Hi All,
New to this forum...
Like what I've read so far....
Got an interesting question here;
I just found out that some indian tribe used the orchid Oncinum Ceboletta.
Any one have any info on this.
I've got bunches of Ceboletta but never look at them in that light before!
How would one determine dosage?
Preparation?
Any thoughts
Respect
Zaka
A MOST INTERESTING SUBJECT, INDEEEED!
All we know is it's a "Peyote-subsitute"...
All we can do is get the plant, cultivate it and experiment with it!
Seriously!
:mrgreen:
Irie Teotz,
As I say I have in abundance....
Any suggestion on ingestion?
I was thinking of a whole leaf fresh tea.......rekkon I should boil it down a bit or what?
What's the prep for peyote?
Respect
Z
Are you sure the alkaloids are found in the leaves? (I have no idea.) But the goods could be in the roots, no?
lw
Are we talking about this - Oncidium ceboletta aka - Hikuri Orchid?
Doesn't seem to be much information out there on it....
QuoteWhat's the prep for peyote?
Is that really even relevant here? Peyote and Hikuri orchid aren't of the same species so they likely will have an entirely different chemical makeup.
Certainly would be great to get more info but please be very careful if sampling.
Welcome to the forums Zaka! 8)
I've heard about this one but it's supposed to be rare, expensive if you ever found it, and hard to grow. If you are looking for a peyote substitute, try san pedro.
It's always important to experiment with these things! could be something totally new!
I would try a simple hot water infusion of the cleaned and dried roots if I was you, start low, be careful!!!
Irie
Not rare around here and free. Even have pods after they flower, though they are not in flower right now, not for a couple of months.
I know it was introduced on the island by the Amerindian Arawaks.
I have been wondering what they were using.....maybe this explains why they travelled up the islands with it.
I think I'll have to give this one a try. There's just too little information on it. Not really looking for heights, more curiosity and Entheo study ......Hey maybe another candidate for banned substances!
I'll try a tea with the whole plants........Caution always.....I'll start with a infusion and see how that goes....Then maybe stew it up good, if nothing happens...
Maybe add a little Justicia Pectoralis for flavour.....also a plant with historic use with the Amerindian..
If I get chance this weekend..........I'll let you all know what happens...
Respect
Z
Did the information on this flower come from Shultes' big glossy book by any chance?
Shultes was an extraordinary ethnobotonist -- that is beyond argument -- but much of the information in that book is misleading at best, sketchy at worst. Many of the plants he lists as "peyote substitutes" are a case in point. They may be a peyote substitute in a ritual sense (giving him the benefit or the doubt), but many aren't in any chemical sense. One need only look at M Smith's wonderful survey of the chemistry of the sacred cacti to see that (does Smith come around here any more?). From a chemical perspective many (most) of the peyote substitutes are inactive, but that hasn't prevented millions of web postings by enthusiastic would-be experimenters!
I'm not saying that the flower isn't active. I'm just asking/speculating...
I always thought the Plants of the Gods was ghost written, it didn't seem to be worhty of the two giants Hoffman and Shultes. What say you Boomer? It does have a lot of nice pictures.
Zaka, where are you located? How can you be sure that what you see is this exact plant? I say this plant should not be exploited for it's dubious drug potential. Teo, your reaction is exactly why so many plants have been hunted to extinction. I agree with Amom about the huge amount of misinformation that has been put out there by some highly respected authors. Much work has been little more than collecting rumors from various tribes and villages and trying to match the rumors and myths with the plants involved. Many plants used in rituals are not psychoactive but the authors seem to assume they are.
Then you have the fact that even if it was psychoactive, for the sake of argument, so what? Who cares if it is when there are so many other plants which are not endangered that we can use. I mentioned san pedro and I'll bet it's as good or better than the orchid but perhaps not pound for pound. Teo, why are you so enthused about this? Because you heard some good buzz? You think this is what will send you to nirvana?
Good point, JRL
It is 'Oncidium ceboletta' and according to C.Ratsch who only makes a passing comment that it is known as Hikuli("peyote") and whether it has psychoactive effects is up to future research.
Be careful though, you do not know if it is posionous or what parts to consume and how etc so proceed with caution. But certaintly worth investigating furthur.
Booshpig
I'm in the Caribbean.
It's the second most prolific orchid here next to E.Ciliare.
Real easy to identify, terete leaves....looks like spring onions.....
Yeah right....woo there Teo......lets not start breaking any cities treaties, just yet....
The point of investigating this further is to ascertain what ancient local shamans had at their disposal.
Much of real history has been covered up under the guise of myths.
Have only experienced peyote once when we ripped some off from Kew Gardens when I was a kid.(c.1980, maybe I'll tell that tale one day)......Not tried San Pedro.....not sure if we have it here.....need to look in to that..Seen some fancy shaped cactus's.
I don't trust too much what scholars, PhDs, or Pharmaceutical companies have to say...I find they usually have an alterer motive.
Don't know the Shulte's book, never seen it.
I will post my experience (when I get to it) in the Shamans Hut.
Posted here first to find out what the Mescal heads have to say.....
Respect
Z
OK Z, that's a reasonable point of view. I'm asking how you can positively ID it since there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of species of orchids. Many of them will look very much alike and even experts can be fooled. Some can only be differentiated by the seeds, some by flowers and some by other methods. Are the locals using it to get high?
San pedro is a very common cactus which would grow well in your area. It likes watering and does not like freezing. Found in s america and elsewhere. It has usually 6 ribs but can have more. I grow it myself
PLEASE HELP US OBTAIN THIS BOTANICALS!
OFFER IT ON THE TRADE BOARDS!
MAIL IT TO MEMBERS!
PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE!
QuoteTeo, your reaction is exactly why so many plants have been hunted to extinction.
Propagate?
QuoteTeo, why are you so enthused about this? Because you heard some good buzz? You think this is what will send you to nirvana?
We should ALWAYS explore new botanicals and the potenital the may hold!!!!
Quote from: "JRL"I always thought the Plants of the Gods was ghost written, it didn't seem to be worhty of the two giants Hoffman and Shultes. What say you Boomer? It does have a lot of nice pictures.
:)
Well, that
is what grad students are for...
(... unfortunately, Shultes' grad students -- Plowman, Davis -- were almost as extraordinary as the teacher.)
Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl"PLEASE HELP US OBTAIN THIS BOTANICALS!
OFFER IT ON THE TRADE BOARDS!
MAIL IT TO MEMBERS!
PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE! PROPAGATE!
Careful there boy, once you get the bill for the exclamation mark tax (not to mention the all-caps surcharge) you're going to be hurtin'
Edit: And I would like to say that while research is good (after all, it is our cultural heritage), it shouldn't be indiscriminant. Discernment is good so that one can focus and actually accomplish something. If you actually had every "rare, unknown plant" that you've screamed for, you would have neither the space to grow them nor the time to investigate them.
Second Edit: And if you're really interested, you should be forwarded that orchids are very challenging plants to grow. If you're serious (which I doubt, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt) you should probably start with the bromeliads. After honing your technique for a year or two (and then perhaps constructing a green-house), maybe then it would be good to move on to orchids.
Are you serious? Do you have the attention span to spend a few years on a plant?
Wicked cool!
Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl"Are you talking to me?
I thought I was, but I'm starting to wonder.
Irie Stoney,
I have so many orchids and can identify all.......some time at running or driving pace I can find them....
It's so easy here, just sling'em in a tree and they go nuts......
Ceboletta have such distinctive leaves you really don't need to see it in flower........The only orchid that could be mistaken for it is B.Cugullata, not in flower, and I've been searching here for years with out finding it.
I'll not going crazy getting all scientific about it, weighing and measuring stuff. WIGIT that's my moto....Let the spirit guide.
I'll try to take some photo's...
Nice Cactus's Theo.........Gotta get round to putting a cactus garden together.........soon
Respect
Z
Z, that's very interesting. I ask again, are the locals using it for recreational purposes and have you tried it since you are so familiar with it?
Irie Stoney,
No mate no one here knows of it....
Not traditionally used....
But the people here are mostly ignorant about their heritage, much of it has been lost.
Mostly budheads here.........most don't even know or use shooms.....Respect
Z
We should not shoot down Teo's enthusiasm, but maybe help direct him to be be successful in his research ?
My advice Teo is to get a specimen if you can, be very careful about consumption, as there may be dangers of toxicity.
And hold back on the rants for everyone to propogate it, as at present nobody knows of its virtues or lack of. Let us know how you get on Teo
Boooshpig
Let us know how it goes!
AND SEND US SOME PLANTS/SEEDS!!!
Seeing that Christian Ratsch is a co-author of the revised and expanded Plants of the Gods (http://www.amazon.com/Plants-Gods-Sacre ... 0892819790 (http://www.amazon.com/Plants-Gods-Sacred-Healing-Hallucinogenic/dp/0892819790)) I have always suspected he was the "ghost author" of the original, as clearly the original wasn't to the standards of publications by either Schultes or Hofmann. For some reason I don't have Ratsches encylopedia book, but I wonder if it mentions anythink else about O. ceboletta. The original reference comes from one of Schultes' Harvard Botanical Letters.
O. ceboletta my be considered a replacement for the "true hikuri," but that doesn't indicate what use of the original it is replacing. Seeing that hikuri has a multitude of uses it may be purely medicinal and as a salve for all we know. Any comments in the literature about the plant being a hikuri fail to say anything about its use, much less its use specifically as an entheogen to alter consciousness. I'd be very cautious about the use of the plant being there is a good work-up on its full range of constituents.
As for growing it, by all means, but I do believe it is commonly used as a hybrid parent, and if that is the case then you may not be getting the same genetics as the one in the territory of the Tarahumara, in fact, this is such a widespread plant throughout the Americas you really should try to find imports from southwwestern Chihuahua, Mexico.
Good luck,
~Michael~
I would taste the plant, the flowers, the seeds, the pods, the roots, the stems, the leaves, etc. Are any of the bitter? What other tastes, if they are bitter, is there?
Then, I would use testing kits to see if there was any interesting reactions. A Marquis testing kit evaluation, for example, would be interesting to see on any part of the plant that was bitter.
However, I cannot say that this is alone to know if the plant is safe to consume. Look at sun-opener, with its high oxalic acid content before it is fermented in the sun. However, I think that a bitter taste and reactions like indones or phenethylamines could be enough to get some cultivation by members, and possibly some attention by some real scientists with labs.
Still, just a LITTLE info about preparation could make it safer to try . . .
BTW, I could prolly send you a testing kit :cool3
Irie Folk's,
Well did some tea with a bunch(ten'ish) of the leaves & Pseudobulb (figure this is where the active ingredient is), boiled it up, reduced it down, added more water and a white sage tea bag, for flavor.......tasted alright.....
As for effect.....I'm afraid that it was inconclusive.......Due to a Near Death Experience;
The previous days antics...Winter Solstice...
Well My brother was down for the Xmas and happen to bring along 3g of some sort of Mexican mushrooms. So we embarked The Solstice Sacred Mountain Mission.......the days aim, to plant Anadenanthera Colubrina on top.
Well, we downed the shroom tea, then a shot of my special mushroom Mescal Tequila :shock: and set off for the mountain.......side mission MJ clone at base plot....which took ten minutes.....
A beautiful day, dry, clear skies......start to feel the shooms kicking in.....Off on the assent.
So we are wandering along checking out some local plants on the way.......looking for Tabernaemontana Citrifolia specimen for my garden...
When all of a sudden...*Crack* rocks start to roll, trees are being broken in half as a hail of rock rain down on us. I look back to see a very large boulder passing my bro...everything goes slow motion...........we duck for cover as the rock continue to fall from 1,800ft above.....taking cover wasn't easy and I was wishing I had packed my rock climbing helmet....damn too late now!
I manage to get down behind a tree as my bro reaches my side, then **pow** a rock bounces off my head, :e_surprised: landing in the crook of a tree, a next one hits my leg, resulting in a good cut, and a next rock hits my back....
After about 4 minutes all is quiet......we start to get our shit together......Enuff to say that this really messed up the shooms as we had to get real, real fast.....I start wondering if the Gods were trying to kill us or teach us some friggin' respect.....Tie my leg and back to the assent.....
Now the knock on the head didn't put me out but left me with slight concussion.....hard to tell with the shooms...
As we continue I notice that I'm get dizzy off balance feeling when I look upwards. So don't look up!
We reach the summit and set about trying some smoking blend......nuff to say we smoke mj all day!
First up...my first hit of Salvia.....scored a vile of 5x in UK earlier in the year......popped it in the pipe with a local tobacco base..drew hard and held it.....Nothing...not a bloody thing! Bro tries it nope.....this shit must be dud. Still had a 10x that I left at home 2,500ft down.........
Next mix.....Justicia leaf, Ambrosia hisida leaf and what turned out to be the nicest smoke Mucuna pruriens flowers....This actually gave us a buzz......Well my head was spinning...... :smoke2:
We complete mission Cohoba planting 20 seed that I had soak for an hour...........there is Justicia at the base, sun bleach snail shells scattering on the path on the way up.....everything needed!!?.... :smoke:3
Well we make it back down without further incident....but my head is still pounding....drive home OK....seem to be functioning.....
Although I don't usually use any pharms....thought I better down a couple of soluble aspirin to quickly thin out my blood and prevent any aneurysms.....
Well after ten days and plenty of turmeric tea, the spinning has stopped.
We did the orchid tea the next day.....I'm sure I was buzzing on it but my bro said it didn't do shit.....
Suffice to say it didn't kill us.....and it does in my opinion warrants further investigation..
I'll do a take two after I've completed an aloe purge/ detox.....and get my head right! :tea:
Respect
Z
Thank you for doing this work.
I cannot tell you how much it is apperciated.
Irie,
The ceboletta has just flowered but I then noticed a bitch of a case of scale......trying to get a handle on the out break which is also affecting some of the other orchids. used a weak solution with teatree oil so far....
Respect
Z
Here's the brew...[attachment=1:2tt14irh]100_1719a.JPG[/attachment:2tt14irh]
Mucuna pruriens flowers[attachment=0:2tt14irh]100_1413a.JPG[/attachment:2tt14irh]
Doesn't 'peyote' translate as medicine?
Pretty sure that I've read that lots of plants were referred to as peyote simply because they were medicine plants.
Irie,
Time for take two...
Picked a couple of fresh plants....[attachment=0:is5sc4yo]DSCI0090.JPG[/attachment:is5sc4yo]
Brewing up this weekend.....I'll let you know!
Respect
Z
Flight delay due to fracturing mi knee hunting for pirate a treasure chest in the rainforest.........And No we didn't find the treasure chest! OUCH!!!
Did you finally made that second try ?
Let us know please !
Irie Sid,
Yeah Man been kinda distracted with these suckers....
[attachment=0:2m84be98]DSCI0091.JPG[/attachment:2m84be98]
But I'll try and get round to it this weekend...
Respect
Z
haha !
you live in a really nice place, for sure !!
I'm impatiently waiting for reading more about that...
see you
sid
Irie,
So finally got round to the second brew....
4oz of fresh leaves flowers & roots were crushed with a rolling pin and boiled.
Added the juice from one lime and a couple of grams of Caapi leaves....
Well drank down a large cup of the brew....waited an hour...had another.......
NOTHING
No buzz...slight headache...couple of good dumps (I guess that was Caapi)....
So at this dosage it appears that the whole thing is bullshit......
I'll be getting back to the shrooms now....
Respect
Z