So, I think this is pretty heavy stuff really, so stop here if your just not that interested....
This friend of mine is a otherwise healthy young male adult, but mentally he's a wreck. He's a conspiracy freak, anxiety ridden, 2 strikes out (in a legal sense), son of a suicide with 2 kids by two different mothers, has had one complete psychic break already and other assorted worries and completely refuses any perscription cures. I'm mostly worried about his obsessive attention towards conspiracy more than anything though. Stuff like contrails, one world government, mind controll, 911conspiracy exc. it borders on psychosis. His fits of anxiety and/or depression rooted in his mothers suicide and his past dealings and his own thoughts of suicide he seems to handle o.k. with a little help and reassurance, but ellaborate dillusion in conspiracy has got a meen grip on him. There is no reasoning with him, he's too well read. Any ideas? Am I the one who is dillusional? I looked up contrails, it's all a bunch of whooey.
This is a tough one, anj. Not much you can do, imo. Maybe make sure he has laid out what to do with the kids if/when anything happens to the guy.
lw
Yeah, it's a tough nut. I won't give up on him, thats the important thing. It's just hard compete with conspiracy. It's a virus. Yah every watch zeitgeist?. check it on utube, if interested. pretty convincing, but only in the inflamed language it uses.
Right on, anj.
Sounds like the guy maybe has borderline personality disorder. I have a brother in law who prolly has the same thing but will not go to a doctor. However, my in-law isn't intelligent enough to formulate major conspiracy theories. Rather, he worries about personal attacks and robbers entering his father's house where he also lives.
It is a fine line for a friend to walk, between enabling/encouraging the guys delusions and trying to set him straight. Push ot hard, and you are part of the conspiracy. Don't push enough and you might feel responsible if/when he goes off the deep end at a later date.
Good luck bro. Just remember to not let the guy take you with him on his final ride......
lw
ANyway, anj, the guy appears to be in need of some serious grounding. Maybe talking him into spending more quality time with his children would help. Sounds like he needs to be investing in his children's emotional future. That should also help his mental state. maybe.
lw
Irie Ave,
Well try listening to him......Maybe he's right?
Contrails=Global Geo Terraforming
one world government,=Where have you been? It's all over the Mass media now! Just wait for the one world currency. Even the Pope has called for it!
mind control=TV, if you still watch it, your still under the spell!
911conspiracy= I guess you are talking about alternative versions to the really weak Government version....Let just say I don't buy it! 3 building, freefall collapse, 2 planes = BS
I think that it must be really frustrating for your mate trying to wake you up!
Tell him to sit down and watch Obama Deception with you.....
Then question your own sanity!
Respect
Z
Quote Zaka (Well try listening to him......Maybe he's right)
Yeah, he sent me a link to the obama deception, I haven't gotten around to watching it yet, nor am I terribly interested in getting that deep in the rabbit hole. it just seems like alot of excess worry, when he has got bigger fish to fry in his own life and global conspiracy makes him feal even more powerless. It haunts him. His only grounding rod is his kids and friends and as lw suggested, I try to focus on that with him.
Again with the contrails, the best lies are made up of mostly truths.... but it's all bullshit.... just convincing enough to rope even moderately intelligent people in. and I suspect the same with most of that other stuff. Movies like zietgiest and most likely the obamma deception, don't offer any credible counter argument that displace their own theorys and are theirfore suspect imo (edit-and are full of deceptive, manipulative and inflaming language). It's just one step removed to him thinking they are actually out to get him.....
and even if some conspiracy stuff is allarmingly right on, I can't condone enabling him in his beliefs. It rots him and he is not in a position to do anything about it, nor is it what he should be focusing on. I just wish their was a way to break him of the habbit.......... not that I'm one to judge, mind you. I'm just regularly thrust into the role as his pier and I see nothing but destruction down that avenue of thought..... some people you just can't derail.
also I don't think joining him in his dillusion would help either of us. Those kind of complex pictures are like heroin to me (I'm a little obsessive compulsive), I'm just smart enought to stay on more productive avenues of thought/research.......well, for the most part..
Irie Ave,
Damn It must be frustrating for your mate. He's given you leads that you seem to skeptic to look at.
If you stand on the outside of the rabbit hole and assume that the warren is full of rabbits...But he tells you take a look..it's full of weasels. And you stand on the outside & say I can't see any weasels! You must be crazy! Not very fair on your mate.
Contrails....3 years ago Mainstream Media(MM) said that it was just water vapor( Chemtrails don't exist)....2 years ago heavy metal particles are found in it....MM it doesn't exist!......Less than 1 year ago MM comes out with "Oh yes we are doing it, it for the climate.......Doesn't that trouble you at all?
He's in a position to WAKE YOU UP!
Please do him the decency of watching the movie.....
//http://www.documentarywire.com/category/video
If you look through this site you'll find it plus info on Chemtrails..
Don't take any of it for granted....research it all....then try and pick holes.......There are some but when you realize that more often than not it all fits into the puzzle.
Highly recommend you watch "Endgame" You'll then wonder if they aren't out to get YOU too!
Respect
Z
THanks for lending perspective Zaka...... I'll give it some more thought.
a~
As per the contrails, it's all just too ellaborate. It's just too complex in the number of cross cultural people that would have to be involved in logistics and manufacture and distribution and engineering exc. Theirs just no way it could be kept so well guarded a secret. And wouldn't the people involved and their children be effected as well? It's too big, it doesn't hold water imo.
Quote from: "Avery L. Breath"As per the contrails, it's all just too ellaborate. It's just too complex in the number of cross cultural people that would have to be involved in logistics and manufacture and distribution and engineering exc. Theirs just no way it could be kept so well guarded a secret. And wouldn't the people involved and their children be effected as well? It's too big, it doesn't hold water imo.
Irie Ave,
Go look at the evidence, then discuss it.
They now admit it !
They also say fluoride is good for you. And mercury in the shot actually help you??
Respect
Z
Well, I've yet to find conclusive evidence of the chemtrail conspiracy theory. Care to provide a link or two?
lw
Quote from: "Avery L. Breath"Again with the contrails, the best lies are made up of mostly truths.... but it's all bullshit.... just convincing enough to rope even moderately intelligent people in.
Well, maybe, but I don't know about that. I know folks who believe in chemtrails, but I'd be hard pressed to qualify them as intelligent. Most of those folks don't even know the difference between evidence and movies, and somewhat ironically decry anyone who disagrees with them as close minded. I don't think someone with moderate intelligence would miss that irony :)
Irie,
Don't worry, it's just water vapor.
Chemicals! They'd never do anything like that!
//http://acrf-campaign.arm.gov/isdac/
//http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap2-3/final-report/default.htm
//http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11572945/
//http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/01/climatechange.scienceofclimatechange2
//http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/01/climatechange.endangeredhabitats
Oh OK Yeah We've been doing it for years, but it's good for you! Don't ya know?
Dig deeper guy's!
Respect
Z
Quote from: "Zaka"Don't worry, it's just water vapor.
Chemicals! They'd never do anything like that!
...
Oh OK Yeah We've been doing it for years, but it's good for you! Don't ya know?
Dig deeper guy's!
Respect
Sarcasm isn't particularly "respectful," so you may want to edit your post, removing one or the other.
zaka: I just read your linked info and think you are full of shit. There is absolutely no proof of the chemtrails for which you report to have linked evidence, imo. Weak, mon. And your posts above are disrespectful to boot.
Respect.
lw
Irie,
I don't understand? What disrespect? Was it the weasels?? OTT! Sorry, None intended.
Well if you don't want to look in to it, fine.
MM tell the masses take the vaccinations, Fluoride isn't poison and weed is a deadly drug which will kill you if you smoke it!
Believe what you want....I'm with Aves mate
Respect
Z
Quote from: "laughingwillow"zaka: I just read your linked info and think you are full of shit. There is absolutely no proof of the chemtrails for which you report to have linked evidence, imo. Weak, mon. And your posts above are disrespectful to boot.
Respect.
lw
Irie,
So telling me I'm full of shit ain't disrespectful...?
Did you not see them handy little aerosol cans under the wings?
Respect
Z
LOL Telling you that you are full as shit was just as disrespectful as the names you called the non believers above. But you noticed my disrespect and didn't see your own, imo.
Btw, the photos prove nothing, imo. I see a photo of a plane's wing and the caption explains we are looking at sensing devices, not aerosol dispensers.
Here is the caption of the photo in question... Using instrumented aircraft, the ISDAC field campaign obtained aerosol and cloud property measurements from the sky above the ARM Climate Research Facility site in Barrow, Alaska.
lw
Quote from: "laughingwillow"LOL Telling you that you are full as shit was just as disrespectful as the names you called the non believers above. But you noticed my disrespect and didn't see your own, imo.
Irie,
Went back! Still couldn't find it? Give me the quote.
I took this from David Ickes site,
All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridicule. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self-evident."
-- Schoephouer
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
-- Winston Churchill
Respect
Z
Aside that contrails are/are'nt to believed...I believe the young man Av is speaking of has more "rabbits in his warren" than just this one.
Sounds like he may be bordering on the paranoid/schizo tip.
If he's that deep in...hopefully he only gets an intervention by mental health professionals and not the law.
lizzy:Doh! You just blew that theory of mine. I thought anj was maybe talking about YOU hahaahhaah! j/k
lw
Quote from: "LizJah"Aside that contrails are/are'nt to believed...I believe the young man Av is speaking of has more "rabbits in his warren" than just this one.
Irie,
Lets get it right...They're not rabbits, they're weasels!.....and yes there is more than one!
Take a look, careful they don't bite your nose off.
Medication my ass!
Do me a favor, start by researching Fluoride and tells us what you find!
Respect
Z
Quote from: "Zaka"I think that it must be really frustrating for your mate trying to wake you up!
Tell him to sit down and watch Obama Deception with you.....
Then question your own sanity!
Respect
Z
Allow me to translate..... Even though you, anj, are a health care professional/psychonaut with experience in matters psychological, I choose to believe the problem outlined above with your friend's mental health issues is really YOUR problem. Please allow him to guide you through this, your time of need. PS: If you don't agree with me and your friend, you're insane.
lw
You can see what I'm up against. everybody screaming wake up, from all sides, with nothing really firm to bite into. Is no wonder why I resist scratching the surface deeper than something tame like contrails. How can I save a friend from a plight that he wants to save me from pulling in the other direction?.... other than to join in the fray...
I just don't want to get the sickness (or cure.... whatever). I'd rather chop wood and carry water......... theirs just my friends mental health to consider.
I can see why he grasps it all so readily, but it's just not helping him.
(edit- and zaka, I totally see your point. leading a horse to water exc., you want people to wake up! but I don't want to drink fouled water. I totally sympathize. It's so ellaborate how it all fits together...... and their in lies a crux.)
And Thank you LW, for your voice on this matter..... have always appreciated your perspective.
Chop and carry, bruddah......
lw
I like to chop and carry too. But I don't think that learning about the social/biological engineering being perpetrated upon modern society necessarily detracts from this dharma.
There's nothing wrong imo with ignoring the current craziness in the world scene, but I also don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with being aware of it. Sure, don't get all obsessive about it, but really, what's the harm with noticing the activities of criminals that manipulate the very realities we must swim in? Given the current craziness, I actually find knowing about the perpetrators and their activities to be personally grounding.
Knowing about it doesn't have to make you crazy. (Hey, I heard that! ;))
I brought up chemtrails on this board many years ago, to see what the consensus was. People here were negative to the idea, so I dropped it. But I kept an eye on the issue, and over the years, I have seen more and more evidence that this is indeed happening.
As for 9/11, personally I am just super amazed that folks fall for the official lies published about the WTC events. Once I witnessed the buildings fall that day, I knew they were brought down by explosives. It's so obvious. Now that Thermate and iron nanospheres have been found in the dust, along with other evidences, it's clear to me at least that incendiary explosives were used in the buildings. There is really no other explanation for the molten pool under the building sites, that kept burning for a couple months after the event.
Cognitive dissonance is a human psychological trait that arises when new, challenging info enters a mind locked into a set paradigm. The person then must perform all manner of mental gymnastics of an illogical nature in order to reconcile the new data, or simply to lapse back into the "safer" paradigm already in place. Victims of cult programming deal with this daily.
Americans in general cannot deal with the reality that the top levels of the US Gov't. have been usurped by a cabal of foreign and domestic bankers. So they fall back into the easy myths they were taught in elementary school, about freedom and the constitution and the inherent goodness of the American system. Very hard conditioning for some to deal with.
I would rather know the truth, but I am very blunt that way, and as I have always been a social skeptic, I am not much bothered by it. I don't like the horrorshow, but there it is. To me, it's just a part of maya's dance.
Attraction and repulsion are both attachment.
The grand wheel of dharma and karma turns above the Tibetan plateau, doling out the scenes and acts in the proper way.
well said Dendro.
Irie,
Dendro sums it up best.
As for Chemtrails, I didn't throw you down the rabbit hole, just skimmed the surface, you are the one who need to dig deeper, if you can handle it! Alex Jones next movie deals with Chemtrails. It's out in Oct '09.
Come on all you doubters....Did any of you watch the movie?
I watched again last night, for the 5-6th time.
It's funny, cos it's not really about Obama.......Popular misconception.
It's more about the Banksters behind it all.
Quote from: "laughingwillow"Quote from: "Zaka"I think that it must be really frustrating for your mate trying to wake you up!
Tell him to sit down and watch Obama Deception with you.....
Then question your own sanity!
Respect
Z
Allow me to translate..... Even though you, anj, are a health care professional/psychonaut with experience in matters psychological, I choose to believe the problem outlined above with your friend's mental health issues is really YOUR problem. Please allow him to guide you through this, your time of need. PS: If you don't agree with me and your friend, you're insane.
lw
LW, Don't think what I wrote needed translating. Feel like I'm dealing with me Ex! :bangry:
Did you look up Fluoride? I think people who put it in their bodies are crazy. But if you don't know about it then, you would believe that I was crazy! Cool. No problem.
Like Dendro, I want to know the truth, even if it is shocking.
Hey but if blissful ignorance is your bag, then more strength to you!
Sounds like Ave is exactly the type of health care professional we need to wake up....when you get further down the rabbit hole....you'll question all the "education", you've received...like so many other health care professional.
Respect
Z
quote zaka: Hey but if blissful ignorance is your bag, then more strength to you!
Fuck you, moron. This is a thread started by someone who is worried about their friend's mental health due to his inability to function due to obsessive/compulsive behavior. Btw, I translated your quote above after you continued to ask for an example of you being disrespectful to the original poster.
lw
Quote from: "laughingwillow"Fuck you, moron. lw
Irie,
I do love intellectual discourse! :bravo
This is a thread started by someone who is worried about their friend's mental health due to his inability to function due to obsessive/compulsive behavior.
To quote Dendro
QuoteCognitive dissonance is a human psychological trait that arises when new, challenging info enters a mind locked into a set paradigm.
QuoteBtw, I translated your quote above after you continued to ask for an example of you being disrespectful to the original poster.
Yeah the Ex used to do that...claims that in her understanding, I told her the sky was green!
Still looking for something Eh!
Well do what the ex used to do and drag up something I said 10 yrs ago...and stick that in my mouth!
Respect :cool2
Z
grr. I wrote a response an the page f'ed up. Second writings aren't ever as good.
Man LW your out of line...
Its a complicated issue with your friend. He obviously has some mental issues that he's compounding by being obsessed with conspiracy theories. Its hard because even though conspiracy theories are theories, they're a symptom of the fact that we live in a government that is secretive. The cold war and fear of total annihilation put power in the hands of a few to "protect" the general public. I can't imagine there aren't cost benefit analyses carried out by these people that have undesirable costs they would rather not divulge to the populace. While I don't personally believe in chemtrails I wouldn't be surprised if they existed. While I find it hard to believe they would spray chemicals to make us docile, or any other desired effect. Its not beyond my realm of logic to think that those seriously realizing the possibly catastrophic climate change we're facing wouldn't spray aerosols to buy us a bit more time. The U.S. IS the world military leader. The entire purpose of military is to unfurl large operations secretively. Its hard to believe what tey couldn't accomplish.
There is an aspect of truth to it, because there is social engineering. I'll catch flak for this, but if your male, look at your penis. If your circumcised your the direct or indirect (depending on your age) result of propoganda to make cleaner soldiers for a WWIII that never materialized. Social engineering does exist, it CAN be right under our noses and completely ignored. You/i were expected to be warriors.
Again i'll catch flak for that, but ya dig a bit deeper.
We are under the control of some powerful entities. I personally don't think they are completely in cahoots and utterly organized the way conspiracy theorists have it portrayed. But there are certainly groups, whether they be military, business, banking, that have the power to (at least try) to steer the world in a direction they would like it. I'm sure they're not completely malevolent in intent and I think thats might be what gives them the power to be so secretive. In the cost benefit analysis they find that unfurling this program or that is beneficial in the long run, even if a minority or even a majority are disadvantaged now.
It sucks because it probably isn't as bad as your friend thinks it is, but it still is pretty bad, and there is always something to get sucked into.
But lets not curse each other for talking about, really.
Quoteyou are the one who need to dig deeper, if you can handle it! Alex Jones next movie deals with Chemtrails.
It's in a movie?
It must be true.
Quote from: "Zaka"Lets get it right...They're not rabbits, they're weasels!.....and yes there is more than one!
Take a look, careful they don't bite your nose off.
Medication my ass!
Do me a favor, start by researching Fluoride and tells us what you find!
So, let me get this straight. The chemtrails are how the evil overlords get fluorine clandestinely into the water?
Pure brilliance on their part, in an evil overlord kind of way. But that leads to the question: I wonder what's in the fluorine tanks at the water plants????!!!!!??????!?!!!!?!?!?!
Here's the bottom line, imo.....
Andy started a thread in which he expressed concern for a friend's mental health. Apparently the guy has been virtually unable to function due to obsessive/compulsive/paranoid behavior. The object of dude's obsessions are not the issue. Andy has not accused anyone who buys into the conspiracy theories mentioned above as being insane. Rather, he is concerned with a particular friend's erratic/paranoid/irrational behavior and what might happen to him regarding trouble with the law/suicide or alienation of affection from his children due to his erratic behavior.
The advice I gave to Andy above is sound whether the conspiracy theories are valid or not, imo. I think the guy is in need of some serious grounding.
Rereading the thread, I don't see a lot of constructive ideas thrown out. Especially from those who decided to make the conspiracy theories the main topic of their replies.
lw
This thread got highjacked IMO.
In my experience with "mentally interesting" peopel(and I have been one and known quite a few) there is no way you are gonna reason him out of this. I think we find something to hang our mental turmoil on. It could be friends, a spouse, conspiracies, it makes no difference. it's just some way to explain the anxiety, to justify it. People become very invested in their problems.
Bingo! Yah hit the proverbial nail on the head Joe. That was the thought that was escaping me, it all makes a little more sense.
As to the thread hijacking and stuff, I'd like to note for the record, I was never offended or anything by zaka's comments...... didn't even cross the radar. I tend to think I take where a persons coming from into account and all he was attempting to do was help via his perspective and maybe even attempting to keap it light, in a easy going humorous sense.... after all he seems to be read up on the subject and wanted to share. He meant no offense, however I'm sure he felt uneccisarily provoked as well. Irie Zaka!
Also, as to LW, I think he did percieve some offenses toward me and came to my defense and I appreciate that as well....... I don't think you can fault a guy for that, other than perhaps in response, style points. (I've been known to tear it up around here sometimes as well.) Also, he seemed to be the only one to give me constructive advice up to these last couple of posts (and what dendro wrote) in this entire thread. (What the!) So thanks again LW. You recognized early that the issue wasn't about "conspiracy", I just needed advice in reguards to my friend. I could give a flying fart about conspiracy........ although another thread perhaps would be worth following on the subject.
A~
LW, I disagree that zaka's advice is not constructive. I think it is just as valid as the advice you gave, LW.
Listening to this man, as advised by zaka, is a possible therapy for him. As in the thrust of the advice I gave, perhaps he can gain some perspective on his fears. A key question might be, given the reality of world conspiracy, what can realistically be done about it? How best to protect himself and his family from the consequences? If he could find some perspective, perhaps he could form a plan to deal with the reality he sees, iow to deal with world conspiracy in a healthier way, one that gives him some peace, comfort or security.
"It is a fine line for a friend to walk, between enabling/encouraging the guys delusions and trying to set him straight. Push ot hard, and you are part of the conspiracy. Don't push enough and you might feel responsible if/when he goes off the deep end at a later date."
Why push at all? If the conspiracies are not the issue, as JRL says, then allow the obsession, and guide towards a saner, less fear-driven response to it.
I doubt you will help him by telling him he is delusional.
BTW, zaka, I don't read your posts as disrespectful.
Avery posted while I was writing my last post, good one...
I don't think the thread got hijacked. I think that, given the content of the OP, all subsequent posts were on topic. They may not all have dealt with the crux of the problem presented, but they were on topic. That's the nature of such boards.
Cool & Irie,
So to quote Ave;
Quoteellaborate dillusion in conspiracy has got a meen grip on him. There is no reasoning with him, he's too well read. Any ideas?
I wonder what you meant by too well read?
And what if he is right? Like you say ;
QuoteAm I the one who is dillusional?
I always research everything I can, take nothing for granted ...no it's not obsessive....but I do like to get to the truth of a matter.
I strongly encourage you to take him a little more seriously.
Ask him to go through the Fluoride issue with you....This was my first awakening.....tip of the burg!
Respect & good luck
Z
Yeah, I picked up what your laying down zaka.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejc8Uxe0kW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejc8Uxe0kW0)
"Unicorns ARE real!"
Lizzy
Oh, there you go, lizzy-mon. Great vid link. LOL
lw
I'm glad the unicorns all love me.
Unicorns! I love you!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: