusions.
peace
Alberto
Irie Alberto,
Great, You can not believe how pleased I am! & I have TWO plants!
I'm sure we can nail down an exact classification for this plant.
Have a look at this Diplopterys that grows in your area;
//http://sweetgum.nybg.org/vh/specimen.php?irn=509106
The fruit are looking the same!
Respect
Z
well I apologize to my friend zaka, the confusion in the seeds that send in their first time under the name Cat's Claw, you now have two beautiful zaka Chaliponga plants, maybe this is going to give at any time the identification of plants ... the good thing is that all this confusion is being cleared and there is good plant that everyone wants and they want "Chaliponga" We had to wait floreciemiento of all plants to reach a good conclusion and a very good true with respect to the plant?
ayahuasca-journey
:blaugh: :blaugh:
Zaka, the plant look similar except for the leaves, the leaves on the picture you show is too rounded similar to b.caapi leaves, the leaves from our vine is sharp pointed more narrow, i am showing both types of chaliponga that we use here in this part of the amazon for brewing.
i do not know of any other strain of chaliponga.
peace
Alberto
Hi, and i just wanted to say that we are not located in san martin- tarapoto, this is far from our location, zaka we are located in the ucayali region, we are very near iquitos, the plant that you show in the picture might not grow in our area, as the location says tarapoto peru and this is far from us.
peace
Alberto
Irie,
The leaves look the same to me!
Can you comment on the silveryness of the new leaf growth?
Here's a couple of Caapi leaves from my garden, two different plants both Cielo strain.
[attachment=0:2lejdz4f]DSCN3126a.JPG[/attachment:2lejdz4f]
Just to show the variations within a strain.
The chaliponga leaves are slightly narrower than the narrowest Caapi.
I take a photo to compare tomorrow.
Respect
Z
the silveryness is only when the leaf is very young, then when is mature it changes, b.caapi leaves have 2 spots yellow color down under the bottom of its leaf, and chaliponga doesn't present this yellow spots.
peace
Alberto
Quote from: "therealsanango"the silveryness is only when the leaf is very young, then when is mature it changes, b.caapi leaves have 2 spots yellow color down under the bottom of its leaf, and chaliponga doesn't present this yellow spots.
peace
Alberto
Irie Alberto,
That's good to know.
I've also noticed the yellow spots on the Caapi leaf.
Your area looks very interesting (from the google sat) would love to come and visit one day!
Respect
Z
Zaka ok friend, you will be invited, when I finish up my botanical garden of rare plants and ethnobotany and my sweet lodge for all members of spiritplant all free, except air tickets, soon be uploading photos of the progress ...
some pics of harvested seeds
(//http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/407/dcseeds.jpg)
chaliponga seeds
(//http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7336/85316113.jpg)
bag containing 1000 seeds
harvest date: 08/10/2010
ayahuasca-journey
:D :D :e_wink:
Quote from: "therealsanango"the silveryness is only when the leaf is very young, then when is mature it changes, b.caapi leaves have 2 spots yellow color down under the bottom of its leaf, and chaliponga doesn't present this yellow spots.
peace
Alberto
Alberto, can you show us a photo of caapi with these 2 yellow spots? Are they easy to see and are they present on each leaf? And is it 2 each time?
o.k,
Stoney friend here are some photos where you can see very good 2 yellow spots? of caapi
(//http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1268/33895073.jpg)
(//http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8176/39364328.jpg)
(//http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/9061/55547675.jpg)
a-j
:e_wink:
o.k the spots remain always there, when is red caapi the spots look kind of orange when is black caapi it looks yellow but you can tell the difference from the vine shape and color.
i've been searching the properties of the madre aya for many years.
if you have any doubt guys just ask me, caapi will always present the spots.
peace
Alberto
Irie,
Some shots of the furry leaves....
[attachment=2:30mrk5ib]DSCN3359a.JPG[/attachment:30mrk5ib]
[attachment=1:30mrk5ib]DSCN3363A.JPG[/attachment:30mrk5ib]
[attachment=0:30mrk5ib]DSCN3365a.JPG[/attachment:30mrk5ib]
Respect
Z
Irie,
A couple more..
[attachment=1:34sm6dru]DSCN3379a.JPG[/attachment:34sm6dru]
[attachment=0:34sm6dru]DSCN3381a.JPG[/attachment:34sm6dru]
Respect
Z
Has anyone had a chance to test to see the alkaloid spectrum?
D. cabarena has 5meo dmt as a metabolite. An alcohol extract of p. Viridis would be a good sample or dmt, and comparing it to an extract of this plant to see if there is one alkloid or two should be pretty easy. Indole alkaloids are UV reactive, so this would take some bulk silica gel packets, ethanol, a blacklight, and some microscope slides. It might even be possable to do with paper TLC.
If there is any interest, I can provide much more detailed information.
Edited for clarity
PS the presence if 5meo would make this quite a valuable plant, bc a traditional source of this drug is very much in need. The analogue plants cannot compare to the history of actual use!
Alberto, yes, i saw the little yellow or orange dots at the base of my leaves shortly after i posted my question. Your photos show them quite well. Not every leaf has them and some have only 1 which is odd. I was looking for spots right on the leaf and this is more on the stem. I also noticed that the young leaves have a silvery look which seems to be from very short fuzz.
Zaka, i see a wrinkling in the surface of the leaves which i could not see in other photos. But it doesn't look like fur to me. In a couple photos it looks like some silvery dust on them but in the closeups it looks like wrinkled leaf surface. There does seem to be a color difference. The fuzz on the young leaves that makes them silvery on my plants is so short i'm not even sure it's fuzz. It might be just a color difference. I should examine them under a microscope.
Zaka, brother you should harvest a few leaves when is ready to pick up and try it out , with chaliponga you do not need to many leaves as with p.v to create a lovely incense.
Alberto
Hi, the shiness and what you call fur is also presence in the very young b.caapi leaves, just have close look on your b.caapi plants as well to the chali, this is the reason its been clasified as banisteriopsis rusbyana then clasified into DC.
namaste
Alberto
Quote from: "therealsanango"Zaka, brother you should harvest a few leaves when is ready to pick up and try it out , with chaliponga you do not need to many leaves as with p.v to create a lovely incense.
Alberto
Irie Al,
Just wanted to find out what the traditional amount of leaves that are used?
Both my plants are doing well and stretching for the tree tops!
Respect
Z