Spirit Plants - Discussion of sacred plants and other entheogens

The Following Botanicals are Illegal in the U.S.A.-

Dried Psilocybin/Psilocin containing Mushrooms
Lophophora williamsii (All parts except seeds)
Tabernanthe iboga (All parts except seeds)
Erythroxylum coca (All parts except seeds)
Cannabis (All parts except seeds)
Papaver somniferum  (All parts except seeds)



Spread these as much as possible!

"'Shrooms" ~ Psilocybe Mushrooms (Spores/Mycelium)

"Peyote" ~ Lophophora williamsii (Seeds and Plants)

"Iboga" ~ Tabernanthe iboga (Seeds and Plants)

"Khat" ~ Catha edulis (Seeds and Plants)

"Opium Poppy" ~ Papaver somniferum (Seeds)

"Coca" ~ Erythroxylum coca (Seeds and Plants)

"Marijuana" ~ Cannabis (Seeds)

Sadly the above botanicals are illegal in the U.S.A.

I believe the key is massive cultivation and the free movement of the means for self-sufficent production of said botanicals. The constitutes of said botanicals in the "( )" should be spread as much as possible within the community as means of propagation.

*Note- I'm not encourging any illegal activity, always follow your local and State laws*

Teo: Its sort of fun watching you talk out of both sides of your mouth in the same thread.

We had another young kid who liked to do the same way back when spr was spf. (I don't remember his name.) But the kid didn't like the way we ran the boards with a non-incrimination policy. He raised hell and made his views known. Then one day he got busted. A little later he came on line and admitted what happened. He also said that he now understands the policy of non incrimination. He told us that more than once.

The bottom line, for most adults, is that you can  either do or talk about doing, but not both. At least in public. And with you manners on these boards, I really doubt you will ever get old time regulars here to do much bidness with you. Too much talk. Maybe one day you will learn. What you do is up to you. But I feel sorry for those who you might take down with you. I'm guessing it will be nubes to the scene, just like you.

I'd rather see you take your act on the road and quit preaching to the locals. There are a ton of non-entheo sites that could use your words of wisdumb. But here, you are preaching to the choir and potentially drawing unwanted attention to the site by advocating illegal acts.

I know I'm not the first person on the first site to get sick of your immature ways. You have made enemies  where ever you go. Get a clue before its too late. Grow the fuck up. This isn't a game.

Or are you intentionally attempting to draw negative attention to this site?

lw

Hmm now; I'd make a comment but LW pretty much hit it outta the park..  Teot my man, I can truly understand your fervent hopes for a "entheo overgrow" style of approaching things, but you do need to realize that there are ways to finess such issues....  I will say one thing; you certainly seem to have quite the green thumb..  Good luck on your hoticultural pursuits, and let's hope LEO does not make an appearance at your digs........

I certainly don't do anything illegal, so I'm not really worried. Unless the cops want to arrest me for having a couple of grams of cannabis, I have nothing to worry about.

QuoteOr are you intentionally attempting to draw negative attention to this site?

I posted this on every site I could think of! Not just here! I can remove it if you'd like.

I tryed to be vague in my wording. How did that one guy get busted?

I'd also like you guys to know that I only advocate the cultivation of botanicals, I DO NOT advocate the use of drugs. I just hate I can't grow these amazing plants! That's all I'm trying to say! IF LW or Senor of anybody esle wants me to remove this, I'd be glad to, just let me know.

P.S.- I'm not missing any illegal botanicals, am I? I think those are the only 7 specially illegal botanicals in the U.S.A.

Discussion is always allowed. Where we draw the line is advocating illegal acts. Your post was a little borderline but I see nothing wrong with it. We aren't a bunch of old ladies hiding under the bed but we try to keep things low key.

Last I heard, khat had been removed from the list of banned plants but I can no longer find the list. The ingredients in khat are still illegal. Lots of ingredients in legal plants are illegal so you shouldn't extract them.

QuoteLots of ingredients in legal plants are illegal so you shouldn't extract them.

Right and this is my point exactly! I just want to grow these amazing plants!

Please nobody extract these plants! Doing so allows us to be subject to the full extent of the law, but growing the plants for scientific purposes, should be totally legal.

Has "Khat" really been removed?! If so... I'm getting some!

When you state it that way Teot; I can see exactly where you're coming from....  If you get a chance, you might want to do some Googling concerning the state of Louisiana...  About a year and a half ago, they trotted out a laundry list of musta been 40 or so plants that they were listing as banned:  Salvia, Viridis, Caapi, and on and on...  They were truly trying to basically attack anything with an entheo effect regarless if the actual substance was currently scheduled or not...  The only saving grace to the bill(which was put into law), is that they did make the little gesture that the plants were still allowed for landscaping, or botanical specimens, just not as 'prepared dosages'.....  So I guess not a total bad thing....  I can certainly understand how you'd just get a kick out of having some specimen or another around, watching it grow, and getting off on the fact that therin lies the living breathing 'entheo'..  Must be fun, alas, I have never been able to grow much of anything, just never had the knack, nor place,climate what have you....  Like was stated above, don't bother to delete; we're all experienced and world weary enough to handle things...  We've just always tried to stay on the 'theoretical side' on issues of legality........

QuoteWe've just always tried to stay on the 'theoretical side' on issues of legality.....

I currently don't own any grey-area botanicals in the U.S.A., but once precidents have been made (such as allowing NAC members to grow Lophophora) I will consider obtaining some of these rare and interesting botanicals!

teo: I can't count the number of threads you have inquired into the entheogenic strength of a certain cactus or if the other person has bio-assayed said plant to know its strength.  I've seen you ask for lophs on the trade forum. Advocating the breaking of laws isn't negated by claiming in the following line that you aren't advocating the acts advocated above. Nobody is that stoopid.

The bottom line is that you are playing loose and free with flaunting the law in public. I know its a youngster/ego thing. But there is the potential to affect others as well. You have been warned. While I could care less if you get busted, I'd rather you go about that bidness somewhere else.

Btw, stoney, while you are free to put in your two cents to this conversation, I see you as one of the most shitty moderators in the history of spf/spr, so any advice you give should be taken with a grain of salt, imo.

lw

lw, while you are allowed the same freedom to express your opinions as teo is, you do not run things around here. I've got news for you. You do not give warnings nor do you set policy. Policy is the area of the membership in general and the mods/admins in particular.

Hey, stoney.

Nobody asked the nube to remove his post. Just like no one asked you your opinion on if it should be removed. But there the two of you are....

Btw, show me a warning or spr policy I made that I wasn't entitled to make in this thread. I posted as a forum member. You posted as a mod. And its not the first time you have butted into bidness in a forum that's not your concern. Remember?

lw

stoney dude: I don't think you read so well. My warnings to teo have nothing to do with forum policy. When I say he's been warned, its to the fact that I see him as a prime target to get busted by the poh-poh. Only a dumb ass would equate the warning I made above in the context that it was presented as a forum warning. And that's why I don't think you make a very good mod. Most written subtleties seem to be lost on you.

lw

lw, you warn people and then say it's just your opinion. I explain that you don't run things around here and you try to say that's acting as a mod and imply that it's something wrong, which it isn't. You hate me for some unknown reason, perhaps due to your mental instability. That's your problem and I don't let it bother me. I will continue to give my opinions whether you like it or not.

Teo, according to forum policy, you are allowed to state your opinions same as lw or anyone else and it counts the same as anyone else's. lw is not trying to protect you from anything. He could care less what happens to you, he said as much. There is a fine line between talking about your own experiences and encouraging others to do the same. Saying it was a foaf or swim means little. We are in the process of hammering out forum policy and when it's done, it will be posted. In the meantime, try not to advocate illegal things or gray area. You can talk about what you want but try to be prudent.

I really don't mind removing this thread if it's causing problems.

Didn't mean any mal-intent.

Again, I'm not afiad of the police, as I don't do anything illegal, except smoke cannabis, all my botanicals are legal and I don't grow cannabis or mushrooms. I pay my taxes, I follow laws... why did I need to fear the police for discussions I have on forums?

I understand what your saying Stonehenge and will glady comply with anything the mods or admins ask me!

Illegal?

Says who?

lw

The gubmit, you stoopid fuck.

Who you gonna listen to, the gubmit or God?

God.....  So, will God read my posts?

No, but the gubmit might...... - bol -

lw

That's ok... can you just edit your post and make them about something on topic?

Just hit edit dude, like I did!!!

How's that?

lw

QuoteLast edited by laughingwillow on Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In fact your original post made at

QuotePosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:45 pm

was

QuoteLast edited by laughingwillow on Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

You just edited your posts dude.

Whats the deal?

Why are you playing around?

You edited one post 3 times?

QuoteHow's that?

   :shock:

Okay I haven't posted here in awhile so I am going to phrase this as carefully and nicely as I possibly can.

Teotz is a troll human hybrid who has very hard time understanding how to communicate properly on these boards. He has been slowly getting himself banned from every OMC/Ethno board in existence and has now sadly made his way here.

You guys should just ban him now and save yourselve's the trouble... It'll eventually come down to that anyway, trust me.

I really don't want any trouble. LW edited his posts and I really don't understand what hes trying to do.

If you don't want trouble then why is it that everywhere you go that is exactly what you find?

After 6-10 communities or whatever you would think you would've gotten the clue by now.

2 things you need to understand to get along in theses communities:

1) Read and obey all rules to the letter.

2) Don't ask stupid questions, and communicate in such a way that you don't come off like some 15 year old kid who just stumbled into a world of 'legal highs', and is super excited to try them all out one by one.

I think you'll get it eventually Teo, but I also think it won't be anytime soon, as I have sneaking suspicion that you are a lot younger than you tell people. You come off like a minor, not an adult, whether you'd like to admit it or not.


As For El Dub, well, he's a big boy. I think he can speak for himself.

I'm of certainly of legal age to be on these forums, if the mods would like ask for proof I'd be glad to provide it for them.

Now, your being the troll, I'd prefer to go back to the topic... is that ok?

Yep I'm just a big troll.  :oops:

Who told?



Well to get back on topic, I have now read the entire thread and I have come to the conclusion that there is no real or tangible topic to discuss.

But regarding your first post; you are aware there is a pm system, no? I'm not saying that you should use it to that end, but it does exist. :P

Thank you for posting on topic, I really apperciate it.

I'm not a bad guy, I just said some foolish stuff when I was younger, and for that, I'm sorry...

I really wish I could put the past behind me tho...

How can you put the past behind you when you keep living there?

lw

I think varj just hit the nail squarely on the head. He reads at more places than I do.

teo: YOU asked me to edit my posts above in order to keep on topic and I did just that. What the fuck do you care how many attempts it takes me to get into the format I desire?

I suggest everyone read varj's post above.

lw

Sorry L.W.

You asked me to edit my posts above to make them on-topic. I did just that.

Btw, I called myself a stoopid fuck in the post above. From the first post you asked me to edit:

lw: Illegal?
lw: Says who?

From the second post you asked me to edit:

lw: The gubmit, you stoopid fuck.

lw

O ok man. I'm sorry. Let's stop fighting you seem like a nice guy. My bad.

Actually im not sure myself of the exact  legal status of some of the above mentioned seeds/plants but I think some of them might not even be illegal.  

I don't think Catha edulis seeds are illegal in the US.   Im not sure about the plants though.    

It would be nice if we had something to follow but then again the government prob wouldnt provide us with that since it would be like saying: ok this is a legal drug plant to grow, this one isn't..etc,   but dont use this one that is for....  

I think Poppy seeds are legal but they used to be sold strictly for cooking purposes only and not cultivation?   Why would a garden company be selling them then?  

I mean many vendors sell them but I dont think they are illegal until they are planted.  

Tabernanthe iboga im not sure if the seeds are illegal or not?    

Cannabis seeds are illegal but you arn't going to get in alot of trouble , you will probably just receive a letter from customs or else they will just confiscate them and not tell you since you should know they are illegal.    

It is like if your  porn video/magazine all of a sudden you couldnt find in your room, would you ask your mom or dad if they took it?  

It is like asking the post office why didn't I get my cannabis seeds in the mail?  

Actually i heard once in a cannabis magazine it could happen where the government will allow you to get the seeds and then 6-12 months down the road they will come knocking at your door seeing if you have any illegal flowering plants which they can then bust you for.  

Lambo used to have good information but then again they wernt the law so i dont know for sure?  

Coca seeds i heard were legal it was the plants and the derivatives of the leaves...such as salts..etc that were illegal.  

Im not sure if this just meant the species; Erythroxylum coca?   You know there is at least one other species ( im not going to name it here)    which is reasonable as a cocaine producing species.  

Im not sure if the law just bans the E. coca species for cultivation?  

I think it does but im not sure?  

Don't think im advocating anything anybody please.  

I am questioning the laws myself.   I wish we knew what we could or couldnt grow.  

All I can say is grow whatever you want but don't grow these three:  

Cannabis sativa, Papaver somniferum( Poppy) and Lophophora williamsii( Peyote).    

Also don't grow mushrooms in jars since they can be tested to see if they are Psilocybe.

Police know what the above plants look like.    They arnt as smart should I say when it comes to other plants since they look so much like our familar house plants.

I always wondered if god/nature made cannabis so indistinguishable from other plants?  

My saying is: It doesn't take a botanist to identify Cannabis, just like it doesnt take an economist to know that walmart pays its employees below the poverty line.   It doesn't take a chemist to know that partially hydrogenated oils are trans fats.  

 It doesnt take a.... could make a blog based on common sense things applied to different disciplines.  

Cops arn't botanists/ or even competant horticulturists so its highly unlikely they will know you have an iboga or khat plant growing in your yard.   Im not saying that means its ok to grow illegal drug plants.  

Hey it would be nice if we knew exactly what was illegal or isnt?  

Ok it is a given cannabis, opium, peyote are illegal but what about some other plants?  

Can we claim ignorance of the law?

Maybe I was wrong before.   Maybe police departments require their officers take a course in drug plant taxonomy!   BOT420 or BIO420

That was a really good post!

Got a source for that "police take a botany class" reference?

Actually, the laws on poppy cultivation aren't that clear either. Lots of people grow them in their gardens. I think where they draw the line is when someone processes them to extract opium or other opiates. Lancing a pod would be evidence of that but they would have to prove who did it. A lot of plants are in a gray area. They speak of mown poppy straw which one would assume means the plants have been harvested in some way. Just leaving them grow may be ok. But then you never know sometimes.

That's why I argue that all plants are (should be) legal as long as you have no intent to produce drugs from them.

I think you'd be safe with growing all the illegal botancials as long as you didn't actually produce anything with them.

Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl"That's why I argue that all plants are (should be) legal as long as you have no intent to produce drugs from them.

I think you'd be safe with growing all the illegal botancials as long as you didn't actually produce anything with them.

That is not correct. L williamsii and a few others like marijuana are specifically illegal and can not be grown without legal problems. Again, you are drifting away from talking about your own experiences into encouraging people to do illegal things. I know you were just giving your opinion but you have to be careful about telling people it's safe to do something that you do not know is safe.

I didn't say you can grow all the poppies you want and do anything you like with them and be safe. I pointed out a gray area in the law and even then I said "you never know"

I'm not telling people to do it, I just think risk of getting caught is low and the risk of getting in trouble is even lower.. IF you were only growing the botanicals that is, and had no intent to ingest anything.

Actually the laws on poppy cultivation in the Us are very clear. It is absolutely 100% illegal to cultivate opium poppy. In fact the only legal use of any for of poppy is the culinary use of the seed. If you germ the seed,  or possess the plant matter (intent matters not) you have already broken the law. Even for craft purposes, they are still illegal.

The law is clear on this matter, the enforcement of it, however, is not.

2 years ago a person living 40 miles from me was charged with possesion of P. som, when his house was raided and dried pods were found.

The risk of getting caught cultivating illegal plants is actually very high, especially if you take into account the penalties for manufacture.

Please stop saying otherwise, Teo. Your advice/opinions could potentially be putting people at risk.

When I saw you posted in this thread I was a little worried.

But that was a perfectly reasonable post.

Thank you, I hope we can continue acting nice to each other in the future.

If you'd like me to edit a certain post, please PM me and I'd be glad to do so.

Vajra, this debate has raged on many boards over the years. You aren't completely wrong and you aren't completely right. What the law is depends not only on what the statute says but also on how the courts have interpreted it and on patterns of law enforcement. There are many laws on the books which are a dead letter.

Take for example laws on cohabitation which are still on the books in many states. That dates back to a more prudish era. They haven't been enforced in years except in cases of minors. Even then they seldom enforce them unless there is a complaint. Does that mean it's illegal to have your girlfriend who is over 21 move in with you? The law clearly states that it is. However, if they tried to arrest someone in that situation, it would not stand up in court. They can not selectively enforce the law. It either applies to all or to none.

So it is with the poppy laws. Thousands or perhaps milions of people are growing them. Garden centers sell packs of seed and you can get seeds in the grocery store that will sprout. No one is being arrested for it absent evidence of drug use. That would include lancing the pods and collecting latex, making tea or extracting from them. I'm willing to bet the person you mentioned was arrested for something other than poppy cultivation.

That doesn't mean it's perfectly legal. It means it's in a gray area but if they try to arrest and charge you for merely growing them, the case will likely be thrown out of court. That's why they don't bother.

Ya dude!  :cool2

There is alot a person could say but im pretty sure why many plants originally became illegal and because of this some still remain that way:  

Religion.  

They say to keep religion out of politics and schools well they shouldn't of forced it on many indigenous peoples  but we can't change that now, we also can't change which plants became illegal as a result of that or were illegal in the past but arn't now ( Yes there are some I will explain) .

There is a saying that sometimes a person needs to know the history behind something to avoid ignorance.  

I learned this saying in a philosophy class but its so true for alot of things.    

Im not saying anyone on here is ignorant but many other people are when it comes to drug plant history.

Ok plants were illegal in the past but arnt now?  You might say that cant be true.    (Most of these were Solanaceaous plants such as Mandrake, Datura, Belladonna, Henbane..etc)  

Anyone know of any Nightshades/ Solanaceae illegal today? I sure don't.

They may not of been illegal then as we think of the word illegal today  but guess what, get caught growing them and you would be accused of being a witch and burned at the stake.  

Nowadays they won't kill you for growing illegal plants they will just throw you in jail.    

See this was religion's fault.  If you grew them you were a witch/ devil worshipper and bad.  


Similar things can be said when the Spanish went to South america and forced the Indians to convert to their Catholic religion,
they said the indians habit of chewing coca leaves was of the devil..etc.

I think they said the same about Indians in Mexico and Texas that used peyote.  

Still it was based on religion like they said about european americans who used solanaceaous plants.  

If religion has no place in schools or politics then it doesnt have a place in a persons garden is the way i see it.  

Im not saying religion is bad but people need to realize it isnt good to force anything.  

I think Jainism which is a religion itself ( i know that doesn't sound good talking about religion)  would agree with this.

I dont remember which principle or maybe it was Taoism?   One of those two would agree that non-force is a good thing.  

Christianity on the other hand people thought was ok to use to just force everyone to convert to it and using  certain drug plants was of the devil.

They obviously didnt follow the religion properly and almost sound like how Paul originally was ( he was a roman) who used to not be a christian and persecuted people who were christian.  

I know this is the other way around how The Spanish when they invaded south america  persecuted people who wern't christian but its the same thing.

QuoteIf religion has no place in schools or politics then it doesnt have a place in a persons garden is the way i see it.

 :e_biggrin:


Taoism is the one your thinking about  :tea:

Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl""'Shrooms" ~ Psilocybe Mushrooms (Spores/Mycelium)

"Peyote" ~ Lophophora williamsii (Seeds and Plants)

"Khat" ~ Catha edulis (Seeds and Plants)

"Opium Poppy" ~ Papaver somniferum (Seeds)

"Iboga" ~ Tabernanthe iboga (Seeds and Plants)

"Coca" ~ Erythroxylum coca (Seeds and Plants)

"Marijuana" ~ Cannabis (Seeds)

While this is indeed a strange post and I see no reason it should have been posted, I want to make note that the seeds of pot (marijuana) are illegal to possess, but the spores for mushrooms are not and neither are the seeds for Papaver somniferam (Poppy seeds) which can legally be purchased under the brand name of Dutch Blue from any Bar and Restaurant Supply firm listed in the yellow pages of phone directories in most major metropolitan cities in the USA and throughout most of the world.

You listed spores and mycellium also, however, spores are only illegal in California, Idaho and Georgia.  And thanks to a recent FBI study and published paper, according to them there is no psilocine or psilocybine in the mycelia of magic shrooms, so the mycelia can legally be send across the continental USA and not be illegal.

boomer2

QuoteYou listed spores and mycellium also, however, spores are only illegal in California, Idaho and Georgia. And thanks to a recent FBI study and published paper, according to them there is no psilocine or psilocybine in the mycelia of magic shrooms, so the mycelia can legally be send across the continental USA and not be illegal.

Perfect!!!

I think we should follow most laws put in place by our various governments except those which state that we may not grow a certain botanical!

All botanicals, all plants, all cacti, all fungi, all forms of life should be legal!

(Note the "I think")

Actually they should be approached from an ecological standpoint.  

Plants as well as some fungi produce chemicals that protect them from herbivores.    This is part of the green world hypothesis ( well fungi isn't but i included it anyways since some fungi produce chemicals as well).

Plants have to be able to survive in nature since there are more species of insects than there are plants.  Not just insects but other herbivores as well.   Plants have physical defenses such as thorns and chemical defenses such as alkaloids, terpenes..etc.    

Mescaline, THC, Cocaine, Morphine, Psilocybin are all defense mechanisms, its just a coincidence that they became used as recreational drugs by humans.  

Peyote is said to be one of the only cacti that doesn't bear spines but instead it relies on chemical defenses to protect itself.  Mescaline is probably the main alkaloid that discourages browsing.  

An animal learns to avoid it after eating it.  Not that mescaline will necessarily kill an animal, but it will deter it from consuming it next time.  

I think horses learn to not eat sleepy grass more than onetime.

QuoteMescaline, THC, Cocaine, Morphine, Psilocybin are all defense mechanisms, its just a coincidence that they became used as recreational drugs by humans.

I disagree. I think they are from God, put here so plants can talk with people.

QuotePeyote is said to be one of the only cacti that doesn't bear spines but instead it relies on chemical defenses to protect itself. Mescaline is probably the main alkaloid that discourages browsing.

Wrong. Ariocarpus. Astrophytum. There.

I wasnt trying to turn it into a religious conversation i was just agreeing that they shouldnt be illegal and i was using  ecology to explain that they have a right to grow and be here just like everything else does- just because they produce chemicals that help them survive/ adapt doesnt mean they should be illegal.    

To say any plant is bad is absurd and plants should have the right to grow where they please, it is people that are bad and abuse the earth like pollution , deforestation, global warming,...etc    not plants.  
 

 I was just using the example of how plants use chemicals and thats how an ecologist or biologist would look at it rather than someone who just heard the word cocaine and has no knowledge of alkaloids and other secondary compounds found in plants.  

Cocaine is thought to work as a defense and i heard onetime the US DEA tried to use an insect pest to attack coca plants in South America and the plants adapted by producing more cocaine alkaloids to prevent the insects from eating them.

You can believe what you want but i was just recently reading about a plant from Australia which was shown to have anti-fungal, anti-bacterial and anti-feeding properties.    

This is all suggested/ proposed and not proven.  ( the function of alkaloids in plants)

Using a car should be illegal.  I dont agree that a society can say what is legal or isnt.    

Saying something that was created by god/nature is illegal is absurd.

I think the man-made and or extracted  drugs should be illegal but not the plant itself.    

Coca plants are no more dangeous than drinking coffee yet alot of ignorant people think coca and cocaine are the same when they arnt.

I think cocaine should be illegal but not using coca leaves.

What is a society to say whether something is bad or good that is found in nature?    Cocaine is semi-synthetic so id say it should be illegal if it was up to me.   Meth should be illegal since it is mostly synthetic and a bunch of dangerous chemicals.   I dont think using opium should be illegal but heroin yes.  

God/nature it doesnt matter. Some biologists believe in both and that god orchestrated evolution.

QuoteI wasnt trying to turn it into a religious conversation i was just agreeing that they shouldnt be illegal and i was using ecology to explain that they have a right to grow and be here just like everything else does- just because they produce chemicals that help them survive/ adapt doesnt mean they should be illegal.  

Good point.

QuoteTo say any plant is bad is absurd and plants should have the right to grow where they please, it is people that are bad and abuse the earth like pollution , deforestation, global warming,...etc not plants.

That what I'm saying man. You know don't do cocaine or shoot heroin or whatever, but I think we should be able to grow whatever plants we fucking please.

QuoteSaying something that was created by god/nature is illegal is absurd.

Preach on brother!

QuoteWhat is a society to say whether something is bad or good that is found in nature? Cocaine is semi-synthetic so id say it should be illegal if it was up to me. Meth should be illegal since it is mostly synthetic and a bunch of dangerous chemicals. I dont think using opium should be illegal but heroin yes.

They think about what I do... that all botanicals, should be 100% legal in their living and dried forms, only if they were processed into drugs would they be illegal.

It would be legal to do simple extractions of botanicals in ones home or private property, such as brewing ayahuasca, or making hash, but I would still like to see ayahuasca, shrooms, peyote and cannabis commerically illegal.

I, along with Jonathan Ott, Dennis McKenna and Jochen gartz on a panel discussion group, all suggested and agreed in 1994 at Chapman University in Orange County, California, at the Gathering of the Minds Symposium (12 hours),  That natural plants should be legal and extractions of the active ingredients illegal.

This was onthe very day or Richard M. Nixon's funeral.

It is taped on VHS. I intend in the next month or so tohave this video of this panel discussion on you tube before the x-mas holiday.

WE debated this, Ott talks about it in Pharmacotheon, the most liberal approace to legalizing drugs by any professional scholar, and that was later followed by Sasha and Ann Shulgin in Tihkal.  I was the first to present individual dosages for mushrooms in both my 1st two mushroom field guides because the experts were afraid to.

Dennis and I had discussed that very idea at lunch before our lectures a the all day conference of more than fifty speakers, including Tim Leary and Baba Ram Dass and others.

boomer2

I, along with Jonathan Ott, Dennis McKenna and Jochen gartz on a panel discussion

Quotegroup, all suggested and agreed in 1994 at Chapman University in Orange County, California, at the Gathering of the Minds Symposium (12 hours), That natural plants should be legal and extractions of the active ingredients illegal.

And thats exactly what I'm talking about!

Teotzecal i meant generally speaking Peyote is one of the only cacti that doesn't have spines.  I meant looking at the majority of cacti species out there they seem to rely on spines as a physical defense against herbivores while peyote uses chemicals instead since it lacks the spines.  

Mescaline ive heard is even found in some Opuntia but much lower % compared to Trichocereus pachanoi or Peyote.  

Phytochemistry is an interesting topic but i dont like chemistry that much and i would have to take to many other chemistry classes just to be able to take phytochemistry.  

I think wild plants contain higher concentrations  of chemicals to be used as defenses and that is also why wild ginseng is worth more than even  simulated wild ginseng ( ginseng that you plant and try to make it  wild).  

I know wild purslane contains alot more oxalic acid than the cultivated varieties.  

This means you probably shouldnt eat a lot of wild purslane.

I agree that no plant should be illegal but if i were to tell people that they might think i am growing marijuana , or poppies which i am not.

Its hard to avoid ignorance;   i once was telling a teacher about coca plants and then he started to say: your not growing anything illegal.

See that is ignorance right there.  Coca isnt cocaine.  I was telling him about my friend who lives in Indonesia.  

Coca is probably one of the best plants in the world it is so nutritious and etc yet people in America are ignorant about it because of the war on drugs propaganda.

Huge distinction.  You take one alkaloid out of the plant then it becomes a dangerous addictive drug, but using the whole herb isnt the same.      Coca is the best example i can think of.  

Its not because cocaine is purified its because the other chemicals are absent which would have a neutralizing effect on the cocaine alkaloid.  


Hey i have a book where this author makes a point about it.   Botany in a day is the name.  

He says when u start extracting chemicals you actually begin to learn less about the plant.

Apparently you are not aware of the ethnobotanical garden in Hawaii on the big Island of Hawaii near Kona which grows dozens of entheogenic plants legally. It was started by the Late Terence McKenna and his wife Kat Harrison,

You really need to start reading the literature about entheogens.

One, the government will never allow the legalization of these plants.  IT is not a religious matter.

Minors steal, car tape decks, stereos, burglarize homes just to buy a gram of pot.  This is what law Enforcement see every day.

Families do not want this happening to their children.  It has nothing to do with your rights or mine.

I notice in your entheogenic declaration you say anyone 17-years-of age.  IS that your age?

 Read some Mercea Eliade Shamanism books.  Writings by McKenna Richard Evans Schultes, the greatest Botanist of the last century.

He lived in the Amazon for 14 years.  hardly saw any white man.  Botanically discovered over 24,000 plants new to science.  83 of them were entheogenic plants.  HE has a 2 million acre land tract in the Amazon named in his honor.

Co-authored the Plants of the Gods and the Botany and Chemistry of the Hallucinogens with Albert Hofmann.

Wade Davis, author of the Serpent and the rainbow wrote his biography called, One River.  Read that book.  Learn to post information which you actually have knowledge of instead of sophomoric tirades.

Then people might began to take you seriously.

You speak of all of these entheogenic plants yet you have no knowledge of them, their culture or their history.

Read Jonathan Ott's Pharmacotheon and Ayahuasca Analogs.

Read Sasha and Ann Shulgin's Tihkal.

Go to Hawaii and take a course at the u of Hawaii on Psychoactive Drug Plants.  A 16 week course, which also requires a lab course and some psychology classes or a class on social medicines.  This course is by my co-author on 7 papers on magic shrooms.  Dr. Merlin also wrote the first modern book on Hemp (Man and Marijuana, 1971), soon to be released with a few hundred more pages of updates and partially edited my me.  That was his masters degree thesis at the U of Hawaii for the Department of geography. HE also wrote for the Federal Government, On the Trail of the Ancient Opeium Poppy.  And coauthored, Kava The Pacific Drug with Vince LeBot.

Merlins course:

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boomer2

The last two pages of Dr. Merlin's course

This course is scheduled every other semester.

Of course you can take courses in Ethnobotany at many University's, Including Harvard where most of the scholars involved in psychedelic research graduated from.

Terence McKenna graduated at the U of Hawaii

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boomer2

I know U of Hawaii, Manoa has programs in ethnobotany.  

right now i am just working on getting a four year degree in plant biology.  

Im not sure exactly what branch of biology id like to specialize in.  

Probably not genetics i know that for sure.  

I think southern illinois university has graduate programs in ethnobotany as well as Miami International University in Florida.

Boomer, thanks for posting the interesting information. It is nice that they are teaching about these things. Maybe some day people will be more tolerant and understanding. Speaking of which, I have to take exception to this part:

QuoteMinors steal, car tape decks, stereos, burglarize homes just to buy a gram of pot. This is what law Enforcement see every day.

Families do not want this happening to their children. It has nothing to do with your rights or mine.

That is terrible misinformation. Perhaps you don't like pot but the fact that kids steal and do other things is not because of pot. Cannabis is not addictive but you seem to imply that it is or that it makes people commit crimes. It has a lot to do with our rights, IMO. People steal to eat, should we make food illegal or other things they may buy?

I would go along with denying it to minors, much the same way alcohol is regulated. They always seem to use the old "it's to protect the children" to take away our rights. How many times have I heard that one? They are using that to try to censor the internet and prohibit many other things. They use protecting the children as an excuse to spy on us or other totalitarian things they want to do.

I happen to love pot and have nothing against it personally.  however, statistics show that teenage theft revolves around being able to purchase marijuana which use to be ten dollars an ounce.  When it was Ten an ounce,, their was really less crime associated with drugs and drug use.

Interstingly, hash has been stable since the 1970s. While pot increased to 20 an ounce int eh 1970s, ounces of hash increased form $0 dollars an ounce to *20 and now about $100-$120.00 an ounce, yet a gram has been stable at ten an ounce to $15.

While marijuana is considered as a harmless drug, Teenagers who drop out of school are a big cause of concern with law enforcement agencies. I have this on good information first hand form Sasha Shulgin who for twenty years analyzed drugs for the DEA in court cases.

He had informed me personally that pot is a big social problem for teenagers who do not finish school and that it is statistically recorded that many car theft of radios and tape players and cd's are by teenagers looking to buy pot and other drugs.  This includes teenage robberies in many suburban areas in condos, duplexes and apartment buildings.

And many of these kids involved in this kind of activity are white middle-class and below.  More so than blacks.

But it also showed that many are also into meth, crack and cocaine bow as opposed to twenty-five years ago when most drug crimes were related to prostitution and mob action.

Anyway, have a shroomy day.

Someone who worked for the DEA is not an impartial source of info on pot.

"I have this on good information first hand form Sasha Shulgin who for twenty years analyzed drugs for the DEA in court cases."

That would be an interesting exam to take.    

Ya know im in organic chemistry and the only lab we did so far that had to do with plants was separating carotenes from green leafy plants.  

We used column chromatography, and before that i think we did a distillation.  

Ive been looking on siu site and there are different tests you can do to determine if a plant has: saponins, alkaloids, ketones, terpenes, essential oils..etc.  

I cant find the exact article i found before,  but i think that would be an interesting lab.  Too bad chemistry is usually boring.    

I mean it doesnt tell you what kind of alkaloids but it would tell you if alkaloids in general are present or not.  

I think ethnopharmacology and phytochemistry is interesting but i hate chemistry and dont want to take anymore if i dont have to.

QuoteI notice in your entheogenic declaration you say anyone 17-years-of age. IS that your age?

Nope, I'm 19.

Boomer, Your veiws on cannabis are silly... If you don't want kids doing stupid shit to get it... um... make it legal! Duh!

I can get cannabis sooooooooo much easier than alcohol!!!

Quote from: "Stonehenge"Someone who worked for the DEA is not an impartial source of info on pot.

"I have this on good information first hand form Sasha Shulgin who for twenty years analyzed drugs for the DEA in court cases."

Sasha and Ann Shulgin are two of the most respected authorities on the chemistry and actions of entheogenic drugs, especially the phenylethylamines and the tryptamines,. He has also written articles on the stupidity of drug laws and is for the legalization of many natural plant drugs and for chemical drugs for research.

His two books which contain over almost 400 recipes for creating such drugs cost him his DEA permit.

HE is also an expert on drugs and drug abuse and misuse of drugs.

He originally worked for Dow chemicals in 1940s and 1950s and one day he found that most of the essential oils of spices where chemically related to amphetamine and mescaline.  He was the first to synthesize MDA and MDMA from several essential oils of spices from Myristicine and Safrole from Nutmeg and Mace, From Safrole from Sassafrass, Apiole and Dill Apiole from Parsley and Spanish Dill, Fenyl Oil from Fenyl seed.

He learned to use pipyronol to synthesize MDA.

Many people do not known that in 1014, Georges Alles, a Frenchman created MDA and MMMA (the latter is different then MDMA) as food suppressants.  HE created them from synthesis of amphetamine.

Gave 5 and 10 mg injections every hour or so looking for food depressants and finally left them on the shelf because he was not using a dose large enough for a psychoactive stimulant effect.  The dose for MDA and MMDA was 75 to 125 milligrams.

So Sasha worked for the DEA in court cases to show what the illicit drugs were that the DEA were charging individuals with possession and sales, as well as every drug they confiscated in their normal every day busts.

Even ethnobotanist, Richard Evans Schultes, had testified about drugs in court on many occasions for the Government.

They were the real experts.

Anyway I am staying out of this argument form here one because I have more pressing work to finish.

Have a shroomy day.

Sasha has done more for the psychedelic community inthe last twenty years then most of the scholars who have written about his compounds, from dom (STO), Bromo (2CB), Mdm (X) MEM (EVE), MDA (the Love Drug) the 2-c compounds, and many more.

I have been lucky to have experienced over 26 of his creations.

boomer2

I have been lucky to have experienced over 26 of his creations.

boomer2

Well you can do whatever you want with the man-made crap, i will stick to using plants in their natural forms.  

I mean Salvia is on the news now because of the 10x extracts.  The mazatecs never used it that way  just like the incas didnt snort cocaine.  

I think chemistry has caused alot of problems even though it is usually credited with saving mankinds problems.  

Biology is blamed on evolution and i get sick of hearing that.  Philosophy and Anthropology classes are alot worse when it comes to their view on religion.

If biology is to blame on evolution then i would say chemistry is to blame for making alot of plants illegal.  

Some chemist decides to isolate one chemical and then a bunch of idiots use it irresponsibly and society will say: bad and illegal.  

coca= bad.

I dont see it that way.  Cocaine= bad.  Not coca.

What the hell happened to this thread?

Dude, cannabis should be legal, get outta here.

I didn't say it should be illegal.  

I said the synthetics should be illegal.  

Actually everything should be legal if it was responsible people that used them but usually it isnt.  

You get people who steal or do stupid stuff just to get their fix.  

They ruin it for the rest of us.  

It is like with the speed limit.  They say it is 65 but i can drive safely at 80 mph.  Just like i can drink 6 beers and drive safe home.  

Just cause some other idiot cant drive straight shouldnt mean i should get a dwi for 6 beers or should get a speeding ticket for driving 80 mph.

Laws are kind of stupid.  Some people can drive fine and drink 6-8 beers but they need to say that oh well some dumb blond drinks 3 beers and she cant walk straight.    Ok when u cant walk that should tell u that u shouldnt be driving.

That is the test, not some breathalizer bs.

You know what Teo.

I am sick of your bs.

John W. Allen

You do not know a fucking thing you are talking about and you apparently have no interest in reading anything I have suggested. It shows your ignorance.

Cannabis cup winners

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This book is written by an ancestor of mine.  this is a first edition and was the first book written on hemp for industrial use.

James Lane Allen was my father's great grand uncle.

(December 21, 1849 â€" February 18, 1925

This book was published in 1900.

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I also have the original  Newspaper article of his death written a week after his death found in one of my grandparents cedar chests after my grandfather died in 1973.

I am posting 3  of 16 parts of this article, you really do not deserve to ever see it.  You have no comprehension of how sophomoric  you comments are.


boomer2

Teo.

I am posting 3  of 16 parts of this article, I have better things to do with my life than argue with someone who doesn't listen or learn.  Because all you seem to be interested is your membership in the Peyote way of life.

You have no comprehension of how sophomoric  you comments  and ideas are.

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in the last 32 years I have presented over 100 lectures at symposiums, conferences and workshops on four continents.  And I know what I am talking about.

boomer2

Quote from: "dogbane26"That would be an interesting exam to take.    

Ya know im in organic chemistry and the only lab we did so far that had to do with plants was separating carotenes from green leafy plants.  

We used column chromatography, and before that i think we did a distillation.  

Ive been looking on siu site and there are different tests you can do to determine if a plant has: saponins, alkaloids, ketones, terpenes, essential oils..etc.  

I cant find the exact article i found before,  but i think that would be an interesting lab.  Too bad chemistry is usually boring.    

I mean it doesnt tell you what kind of alkaloids but it would tell you if alkaloids in general are present or not.  

I think ethnopharmacology and phytochemistry is interesting but i hate chemistry and dont want to take anymore if i dont have to.

Organic chemistry is where you learn about tryptamines, phenylethylamines, etc.

Boomer, you a smart dude... but your last post seem rather off topic...

Wouldn't you agree?

QuoteI am posting 3 of 16 parts of this article, I have better things to do with my life than argue with someone who doesn't listen or learn.

Then please go do something better with your time. Start your own thread and post in there.

QuoteYou have no comprehension of how sophomoric you comments and ideas are.

PFFFT!!! Ahahaha! Whatever dude!

QuoteI am posting 3 of 16 parts of this article, you really do not deserve to ever see it.

I don't deserve to see it? What are you on some kind of ego trip? Get that bullshit outta my thread then!!!

Boomer, I would be glad to read and consider what you have wrote... I just think your off topic... why not strat your own thread?

Hey Teo, calm down OK?

Boomer, I have of course heard of Shulgin and am surprised to hear of his anti-pot views. It matters not what degrees he may have or anything else. When I hear BS, I'm going to call it as I see it. Saying kids commit crime because they use pot is stupid. I don't care if the person saying it has 20 phd's or done any number of things. It's still stupid to say and people should not believe it. Even less someone like yourself who has worked in the area of entheogens. I say again that someone who worked for the DEA tends to spew the same garbage that the Bush administration does, or whatever administration happens to be in power. Those are the kinds of lies that have kept pot illegal for so long.

Ya ok, sorry Boomer, sorry Stone.

Stonehenge,

you said in your post that I implied that

QuoteSaying kids commit crime because they use pot is stupid.

What I said is that kids steal so the can use pot because they cannot afford to buy it because they should be in school getting an education.

Any good parent wants their children to always have the things they were never able to have or attain in their lives.

People whose parents and grandparents were never able to afford to go to college and now we have a few generations of young adults who are able to advance their roles in life by becoming educated and being able to raise a family decently.

As for Sasha, He was a court chemist who only verified the chemical identities of drugs analysed for cases brought before the federal courts.

I want to share a tale frpm Dick Schultes.

In Florida, there was a case of a man arrested for possession of marijuana.  He insisted his pot was Cannabis rudaralis, and was not sativa or indica so therefore it was not illegal to possess, since the law read that both C. sativa and C. indica were illegal to possess, sell, etc., C. ruderalis was not on any law books so it was considered not illegal.

So the attorney for the defendant went to Harvard after contacting Dr. Norman Zinberg, a pro marijuana supporter from Harvard who was also in the crowd with Alpert, Cohen, Schiller, Leary and Metzner and others involved inteh firt uses of drugs in psychotherapy.  And Norman Zinberg was an advocate for legal marijuana.

Norman Zinberg was also a close friend of Henry and Clare Booth Luce, the editors and publishers to Life and Time magazine.  They were celebrity druggies in the late 1950s and 1960s and were advocates for the legalization of marijuana and LSD.  J. Edgar hoover detested them and in their magazines they helped to spread the awareness that marijuana and other drugs were not dangerous if used in the right set and setting.

They published hundreds of articles over the years that were pro drug. And so This fellow on trial in Florida soon learned that the leading espert in plant identification, Ethnobotanist Richard Evans Schultes, was going to come and testify for him on his behalf over his marijuana possession charge.

Well here is what happened.  During that time  line, in order to analyze the marijuana, the chemist had to crush the leaves.  Sop according to Richard Evans Schultes, it would be almost impossible to determine which of the three varieties of Cannabis the defendant had possessed.

So, in order to not lose his case, the District Attorney droped the mai9n charges against the person whoo had majijuana and had him pay a fine tot he court.  In that manner, he was able to take control of the case again and by dropping the charges, he made it possible to keep the pot illegal because now the defendant did not have any reason to appeal his case to a higher court which may have, at that time, been able to overturn the Marijuana Tax Act which was the governing law against marijuana.

Eventually, it was Tim Leary's pot charges which overturned the 1939 Marijuana Tax Act.
you see, the purpose of that act was that if yuo had an ounce of marijuana, you were required by federal law to pay a $100.00 tax for each ounce of marijuana you possess.

So if you went into a federal tax office and paid the $100.00 tax on your ounce of pot, the feds would then turn you over tot he state, county and local authorities for breaking their laws and you wouold then go to jail for up to ten years or more.

Here is the catch which Tim Leary;s lawyers used to knowck the Marijuana Tax Axt out the door.

In this country, our revolution began with the Boston Tea Party, in regards to the outrageous taxes over  the taxining of the Tea.  See, in America, if you pay yor tazes you cannot be sent to jail.

It is what was known as 'taxation Without Representation." So that ended the Marijuana Tax Act which was the primary law making marijuana illegal.

So now we have a dozen or more states which have laws making marijuana possession for small amounts classified under law as being decriminalized.  So then you ae now fined a $100.00 for having anywhere form 45 grams down to a joint.

Only this time you pay a fine and do not go to jail.  So nothing has really changed in that regards.  The government is still stealing form its citizens.

A similar example of how we think times and things have change but really haven't is the great myth of Robin Hood, a character, Robin of Locksley, most likely a real human figure from the past who allegedly robbed from the rich and gave to the poor.

In the days of Robin Hood, it was illegal to shoot the King's deer.  You could go to gaol, be tortured or just hung for killing a deer in order to feed you family because of a weak economy.  that was because everyone who had a farm had to give their crops tot he king to feed the troops who protect the king and his land and supposedly his people.

Kinda like today

Your family is hungry, yo go out and shoot a deer to feed your family or maybe you steal a chicken,  Well the only difference today is that they will not kill or hang you but you will go to gaol for the same crime your ancestors were punished horribly for committing the same crime.

Here is a little bit about the third Cannabis,  Schultes helped write some grat articles while at Harvard about marijuana.  I used some of his research and also through personal communication when I helped Mark Merlin in drafting the first re-edit of his original book, Man and Marijuana.  Now Rob Clarke of Marijuana Botany has taken over the final edit and has become co-author. I personally added more than one hundred pages of new data to the original 1971 manuscript while I worked with Mark at the U of H in the mid 1990s for which I was paid several thousands of dollars.  It has taken mark more than 12 years to get to the  book and during that period I published nine little books and 4 cd-rom books, and built my big web site.

Mark was very busy with his classes at the university, he also has six books (colored pamphlets of Hawaiian plants of all kinds, Coastal Plants, Native Plants, Introduced species, etc, plus his other major drug book contributions and several dozen articles in journals like economic botany which he recently wrote an update on his original poppy book.

Well I was going to post the reprint cover of the J of Economic Botany (the same journal where Mushroom Ethnomycologist Rl. Gordon Wasson reviewed the first four of Carlos Castanedas books) and the title page but my eyes are sore now from wearing my glasses since 4 am this morn.

Later.

boomer2

QuoteThe return of Ruderalis, the third forgotten strain of hemp after sativa and indica.

This wild hemp strain, once discarded as useless, is making a comeback among both serious breeders and casual croppers.

Deep in the North American woods lurks a recent addition to the marijuana gene pool: Ruderalis hybrids! The forests and fields are coming alive with resinated plants, blasting their way to maturity under the intense light of the summer sun, long before the buzzing of choppers or moldy autumn weather.

Until recently, Ruderalis had been almost unanimously given a bad name by cultivators and breeders alike. Early Dutch seed pioneers like Super Sativa Seed Club voiced their concerns about Ruderalis early in the homegrown revolution. This was all with understandable reason, as pure Ruderalis varieties are almost completely devoid of THC and come with a host of other problems for the grower or breeder.

Breeding programs between Ruderalis and drug type strains can and have produced plants of notable quality. The aim of this article is to shine some light on this recent advance in marijuana breeding and pave the way to what could be the future of outdoor marijuana cultivation for many areas of the world.

What is Ruderalis?

Cannabis Ruderalis is a subspecies of Cannabis Sativa. The term was originally used in the former Soviet Union to describe the varieties of hemp that had escaped cultivation and adapted to the surrounding region.

Similar Ruderalis populations can be found in most of the areas where hemp cultivation was once prevalent. The most notable region in North America is the midwest, though populations occur sporadically throughout the United States and Canada. Without the human hand aiding in selection, these plants have lost many of the traits they were originally selected for, and have acclimatized to their locale.

Though they contain little THC, these plants hold large potential for use in breeding, both in hemp and marijuana applications. Early flowering and resistance to locally significant insect and disease pressures are but a few of the important traits present in these feral populations.

Thankfully, despite years of US government sponsored eradication programs, these wild plants still remain in bountiful abundance.

Early efforts

The first documented experiments in crossing drug strain varieties with their Ruderalis cousins were performed by Ernest Small of Agriculture Canada in Ontario during the 1970's, for the aiding in the purposes of taxonomic classification. Crosses between these strains usually produced offspring of intermediate THC levels, with a few that leaned more towards the high THC end of the spectrum. It was concluded during this research that hybrids between drug and non-drug (both ruderal and hemp cultivars were tested) generally produced progeny of intermediate potency.1

Perhaps the most known efforts to incorporate Ruderalis traits into drug hybrids are those of Nevil, proprietor of the original Seed Bank, and the person largely responsible for the original dispersion of many of today's drug varieties.

During the 1980's, Nevil experimented with crossing Ruderalis strains to plants such as Mexican, Skunk#1 and several Indicas, in hopes of combining the early flowering of the Ruderalis with the potency and flavor of the others.

Although some of Neville's crosses matured much earlier than previous marijuana strains, they tended to be low in potency, unstable in terms of maturity, and often sported buds that were leafy with shrunken calyxes.

BC's Mighty Mite

About this time, on British Columbia's Gulf islands, an outdoor grower was noticing that his October finishing strain always threw out a few plants that finished much earlier � by late July or early August. After several years of selections for this early flowering trait, the Mighty Mite strain was born.2 Mighty Mite effectively incorporated the auto-flowering trait, while retaining the habit and potency of its drug cultivar heritage.

For those in the know, Mighty Mite quickly became a popular outdoor strain for filling the traditional late summer drought in BC's pot market before the market was flooded with regular seasonal outdoor bud. Slowly, over the years, these genetics have spread further amongst underground pot growers and been used most successfully in hybridizations with more potent strains.

Aside from getting crops in before cops and other thieves can plunder them, these early plants have allowed growers to produce plants with much more commercial appeal than traditional Northern latitude outdoor marijuana.

Warm, dry summer weather with high light values allow buds to finish bright green and rock hard, making for better bag appeal. It is impossible to tell whether the many auto-flowering strains floating around all originated in the Mighty Mite family or are a result of many similar incidents, but it is certainly the most proven of all the auto-flowering strains. The fact that Mighty Mite is an inbred line and relatively true breeding for its auto-flowering trait would make it seem likely to have been a large contributor.

DJ Short has recently speculated that Ruderalis introductions into the drug cannabis gene pool likely came from repeated selections for early flowering traits from Indica based lines rather than actually being imported from Russia or surrounding countries (CC#39, Breeding Tips). Both of these scenarios are quite possible. General consensus is that all drug, hemp and feral strains of cannabis originated from the same source gene pool, therefore, Indica varieties would also have these auto-flower genes present somewhere in their genetic makeup.

Early flowering explored

The marijuana strains most of us have been familiar with begin flowering once the night period reaches the individual plant's critical night length. This critical length varies depending on where the strain originated. Generally, there is a critical period of darkness required to begin flowering, and a second slightly longer critical dark requirement for it to ripen completely.

Many Indica varieties begin to flower when the day length drops to about 13 1/2-14 hours, while Sativas will often not begin to flower until less than a 12 hour day length is achieved.

In comparison, many of today's Ruderalis/drug strain hybrids flower automatically when they reach a given maturity, regardless of photoperiod. Even under lights on 18 hours a day, they completely mature from seed to bud in less than 90 days.

I've seen test plants from Mighty Mite hybrid lines that were started outdoors in early March, and had completely finished by late July. This could indicate that crossing auto-flowering plants to those that are photoperiod determinant lengthens a genetically predetermined period required before non-photoperiod dependent floral onset.

A second scenario is that within the ruderal strains that have been introduced to the drug gene pool there also exists genetic information of photoperiod adaptation to north latitudes.

Many of these Ruderalis/drug hybrids are also known for being very sensitive to other environmental factors. Things such as cloning, letting plants go too dry or getting pot bound can easily send them into heavy flowering.

The big unknown that still remains in these new lines of marijuana is what is actually causing the flowering on a biological level? Is there an internal clock, a genetically predetermined number of cell divisions that must take place before the plant begins to put up buds?

Another possibility is that once night-induced flowering hormone levels accumulate to certain levels within the plant it will begin to flower.

If the flowering is not dependent on having a dark period, these new cultivars could prove useful in backyard city growing situations, where streetlights and other forms of light pollution often prevent proper maturation of photoperiod dependent strains.

Problems and pitfalls

As these genetics further penetrate the drug cannabis gene pool they have potential to cause both harm and good.

Imagine getting mothers up and going for your next big crop and finding that at 60 days they all begin to go into full flower. A costly inconvenience at the least!

However, the potential for great advances is also there for the taking. How about auto-flowering Haze strains that ripen in the middle of summer, in areas where previously even the earliest Indicas would not ripen in time? Commercial growers could pull two crops per summer without ever having to worry about shading!

Breeding climate

One of the largest problems associated with breeding outdoor varieties for northern latitude areas like Canada or Holland is that the climate puts no pressure on plants to produce high psychoactivity. In fact it selects for the opposite.

So long as the breeder is selecting for high potency on a multi-parent level, potency can be upheld. However, if this same breeding program were undertaken in an environment that naturally selects for high THC plants (like highland Colombia or Thailand) the resulting average desirable cannabinoid levels would be much higher.

There is likely a threshold effect on the potential of any given strain as related to the environment it is being selected in. By incorporating auto-flower genes into the north latitude outdoor marijuana gene pool, plants would be finishing under more direct sunlight and warmer weather. This environment is much more conducive to high THC levels, thereby raising the threshold level for the particular strain.

Ruderalis and hemp

It is very likely that Ruderalis varieties have already made for an important advance in hemp cultivars. The variety FIN314 was developed from genetic material originating in Russia and seems to have the same auto-flowering trait noted in Mighty Mite and other hybrids.

FIN314 seeds that accidentally germinated in a Quebec farmer's field in early April were found in full flower by early June.3 Along with adding the possibility of twin crops in a season, this allows the oilseed variety to finish short enough to be easily harvested by current machinery, which clogs when fed the standard taller hemp varieties.

The genetic history of the parents of FIN 314 is unknown, other than that they were acquired from a germplasm collection from Russia. However, it is believed that at least one of the parents was a Ruderalis accession.4 If the widespread adoption of FIN314 by hemp farmers is any indication of the future of Ruderalis/drug hybrids with pot growers, there will be a mass dispersal in the coming years.

Buyer beware

There are still many commercially offered Ruderalis hybrid strains that are very low quality and should barely be classed as drug varieties. At the same time, the finest Canadian outdoor pot to have crossed my path so far was from Mighty Mite derived lines that were harvested in July and August.

The future seems clear for Ruderalis/marijuana hybrids. As many governments ease up on antiquated cannabis laws, more and more people will take up growing. A couple of auto-flowers on the back deck will likely fit the lifestyle of many more folks than would an indoor grow room.

Demand for stabilized, auto-flowering hybrids of high drug value, in combination with saner drug laws, will pressure marijuana breeders to move forward on bringing these to fruition.

Until then, the ability to have marijuana crops maturing at any time of the growing season should wreak havoc on CAMP style police tactics that have been accustomed to only searching for plants one or two months of the year. This, if for no other reason, seems ample enough to plant some auto-flowerers today!

References

1 Small, Ernest. 1979. The Species Problem in Cannabis Science & Semantics. Volume 1: Science. Corpus Information Services Limited. In cooperation with Agriculture Canada and the Canadian Government Publishing Center. pp.121-127
2 Poole, MIchael. Romancing Mary Jane: A Year in the Life of a Failed Marijuana Grower. Greystone Books.
3 Przytyk, Sasha. Undated article. FIN 314 in Canada, Gen-X research Inc. Regina, Sask.
4 Callaway, JC, and TT Laakonen. Undated article. Cultivation of Oilseed Varieties in Finland. Department of Pharmaceutical Chemistry, University of Kuopio, Finland.

boomer2

The return of Ruderalis

QuoteWhat I said is that kids steal so the can use pot because they cannot afford to buy it because they should be in school getting an education.

Yes, however you reword it, it still sounds like pot makes kids steal. I will say that it's probably not good for kids (hear that Teo), because they don't know how to handle it. So in that sense you have a point. My point was it should be legal for adults and I am very tired of hearing the same old "it's to protect the children" crappola. They use that line all the time. Anytime they want to take away more of our rights, it's to protect the kids. Censor the internet, take away harmless compounds, censor anything they call porn, etc. Go back a couple hundred years and it was illegal not to go to church unless you had a good excuse. Have to protect the children you know.

I've heard about several of those cases. You do always come up with interesting material.

This is a relatively confusing thread (coming to it late), but I wanted to say a few things. Paraphrasing a few posts:

"This is why growing these plants is (should be) legal..."

Is and Should Be are two different things.

I am not a lawyer, but I've spoken to competent lawyers, and the fact of the matter is that if you're growing a plant that contains a scheduled substance, you could be prosecuted for possession of that substance.  This is not to say that LEO would do this, but they could if they wanted to. If people take the risk because they are aware of the situation and decide to, that's their business. But making claims to the contrary clouds the issue, makes people less able to make conscious decisions, and is frankly unethical.  Please don't speculate when other people's freedom is on the line, without at least marking your posts as speculative. [The fact that some people don't know the difference between fact and speculation is another issue, one which I believe results from people growing up deeply in media culture -- where fact and opinion are often conflated -- but alas that's not something to be taken up in this thread. Suffice it to say that "kids today..."]

One very important subtlety here, that is often misunderstood. An extraction does not have to be performed for the act to be illegal. Intent does not have to be demonstrated for the act to be illegal. Sorry.

"Can we claim ignorance of the law?"

Not in a formal sense, but there is one way where ignorance can some to your defense. You cannot claim ignorance of the law (for example, I didn't know that X was illegal), but if you can convince a court that you didn't know a plant contained an illegal substance, then you have a good chance of going free. For example, the only way that you can legally grow San Pedro is to convince a court that you didn't know it contained mescaline (fat chance for anyone on this board). Now, risks come in different sizes, and it is extremely unlikely that anyone would be prosecuted for this; as has been pointed out, San Pedro is a common landscaping plant in warmer climates, but the fact remains: we live in an absurd, Orwellian society, and you could be arrested for growing it if it appealed to the whim of LEO.  

So this defense could best be described as the "white-haired old lady defense." In other words, all of those white-haired old ladies growing opium in their gardens would probably walk if arrested, because they could credibly convince a court that they didn't know common garden poppies contain opium. This defense would probably not work for a 19 year-old stoner with PIHKAL in his backpack and cookies to poppies.org in his browser. [This may not be the best example, because the laws on poppy straw are fairly complex, but remember: ignorance of misunderstanding of the law is not a defense.]

So complex is our legal system that just about anyone could be arrested at any time, and like the protagonist in a Kant novel we may not even know what we've done.

Amom, I disagree totally with what you are saying about the plants themselves being illegal. This has been discussed elsewhere, perhaps you would like to start a new thread for that? I would like to see a single case in which this happened. You say:

"For example, the only way that you can legally grow San Pedro is to convince a court that you didn't know it contained mescaline"

They are sold in home depot, many other places and grown all over the country. Show me one case where simple possession of the plant absent evidence of extraction resulted in a prosecution let alone a conviction. Same with poppies and so on. I've had this discussion with others and they always end up saying that their interpretation of the law is correct and the fact that it never happens is beside the fact. Did you know that star jasmine contains ibogaine, a scheduled substance? A schedule 1 substance in fact? This too is widely grown and widely available. The number of plants commonly found which contain some illegal substances is very high.

In Hawaii, a woman in her 80s was charged with importing marijuana seeds into the United States as bird seed, which is basically legal in most states, bird seed that is, however, marijuanja seeds are against the lawn,

I cannot find the case but the prosecutor was described as an asshole.

Here is a law allowing military religious use of peyote.

Quote"Military Will Allow Religious Peyote Use"
The Seattle Times, April 16, 1997
by Martha Mendoza

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - Native American soldiers will be allowed to take the hallucinogen peyote as part of their religious ceremonies under new guidelines adopted by the military.

Yesterday's announcement ends years of pain for Marine Staff Sgt. Shawn Arnold, who said he had been told not to practice his faith.

"I wake up every morning, and I don't have that full feeling of freedom because I have to consider that hey, anytime, it could be this day that they decide to prosecute me," said Arnold, 38, a platoon leader at the Quantico, Va., Marine base.

Arnold, who hails from the Navajo reservation in Shiprock, N.M., said he had twice been threatened with court-martial because of his religion.

Peyote is a small cactus with psychedelic properties that grows naturally in southern Texas. While it's illegal for most people, federal law permits peyote use by the 250,000 Native American Church members.

The theology centers on the belief that peyote brings peace of mind, helps people think good thoughts and heals illnesses if one sincerely believes and concentrates.

The change in policy was hailed by Frank Dayish, president of the Native American Church of North America.

"This opens some doors for our church, and it marks the first sanctioned use of a hallucinogen by members of the armed forces," Dayish said.

The new peyote policy applies to any of the 9,262 Native Americans in the service - 0.6 percent of the military population - who use the drug to follow their faith.

"If they're using peyote in their religious practice, it's a sacrament, not a drug, just as sacramental wine is not considered a drug," said Air Force Maj. Monica Aloisio, a Pentagon spokeswoman.

The policy change stems from the 1994 American Indian Religious Freedom Act, which allows Native Americans to use peyote as religious sacrament.

The guidelines, which allow Native Americans to answer "No" when asked if they have ever used drugs, still are being drafted.

Peyote is usually eaten but can be smoked. It causes sweating, heightened attention, wakefulness and - sometimes, but not always - hallucinations.

Only enrolled members of Native American tribes may use peyote, the guidelines say. It may not be used, possessed or brought aboard military vehicles, vessels, aircraft or onto military installations without permission of the installation commander.

Chaplain Capt. Mel Ferguson, executive director of the Armed Forces Chaplain's Board, said Native Americans may use peyote in religious services while the guidelines are being finalized.

"When people are allowed to practice their faith and nourish the spiritual dimension of their lives, that promotes and enhances military readiness," Ferguson said.

And teen gangs selling drugs.

QuoteBlame It On Prohibition - Morris, NJ Teens Run Drug Rings
"Morris cops find teens running drug rings
Students more comfortable buying from peers"

The Star-Ledger [Newark, NJ], April 6, 1997
By Margaret McHugh
Star-Ledger Staff

Teen gang Morris County's escalating teenage drug problem has taken an alarming twist in areas like suburban Mount Olive, where youths are setting up shop as dealers and are drumming up business from area high schools.

There's been a big boom since the beginning of the year," said Lt. Mark Spitzer, who heads Mount Olive's narcotics unit.

In the past six weeks, police broke up two organized teenage drug rings and are investigating four similar cases in which youths are selling cocaine, heroin, marijuana and "club" drugs - such as Ecstasy and "Special K" - to other children.

Two drug operations headed by teenagers in neighboring Roxbury and Washington Township were infiltrated in January by undercover detectives, who arrested 11 people and seized $3,000 in LSD, marijuana and heroin and $2,200 in cash.

"This is new for us. It's never been this organized," said Mount Olive Officer Joseph Kluska, department spokesman.

The problem is countywide, Morris Country Prosecutor John Dangler said. "We're seeing more and more cases" in which teenagers "are the ones doing the major distributions," rather than just working for adult drug dealers, Dangler said.

"The common denominator is the age group: The extremely young, brazen crowd," Mount Olive narcotics Detective Michael Patchunka said.

Lt. Thomas Polio, who heads the prosecutor's narcotics task force, said more teenagers are going to New York and other cities for "raves," all-night dance parties where drugs are sold openly.

"It's the open-air market coming to suburbia," Polio said. "They think, `If they can do that there, we can do that here.'"

'Teenagers are playing the middle man," buying drugs in New York City, Paterson, Newark and East Orange and re-selling them in Morris County, Spitzer said.

A 18 year-old recovering drug addict named Jason, who also dabbled in dealing, said there is a comfort level in buying from peers.

"I felt I could trust them a little more, said Jason who twice bought marijuana from teenagers in Mount Olive and often bought cocaine from both teenagers and adults in his hometown of Morristown.

Jason, who has been in a residential drug treatment program at Daytop Village Inc. in Mendham for 10 months, said he used to buy drugs in restrooms in Morristown High and even in classrooms. While in class, he would place money in a textbook, pass it to a classmate, and the book would come back to him with cocaine in it, he said.

More than 50 Mount Olive teenagers were counted among the customers of the two raided teenage drug operations in Mount Olive, and those in Roxbury and Washington Township.

Police arrested six Mount Olive teens and a 14-year-old Parsippany boy Feb. 28 on charges of running a small-scale drug operation out of a Brewster Place home in the Flanders section.

Detectives bought drugs during a two-month investigation and then seized a 1985 Dodge Daytona which police say was used to transport some of the suspects to and from suppliers in New York.

Police raided the Brewster Place home and seized five bags of crack cocaine and two bags of marijuana, as well as drug paraphernalia.

Three weeks later, two Mount Olive High students and an 18-year-old man who had attended the school were arrested in a drug-dealing operation.

Police raided the home of Mark J. Jaskulski, who lives with his grandparents, on March 22, and arrested Jaskulski and a 16-year-old girl on charges of cocaine possession and possession with intent to distribute. A 17-year-old boy was arrested two days later at the high school.

The Washington Township teenager believed to be selling heroin from his home had once bragged to police that "there's nothing you can do to me," Detective Patchunka said.

Punishments for juveniles are much less severe than those for adults, said Prosecutor Dangler, who feels that must be changed to stop the teenage drug trade. But he's not sure how that can be accomplished, he said.

Getting caught selling drugs has got to be made "an unpleasant experience, (so) they don't want to revisit the juvenile justice system," Dangler said.

All types of juvenile crimes in Morris County are on the rise climbing from 800 juvenile prosecutions in 1995 to 1,100 last year - and 75 percent of them are linked to drugs, the prosecutor said.

[Note the teens were apparently not trafficking in alcohol or cigarettes, which are regulated. - ed.]

There are hundreds of such news items on the internet about teens and selling illicit drugs.

A few days ago some kid at a 7-11 tried to get me to buy him a pack of cigarettes.  anyone who would do this for a kid can go to jail.  For a kid to think an adult is stupid enough to do so is usually a sting from a cop watching from across the street or in a car near by.  I have seen idiots busted near the cigar pipe and bong shop with the american Indian sculpted statue on the U Ave before over buying cigarettes,  once when a kid asked an undercover cop to buy him a pack.

They do street drug stings on the ave every now and then.

Ten years ago, they have these portable jail vehicles and parked by Tower Records and would bust the crack and pot dealers on Friday and Saturdays on the Ave, including many shoplifters.  A majority of these people who dealt drugs came form the south side of Seattle to the U-District to sell their drugs.

If you live in Seattle and know the district then you can tell the dealers who hang out at the bus stops near the rite aid aand father up near the jack in the box.

Anyway, some have botanicals and some have chemicals and a larger portion were shop lifters.

Today they no  longer have the portable jails there but they have cop punishment patrol (bicycle fuzz). I call them the punishment squad because I think that those who ride bikes did something wrong. If you are a cop and can ride in a car, I doubt that many would request bicycle patrol.

boomer2

Boomer, we all know pot is illegal. I'm not sure what your point is on that with the pot seed issue? You seem to toss in a lot of irrelevant stuff. Teen gangs, sure, but cigarettes, what has that to do with anything? Was there a question about the fact that kids commit crimes? Why did you bring that out, is it to say pot should be illegal?

Stoney,

Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so if you're really interested, you should ask one. But here are a couple of things to consider.

First of all, the following is a new article that describes a couple that was arrested for growing poppies:

The Poppy Paradox. (//http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v98.n1065.a05.html) It originally ran in the San Luis Obispo County NewTimes. A few salient quotes from it:

QuoteAsked why the poppy charge was dropped, Dennis Schloss, the deputy district attorney prosecuting Dunbar and Harrison, said, "I was not satisfied that we had adequate proof of knowing possession of opium in that case."

In other words, the charges were dropped because the prosecutors didn't know if they could demonstrate the knowledge that the plants contained a schedule 1 substance, thus substantiating my claim that the defense that works is the white-haired one, not the "I didn't extract" one.

Some more quotes:

QuoteSchloss is more certain about answers to questions that many innocent gardeners wouldn't even know to ask.

"Is it possible to possess opium while it's still in the poppy? Of course," Schloss said.

...

Nonetheless, our country's drug laws put possession of the opium poppy - just the plant, regardless of whether the drug has been extracted - in the same felony category of such Schedule II narcotics as cocaine, morphine, and methamphetamine.

...

Unfortunately, a large bed of these flowers is a felony, even for the gardener who never intends to extract the opium and who bought the seeds from a company that didn't even identify the Papaver somniferum as the opium poppy.

...

"The law does require `knowing possession,'" said Schloss.

What of the gardener reading this article, or otherwise learning the opium poppy's secrets? With that knowledge, the gardener goes from growing flowers to committing felonies without any change in her actions.

But enough about poppies. What about some other substances?

The following was published in 2002 in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, about a case that some here know about, and describes a man who was arrested for the importation of certain plants:

QuotePate also noted that DMT exists naturally in other plant life, including some grown by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to prevent soil erosion, and in the human body.

But [US Magistrate] Baverman found that the Controlled Substances Act, while not specifying the vines or leaves as illegal substances, covers "any material" that contains DMT. "When Congress speaks clearly, the court must follow what Congress has stated," the judge wrote.

It is very clear that the Controlled Substance Act treats a plant containing a controlled
substance as a controlled substance. What's more, if you look at the act, you will see (section 802(22)):

QuoteThe term 'production' includes the manufacture, planting, cultivation, growing, or harvesting of a controlled substance. (emphasis added)

So planting is the same as production, and plant is the same as the substance, therefore growing a plant is the same (in the eyes of the law) as producing a drug. And as was shown in the case of the poppies (above), what matters is demonstrating knowing intent -- that is, if you know the plant has a controlled substance, you can be arrested.

You can disagree with me, but the law is very clear.

And I never said that you would be arrested for growing a plant. I said that you could be.  Yes, the Home Depots of the world have lots of mescaline cactus. But that doesn't change the law.

QuoteAnd I never said that you would be arrested for growing a plant. I said that you could be. Yes, the Home Depots of the world have lots of mescaline cactus. But that doesn't change the law.

No but it makes it a crazy fucked up world.

We as human beings... should have the right to cultivate any botanical we please...

We should, but we don't.

And from this cheap seat, there are three options......

1 - Walk the walk.

2 - Talk the talk.

3- Walk and talk.

Most realize the first two are mutually exclusive. Take Carl Olsen, for instance. Carl walked rasta the walk for many years. Then he got busted big time. After that, he decided to talk the talk as an advocate for legalization of da kine. However, Carl knows he is no longer able to walk that walk. Not if he wants to talk that talk. Too much risk to his freedom. Especially after a first strike.

Which leads us to choice #3.....

This is the quickest rout to incarceration, imo. Walk a walk frowned upon by our esteemed gubmit and shout it from the rooftops. Post pictures on the net and make public attempts at purchases involved with the walk in question. And maybe don a symbolic ghost shirt of worthless paper.

In nature, an injured herd member attracts the attention of predators. Fortunately, its usually only the weak and injured that get taken down. But that's not always the case.

lw

Yes L.W. I'm just a little injuryed lamb...

BAAAAAA!!

Aahahahahah!!!

The little injured lamb drawing predators attention to the herd.

lw

An excellent metaphor.

Amom, you have brought up a case involving importation. That is not what we are talking about here. The ruling you cited, although you gave no link so we could see what circumstances were involved, is about a totally different type of situation. It would have precedent in the circuit or district that that particular court covered. It would not set precedent in any other district and certainly not for the whole country. Only a US supreme court ruling has that kind of authority. So while interesting, it's a case that does not cover the kind of situation we are talking about and would not have any relevance except in the area of that court's jurisdiction.

Then we have the case in which someone was charged with possessing opium in the form of poppies. Congrats on finding that one case, shows the power of google, doesn't it? However, even in that case the charges were dropped. Cops can arrest people for anything they like, then it's up to prosecutors to decide whether to go forward. Even then, there is the option of a false arrest lawsuit or malicious prosecution lawsuit if someone is falsely or improperly prosecuted or arrested.

Naturally, the prosecutor is not going to say there was no basis to charge the people in the first place. That would be like admitting he blundered. He is no doubt embarrassed to have to drop charges after having the poor people arrested and he hopes to deflect any lawsuits by claiming he was on solid ground. Not solid enough to go to trial, which tells you a lot all by itself. I see a newbie or overly zealous prosecutor here. We don't know if there was a lawsuit afterwards or not. I find it interesting that this is the only case you could come up with. Did you try findlaw? Clearly, this did not pave the way for similar charges or a crackdown on poppy growing.

You are entitled to your opinion and you may even find a lawyer or two who will be of the same opinion. It's a rare issue that does not have opinions on both sides. The fact of the matter is that people are not being charged with growing poppies, cacti or other plants containing illegal substances. Star jasmine is grown all over and even knowing it contains ibogaine does not make it illegal. Try getting the cops to charge someone who grows it, or cactus, poppies etc. It matters not if they know it contains illegal things.

What would make a difference is if they had intent to extract the illegal substances. Clearly, if they were caught extracting that would be enough to charge them with. Normally, under conspiracy laws the person must make an overt act of some kind before they can be charged. You could make the case that if they stated their intention to do an extraction, they might be charged. I would call that an extremely weak case. Prosecutors rarely take weak 'fluff' type cases like that unless they also have something else to charge them with and can use that as a bargaining chip. "We will drop that if you plead guilty to xyz", that sort of thing.

Another reason they won't do it is because of selective prosecution which opens them up to many constitutional and other challenges. If they pick you out of all the people doing it to prosecute, why did they pick you? That is a whole other issue.

There are tons of laws still on the books that are no longer being prosecuted. Is it still against the law to wear the color red on sundays in rural Alabama which may have such a law or other silly outdated laws on the books? No, it will not be prosecuted and if it was, it would not stand up and I see a juicy lawsuit coming out of it if any prosecutor was foolish enough to try.

As I say, you are entitled to your opinion but the fact is, no one is going to jail for any of those things.

I agree and I believe your pretty much safe to grow any botanical you please.

Good post Stone.

Quote from: "Stonehenge"Amom, you have brought up a case involving importation. That is not what we are talking about here. The ruling you cited, although you gave no link so we could see what circumstances were involved, is about a totally different type of situation.

Understood. I brought it up to illustrate a point that is often disputed here -- that the plant can be considered the substance. You've done the same thing (speaking about arcane laws in Alabama, for instance) so I would have thought that the intent would have been understood.

I didn't post a link out of discretion for a member here (who was involved in the case). I'll PM you the link if you would like.

QuoteThen we have the case in which someone was charged with possessing opium in the form of poppies. Congrats on finding that one case, shows the power of google, doesn't it? However, even in that case the charges were dropped.

I quoted one case (the first that came up) because you had asked for one case. The search results imply that there are others, too.

I imagine the charges were dropped because they also found marijuana growing, and that would be a lot easer to prosecute. The prosecutor may have been inexperienced and over-enthusiastic as you've said,  but in his shoes I would have done the same thing. Demonstrating knowing possession with MJ is a no-brainer.

QuoteYou are entitled to your opinion and you may even find a lawyer or two who will be of the same opinion. It's a rare issue that does not have opinions on both sides. The fact of the matter is that people are not being charged with growing poppies, cacti or other plants containing illegal substances. Star jasmine is grown all over and even knowing it contains ibogaine does not make it illegal. Try getting the cops to charge someone who grows it, or cactus, poppies etc. It matters not if they know it contains illegal things.

Well, we'll just have to disagree. At least I've quoted some people in the legal profession and some relevant sections of the CSA to support my position. I respectfully challenge you to do the same. :) I understand that the law is complex and really only clarified in court, but if you, like me, can find a published reference to a DA or prosecutor who says something different than what I've said before, then I'd be surprised. For example, someone who says (as you've claimed) that intent to extract is the deciding factor.

QuoteAnother reason they won't do it is because of selective prosecution which opens them up to many constitutional and other challenges. If they pick you out of all the people doing it to prosecute, why did they pick you? That is a whole other issue.

I happen to agree here.

QuoteAs I say, you are entitled to your opinion but the fact is, no one is going to jail for any of those things.

We really don't disagree as much as you seem to think. As I've said before, the legal risk is obviously very low, and I know at least one lawyer who interprets the law the same as I do that grows botanicals with scheduled substances.

But "won't" vs. "can't" are different things. And I think it is important for people to realize they could -- even if it would be extremely unlikely. Like they say, knowledge is power. And even though it is very unlikely, it's more likely -- given our current political and legal environment -- than getting arrested for wearing red on Sunday.

Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl"I agree and I believe your pretty much safe to grow any botanical you please.

Cool. Have fun with your peyote/cannabis/coca garden.

Don't forget 'Shrooms, Khat, Poppies and Iboga!!!

The Following Botanicals Are Illegal in the U.S.A.-

"'Shrooms" ~ Psilocybe Mushrooms  

"Peyote" ~ Lophophora williamsii (Whole Lophophora genus in CA)

"Khat" ~ Catha edulis (Rumors of Khat being legal to cultivate)

"Opium Poppy" ~ Papaver somniferum

"Iboga" ~ Tabernanthe iboga

"Coca" ~ Erythroxylum coca

"Marijuana" ~ Cannabis

(Salvia D. in some States)

I'm not missing any illegal botanicals am I?

Teo, you are not safe to grow any clearly illegal plants or fungi. You know better.

Amom, you speculate that maybe the poppy charges were dropped because they had something else "easier" to prosecute. I speculate that it was because he did not want to be sued. The fact is, and you agree on this, that the charges were dropped and not moved forward.

"I understand that the law is complex and really only clarified in court"

That is correct. Case law is considered more important than the statute itself. Until a law, or interpretation of a law, is tested in court, it is considered unreliable and few prosecutors will want to be the first to go forward. Courts can decide that when the law seems to say A, it really means B. They can also strike down portions of the law or the entire law itself. The fact that the one time it was brought to charges and then dropped, tells you the prosecutor did not like his chances of it leading to a conviction and more importantly, withstanding appeal.

You questioned "intent" that I brought up. Intent is a very important part of the law and comes from common law which much of our present day law is based upon. Intent is an important part of the mens rea or criminal state of mind needed to establish guilt. Here is a quote from wikipedia which does express the essence of the law while being simple enough for lay people to easily understand. I can dig up a more technical definition but this will do.

"In criminal law, mens rea â€" the Latin term for "guilty mind"[1] â€" is usually one of the necessary elements of a crime. The standard common law test of criminal liability is usually expressed in the Latin phrase, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty". Thus, in jurisdictions with due process, there must be an actus reus accompanied by some level of mens rea to constitute the crime with which the defendant is charged"

So as you see, an intent is usually required along with some overt act in order to be guilty of a crime.

I have no doubt that some prosecutors will agree with me on this but I'm not sure if any are on record as saying so. It would be like a republican saying the democrats are right and the repubs are wrong.

Go do your search and find me a case in which someone was charged just for cultivating poppies or any of the plants I've mentioned without evidence of extraction or illegal use. If not, it falls into the same category of unprosecuted crimes we have already discussed and which you seem to agree would have many defenses including selective prosecution.

Quote from: "Teotzlcoatl"I'm not missing any illegal botanicals am I?

Yes, you are. It's just that some of those are named in the various regulations (like the CSA), but there are many others. It depends upon what's in them.

And some of those are not explicitly named as far as I can tell. I mean, where does that list come from? Can you find any reference that shows that some of those are to be treated any differently than the other materials that have been discussed? Seriously, what is your reference, beyond postings on random drug boards?

The CSA names marijuana, poppy straw, coca leaves explicitly. Where did the other ones come from? Where, for example, are magic mushrooms named?

Who said anything about clearly and openly?

It depends on what Nation you live in...

QuoteAnd some of those are not explicitly named as far as I can tell. I mean, where does that list come from? Can you find any reference that shows that some of those are to be treated any differently than the other materials that have been discussed? Seriously, what is your reference, beyond postings on random drug boards?

The CSA names marijuana, poppy straw, coca leaves explicitly. Where did the other ones come from? Where, for example, are magic mushrooms named?

Erowid is one of the main sources I got for these. That list is concerning the USA only.

Dried Psilocybin containing mushrooms are def. illegal. Growing them? Who knows?

Khat may or may not be legal to cultivate, I think it is.

Which other ones would you contest?

If anybody would like to add or remove botanicals for the "Illegal USA Botanicals" list please post them with an explanation!

I THINK I've pretty much got it covered for the Nation, we could break it down state by state I suppose if the state differs from National law, for example, the whole Lophophora genus is illegal in CA.

Shitty, huh?

I'm going to have to say now Khat is legal to cultivate.

From what I can tell all the other ones are illegal in the USA, except maybe Coca leafs/plants, fresh mushrooms and Poppies.

I also still believe that it is our right to cultivate and possess any botanical in their living or dried forms.

*Update*- "Khat" ~ Catha edulis is legal to cultivate and possess in the USA.

I don't know for sure if Catha edulis is legal or not to grow in the US.  

I know greenstranger used to sell live plants for 20.00 and then by the time I was ready to place an order , they said they no longer sell them cause it was made illegal, im not sure if it was a federal law though.   It was once listed in Sunset Garden book as an ornamental plant according to their website.  

I know it will grow very well in Southern Georgia and throughout Florida.  

I don't see why it should be illegal.

When i lived in Florida i had a plant growing outside in the ground and when it got down to 20 F one night it was the only plant I didn't even bother to cover since I heard it can tolerate freezes and is a subtropical plant.   It was fine.  Ive heard it can tolerate  drought as well.  

I am so sick of people saying plants are bad.  

Truth is people are bad, look at what they do to the environment.  

Plants deserve to grow wherever they would like to.  Kudzu, Buckthorn, Purple Loosestrife, Peyote, Cannabis have done far less damage to ecosystems than humans have.    

Buckthorn didn't cut down huge areas of the amazon rainforest now did it?  

Ok -Peyote isn't invasive or a weed, i was just using it as an example since it is seen as bad like the other meantioned ones.  

Saying any plant is bad is absurd.  

Coca shouldnt be illegal.  Just cause some idiots in the US are addicted to it doesnt mean the US should fly over places in Latin America and spray dangerous chemicals on it as well as poison other food plants which make the native people sick.  

Hey I think coca should be what we should be waking up to everday, not that other crap called coffee.  

I hate coffee.  Id rather drink a cup of coca leaf tea or chew some leaves in the morning to wake up.  

Its alot better than drinking coffee or mountain dew.   At least coca provides alot of nutrients as well.    

Of course I could chew betel nuts but they have been linked to mouth cancer.  

Betel palms are good at absorbing copper from the soil. Probably more efficient than other plants are.   Betel nuts contain far more copper than is necessary and that is believed to be what causes the mouth cancer.  

Coca leaves absorb good nutrients from the soil.  Tobacco ive heard doesnt cause cancer because of the tar, it is the other toxic radioactive elements that tobacco plants are so efficient at absorbing.

I wish i lived somewhere tropical where I could grow all kinds of plants ( tropical fruits as well as medicinals and entheogens).  

Australia is nice but then again they have many botanicals they can grow and we can't such as Peyote, but then again Kratom I think is illegal there.  

There laws are just as dumb as ours in the US.

It doesn't matter where you live, these botanicals can be grown all over the world!

They can be grown everywhere but not legally.  

Peyote won't grow outdoors in Canada but it will indoors and it is legal to grow there.  

I was in Toronto onetime and i visited this store and they had peyote plants in the front window of the store.  

http://www.sacredseed.com/ (http://www.sacredseed.com/)

You cant see them on that picture but when you are inside the store that is where they are.  

I think thats pretty messed up how they are legal in Canada but the plant is native to the US, and Mexico.

Ya only two places in the world were it's natural haitat exist is the only two places in the world weres it illegal.

They should just write a big sign that says- "GOD YOU FUCKED UP, WHY'D YOU PUT THESE STUPID CACTI HERE? WE'RE GONNA MAKE YOUR CREATION ILLEGAL, YOU (GOD) MADE A MISTAKE!"

Hopefully one day I will have my own Ethnobotanical forums, here what I'd prohibit on my trade forums...


Prohibited Material on my trade forums-

Any and all non-botanical drugs, in fact you should only be trading botanicals or things related to botanicals, shamanism, etc.

Cannabis plant material containing THC (Hemp seeds are ok)

Mushroom material containing Psilocybin or Psilocin (Spores and Mycliuem are ok)

Dead or dried (non-living) mescaline containing Cactus material (Living Cacti and seeds are ok)

Erythroxylum coca plants or any plant material containing cocaine (seeds are ok)

Papaver somniferum plant material or any plant material containing morphine (seeds are ok)

No discussion of psychoactivity, drug preperation or anything that could be precieved as illegal in the trade forums.


Any other suggestions?

My suggestion is that you stop dreaming and speaking and do it.

That's good advice... if only I had large piles of money :)

Teo days:

QuoteThat's good advice... if only I had large piles of money :)

Hey, I get 1000 megabytes for $100 dollars a year.  I used about 450 megabytes of my 1000 megabyte space and my website has over 14,800 photographs on the site, including hundreds of pages of data related to shrooms.  And all of my images open to a full screen size of 7 1/2 to 8 inches high each.

So do like JRL said:

QuoteMy suggestion is that you stop dreaming and speaking and do it.

You do not need the amount of space I have for a small botanical website.There are already hundreds of them on the www.

A domain name cost $5.00 a year for a name for your site, usually paid at a price of $50.00 for five years or $100.00 for ten years.

Then you can buy website space from $50.00 a year for several hundred megabytes of space and can have your own forums.

It is not expensive and if you are old enough to work, then that small  amount of money is nothing for anyone who really wants to do what they keep dreaming of.

Over 2 and a half million people have visited my site in the last ten years, however, I started my site with 30 megabyes at $30.00 a month for a site selling hand-painted mushroom t-shirts.  Then i found a server who charged me $100 dollars for 1000 megabytes per year.  I pay for that out of my own pocket.

Some sites ask for donations and even you tried to ask members here to donate to several sites that you thought worthy of getting donations.

So why not start your own site. It cost almost nothing.

But look at 3DShrooms site sacredshrooms.org.

Only about ten to 15 posts in the last year period. Some sites get a few people looking but not posting or staying.  3Dshroom was an administrator at the Shroomery and  left the Shroomery after they gave him a hard time. So he took their skins and opened sacred shrooms.

 He posted a lot of pages copied from the shroomery and moved them to his new site, and I was a major contributor.  Now people come there and post porn-bots all over the site and no new posts from members.  

And now no more photographs at the site. All the original photos have gone.

So even if you start a site, you really need to have knowledge of what you are promoting and if you do not have that knowledge then no one will hang at your site.

Spirit Plantrs has also gone through several owners over the years, went down for a while, lost a whole program one time and came back again and now are back again.  And this is a good site.

Also it is not good to have sales promos at your site if you want to maintain a good membership.

I sell nothing on my site outside of my mushroom forays tours to Thailand every year which I have been doing since 1987.  2009 is my last group of explorers going to Thailand and Cambodia.  And they have to be in school (college level) in order to attend.

But JRL said it well.

Quit dreaming about it and do something about it.

boomer2

Excellent post boomer, I didn't know it could be so cheap... I'm not very good with computers.

I'll take what you said into consideration.

Quote from: "boomer2"But look at 3DShrooms site sacredshrooms.org.

Only about ten to 15 posts in the last year period. Some sites get a few people looking but not posting or staying.  3Dshroom was an administrator at the Shroomery and  left the Shroomery after they gave him a hard time. So he took their skins and opened sacred shrooms.

 He posted a lot of pages copied from the shroomery and moved them to his new site, and I was a major contributor.  Now people come there and post porn-bots all over the site and no new posts from members.  

And now no more photographs at the site. All the original photos have gone.

So even if you start a site, you really need to have knowledge of what you are promoting and if you do not have that knowledge then no one will hang at your site.

This is very true. It cost almost nothing to throw up a website, and in a few days you could install the software and learn it well enough to host a forum.

But there are hundreds of dead and dying sites in the Internet. Unless you can a) figure out why the Internet needs a new ethnobotanical site, b) provides it, c) tell people about it effectively, and d) maintain it, yours would just be one of those.

So the first question to be answered if you want to follow your dream is: what would this site provide that other's don't, and why would people want to spend there precious time there, as opposed to at other sites?

If you can answer that, the rest can follow.

(Points c and d, above, are important. A forum can only be as good as the community that uses it.

Good points Amomynous,

When I ran my first shroom site for six months, the sales sucked and I had to print shirts form my art, which was not as good selling as were the hand-painted shirts, then I added the shroom guide and put about 4,000 shroom images up and more people came, Then the Thailand and Cambodia shroom adventures and then I started to post my articles and published papers and then more and more people came to visit.

At erowid.org, I, along with Fire and Earth published the Safe-Pik Guide I wrote in the late 1970s. Inless than 8 years, almost one million people have viewed the book.  Image if I would have posted that book on the net and sold it for a dollar a copy to download it, the way all new journal publications are being sold on the net.

My Australian Shroom guide has been visited by over 300,000 people but about a few years back the counter loss itself when close to 800,000 views.  So it had to start over.

Pretty soon, my whole site download will be available as an e-book, along withmy Bibliography of Entheogenic Fungi and will be sold by Amazon as will my book, Magic mushrooms of the PNW, all new revised with all 22 species of psilocybian fungi from the Pacific Northwest.

My klids said it was time to start making money, but I sell more of my books, batiks, and hand-painted T-Shirts, as well as my CD-Roms, Only two left in print since one is now online at Erowid and they are working to post the Psilocybian cultivation for a free download as well as Magic Mushrooms in Some Third World Countries at erowid.org.

So I have made money form my work, from my art, expecially sad for the few who do not like my art whatsoever, because there are people who come on line and blast it yet both Alex Grey and Larry Carlson have both given me kudos for my art, as simple as it is.  So the criticism no longer bothers me.

I man I get $75.00 to $150.00 for a shroom - Thai batik which I design and then have my artist put to silk what I conceive.

Not bad at all. I also make money from posters and have a small following of those who support my art styles.

Anyway, Good post you made and I hope Teo takes all of the support and critiques to heart and someday has his own botanical site.

boomer2

Good advice Boomer.

Anybody esle got any other tips?

Irie Teo,
Sorry no further advice from me.....
But I noticed your earlier post about your morning tea........Cocoa leaf tea....what's it like?
I've never tried it......have them growing in abundance around here.....
The Mrs make cocoa tea every morning. Made from raw cocoa stick. hand made by mi mother-in-law.
The beans are fermented, dried, shelled, then roasted. Then pounded in a wooden mortar & pestle and squeezed into balls, bars or sticks and dried.
The bar is then grated into a pan of milk, some cinnamon quills, scratch of nutmeg, half pod of vanilla.
I'll have to send you couple of sticks.....the same route as the orchids.....later this month.
Respect
Z

I am having trouble posting this message.  The picture limit on my photo is 221 kb, so it is suppose to post.  Every time and this is the 4th, it refuses to post to I am going by reply instead of direct quote to see if this works..

Zaka said to teo:

But I noticed your earlier post about your morning tea........Cocoa leaf tea....what's it like?
I've never tried it......have them growing in abundance around here.....
The Mrs make cocoa tea every morning. Made from raw cocoa stick. hand made by mi mother-in-law.
Z

A possible confusion in what we are talking about here,  Cocoa is from the plant Theobromo.

'Theobromo cacao' â€" The Cocoa Tree

A little like an apple tree in size and shape, the cocoa tree grows best under the canopy of tropical rainforests. A native of the central and South American rainforests, cocoa trees are now cultivated in many tropical locations around the world. The cocoa tree has broad, dark leaves about 25 centimetres long, and pale-coloured flowers from which bean pods grow.
Cocoa beans

The cocoa tree bears two harvests of cocoa pods per year. Around 20 centimetres in length and half a kilogram in weight, the pods ripen to a rich, golden-orange colour.

Within each pod are 40-50 beans covered in a sweet white pulp. The coco a beans are purple in colour and two centimetres long. The raw beans undergo a lengthy process to prepare them for chocolate making.
Processing the cocoa bean

Processing cocoa beans ready for chocolate making involves six to seven main steps:

Fermentation: After harvest, the beans are fermented in heaps or 'sweating' boxes for about two days. During fermentation the cocoa pulp clinging to the beans matures and turns into a liquid.

Drying and bagging: Fermented cocoa beans are dried either in the sun or artificially.

Winnowing: The dried beans are cracked and a stream of air separates the shell from the nib, which is the part used to make chocolate.

Roasting: The nibs are roasted in special ovens at temperatures between 105 and 120 degrees Celsius. Roasting helps develop the chocolate flavour and aroma, removes moisture and darkens the colour to a rich, dark brown.

Grinding: The roasted nibs are ground to produce a fluid called cocoa mass, the main ingredient for chocolate making.

Pressing: The cocoa mass is pressed in powerful press machines to extract the cocoa butter, vital to making chocolate. A cocoa solid called presscake is left, and when this is milled it makes cocoa powder, which is used for drinking chocolate and cooking.

There is a final process which is called tempering: Uncontrolled crystallization of cocoa butter typically results in crystals of varying size, some or all large enough to be clearly seen with the naked eye. This causes the surface of the chocolate to appear mottled and matte, and causes the chocolate to crumble rather than snap when broken. The uniform sheen and crisp bite of properly processed chocolate are the result of consistently small cocoa butter crystals produced by the tempering process. This provides the best appearance and texture and creates the most stable crystals so the texture and appearance will not degrade over time. To accomplish this, the temperature is carefully manipulated during the crystallization.

The fats in cocoa butter can crystallize in six different forms (polymorphous crystallization). The primary purpose of tempering is to assure that only the best form is present.

The cocoa mass, cocoa butter and cocoa powder are then quality inspected and shipped, ready to be made into chocolate.


Theobromo cacao', meaning 'food of the gods', was prized for centuries by the Central American Mayan Indians.

Now there is the other plant with a similar name:


Coca:

co·ca ( ká¹"kÉ™ ) (plural co·ca)

noun
Definition:
 
1. dried leaves: the dried leaves of an Andean bush. Use: chewed as a stimulant, processed for cocaine and other alkaloids.

2. bush yielding cocaine: a bush whose leaves yield coca. Native to: Andes.  Latin name:
 Erythroxylum coca

Late 16th century. Via Spanish< Aymara kuka or Quechua koka

Now which plant are you referring to"

Oh yes, thought I would share this image from Amsterdam with all of you"

It was too large to post a 7 1/2 inch high image as most of mine are but the dpi made it t many pixels to post.

[attachment=0:4bm3zg8e]cafe1abc2.jpg[/attachment:4bm3zg8e]

Also Jonathan Ott wrote the definitive book on Chocolate.  (# The Cacahuatl Eater: Ruminations of an Unabashed Chocolate Addict (Natural Products Company) (1985) ISBN 0-9614234-1-2).  A true story of Ott and Chocolate. I brought Karl L. R. Janssen from New Zealand to Breitenbush Mushroom conference where I lectured along with Dr. Tjakko Stijve of Nestles in Vevey, Suisse.  Janssen brought Cadbury from New Zealand and Dr. Stijve brought fresh chocolate from Nestles and Jonathan had a double treat.  Both have written papers on magic mushrooms and other drugs and trace elements in fungi.  AS Jonathan Ott also has written on the mushrooms.

mjshroomer

Is this just your random post thread Boomer?

Teo, is SPF just your random forum???

You need to respect a man like Boomer.

Thanks jrl,

and Teo, I was responding to Zaka's question, not to yours.  You seem to have a problem with communication skills and with good members here attempting to give you good advice about sacred plants, nit as  some one recently posted, you need to do something instead of always talking about doing something.

You posted a pleasant reply to me about  advice I gave you on how cheap it is to make a web site at the top of this very page.

I then responded to Zaka's question to you in regards to Cocoa tea because he did not post what kind of plant he was referring to and I did not read the page before this one.

There are hundreds of thousands of psychonauts in the drug subculture on the internet who do not know that cocoa and coca are two different plants.

I quietly informed you in an earlier post that you really need to start listening to what people suggest to you or no one will take anything you post seriously.

I just posted good data regarding the two plants and you were very rude.

Normally I would not have even responded to this because it is obvious you have a hard time listening.  But since jrl intervened in this matter about your attitude, I therefore am nor responding like wise.

 It has been several weeks since I presented you with a good list of articles to read byu the late leading authority on Peyote, several which I noted were on my site and IU bet you that yo have never gone there and read a single article I suggested that you should check out.  One of them lists dozens of psychoactive plants including fish and insects which are psychoactive.

Have you graduated from High School?

You know there are many community colleges with botany courses on entheogenic plants in the United States.

Mark Merlin teaches Psychoactive Drug Plants every other semester at the University of Hawaii.

[attachment=2:1yf8xlo3]merlin'scourse1a.jpg[/attachment:1yf8xlo3]

[attachment=1:1yf8xlo3]merlin'scourse2a.jpg[/attachment:1yf8xlo3]

[attachment=0:1yf8xlo3]merlin'scourse3a.jpg[/attachment:1yf8xlo3]

Freeman Rhoades teaches a course on hallucinogenic mushrooms at Lane Community college in Eugene, Oregon in Lane County.

The last two pages of botany 401 are in the next post by me below this one

boomer2

Here are the last two pages of Merlin's Botany 401 course on Psychoactive Drug Plants.

[attachment=1:590n1fxb]merlin'scourse4a.jpg[/attachment:590n1fxb]

[attachment=0:590n1fxb]merlin'scourse5a.jpg[/attachment:590n1fxb]

You know Teo,

There are such courses like this one taught at many schools of higher learning in every state in the USA.

You should really check them out.

boomer 2

Continued in the next post directly below this one.

You just seem a little off topic that's all.

No offense was intented.

Boomer said-

QuoteAnd these plants (in your list of illegal botanicals), although not technically illegal to the point that you would probably not be prosecuted for having them in your home and yo are not selling them openly, then I doubt that anyone will bother you for having themin yor home.  And that includes all of the plants that most likely will never be legal in our lifetime in the Americas.

I'd say only poppies and cannabis would get you in trouble if discovered... possibly Peyote.