Spirit Plants - Discussion of sacred plants and other entheogens

What religion holds the most promise for saving humankind?

Interesting. I didn't know humankind was in need of salvation.

None of the above and/or all of the above would be my answer.

Salvation is an individual experience, imo. SO the only way you can possibly save humankind would be to save yourself. And as there appears to be many paths leading toward enlightenment, limiting options to those listed above wouldn't be prudent, imo.

lw

Ok how about saving the planet, in turn saving humanity?

I don't mean like- "You need jesus to be saved, kinda saved" I mean we're all gonna fuckin' die unless we fix the human situation (which includes the enviroment)

Good post tho, L.W. I like what you said...

Ah-so. You want to save the planet....

I used to think we maybe needed to save the planet, but at this point, I'm not so sure. It is egotistical, imo, to think humans have the capability to either destroy or save mama earth. Threats from a petulant child who has concocted a tempest in a teapot.

The only constant factor in earth's environment  since the dawn of time has been change.

lw

The same, none of the above, including al gores cult of hey look at me im important. This silly idea that the world is going to hell in a handbasket is getting old, it comes up with a new face every decade or so. The rainforest are being slashed and burned, but what should these people do live in squaller and disease at the mercy of nature, working themselves to a early grave for pennies a day, while we travel on paved roads to our air conditioned buildings, with internet access. China is damming rivers, so some farmers get uprooted, what about the millions the reservoir will benifit. I say slash and burn screw those westerners and their quest for enlightenment or a few extra days added to their already extended lives. Where would we be without early plants polluting the atmosphere with their deadly o2, or the coutless extinct species that left room for us. If their really is a higher being out their, I believe they would be discusted. Look at these jerkoffs begging for salvation, when really the only thing that can save you is you.

*shadow grins wickedly*

I think we all need to return to simple ways...

Read verse 80 in the "Tao Teh Ching" by Lao Tzu.

We're all going to fuckin' die if we don't...

I don't want to die, I want to raise a family and grow plants...

Ah, utopia, what a pipe dream. all the untouchables should just be content with their life, its all good.

not utopia... but not this... not what we have now... no, I don't like it,  not our society, not our culture, not our civilaztion...

Fuck you, for saying that about the untouchables, arrogant bastard.  :D

i am quite arogant, but i asure you i know who my father is. dont take things so personal, it was you who open this can of worms. can you not point that arogant finger at yourself? it was you whom introduced the tao te ching, verse 80. 'Appreciate your life and be content with your home;', which minds to keep society under control and the people in line.

Right on, Lucious.

lw

Excellent come back!!!

I meant no offense, I'm glad you are inteligent enough to not turn this into a school yard name calling contest. (Tho I did start it :) )

Again, excellent come back!

Quoteit was you whom introduced the tao te ching, verse 80. 'Appreciate your life and be content with your home;', which minds to keep society under control and the people in line.

But only by their own free choice, and not the will of others.

~Teotzlcoatl~

P.S.- I would have added more opitions to the poll, but the forums wouldn't allow me.

Quote from: "laughingwillow"Salvation is an individual experience, imo. SO the only way you can possibly save humankind would be to save yourself. And as there appears to be many paths leading toward enlightenment, limiting options to those listed above wouldn't be prudent, imo.

lw

That's good too!  :lol:

Interesting thread Teo, I'm not sure what has the most promise, though there I do make a distinction or preference for the non montheistic religions, they tend to have  scope for greater growth and understanding on the nature of things.  Though I remind myself they also have their fair share of dogma also !

The other different one there is shamanism, of which comes in many guises but to my mind does not involve dogma as such, more so it is a technique or variety of techniques at inducing the trance state.

I have found a few quotes  l've added below to help s understand all this (perhaps anyway) :

"Shamanic ecstasy is the real "Old Time Religion," of which modern churches are but pallid evocations. Shamanic, visionary ecstasy, the mysterium tremendum, the unio mystica, the eternally delightful experience of the universe as energy, is a sine qua non of religion, it is what religion is for! There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith in the intrinsic unity and integrity of the universe, in ourselves as integral parts of the whole; that reveals to us the sublime majesty of our universe, and the fluctuant, scintillant, alchemical miracle that is quotidian consciousness. Any religion that requires faith and gives none, that defends against religious experiences, that promulgates the bizarre superstition that humankind is in some way separate, divorced from the rest of creation, that heals not the gaping wound between Body and Soul, but would tear them asunder... is no religion at all!" Jonathan Ott

and,

"The contemporary World War on Drugs is nothing more nor less than the modern manifestation of the millennial struggle between state power and individual freedom; between the proselytizers of purely symbolic simulacra of religion - propagandists of what Blake called "pale religious letchery" - and the practitioners of the real thing - for religion is an experience, not merely a "social activity with mild ethical rules." This War on Drugs originally started as a War on Religious Experiences, and it is nothing new..."
â€"Jonathan Ott

Bushpig

Quote from: "Bushpig""The contemporary World War on Drugs is nothing more nor less than the modern manifestation of the millennial struggle between state power and individual freedom; between the proselytizers of purely symbolic simulacra of religion - propagandists of what Blake called "pale religious letchery" - and the practitioners of the real thing - for religion is an experience, not merely a "social activity with mild ethical rules." This War on Drugs originally started as a War on Religious Experiences, and it is nothing new..."
â€"Jonathan Ott

Bushpig

I agree.

On the other hand, there is a certain type of person who isn't willing to take the edicts of the ruling class at face value. And from that group, emerges a set of folks determined to explore their personal consciousness  regardless of the social stigma or consequences involved. I see this situation as a potential evolutionary step of consciousness that winnows out the weak, defined as those unable to break from the herd mentality.

lw

i cant vote because i feel that all of those texts hold some valid lessons and stories. each of them also contains stuff i can not take as part of my path.

i like to study all, then ideally try to apply the best i can what i feel can be beneficial in my life and the life of those around me.
then eventually, it seems it becomes more and more about the every day practice and learning, the texts just being there as nice reminders when one might need a bit of inspiration or poetic distraction even.
the texts with no practice are like talking about taste. One simply has to taste a banana to know what "banana" is.

This is certainly an interesting thread... I also, did not vote in the poll as I feel to cast a vote, would, by definition, be making a sort of assessment of supposed 'intristic value' on one belief system or another....

I think the texts are maps as much as anything, or metaphors. Since they point to things that are beyond words, taking them literaly would be a mistake, one that continues to be the source of much of the strife in the world

a little something to soothe a troubled world...

note: vedic mantra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaJPfnCi1t8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaJPfnCi1t8)

and a NA shaman version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq-1bxJc ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq-1bxJc7F0&feature=related)

I have a strong feeling that Buddhism contains deep wisdom within the practical techniques it teaches practioners.  I consider meditation a powerful personal ally.  That being said, I still feel modern shamanism is most able to blend, absorb, and creatively use the energies of all the various faith based traditions in ways singular religions simply can't.

Someone needs to explain "Modern Shamanism" to me.
To me it often seems like a "wannabe deep"-concept made by people doing some drugs and not diligent enough to do serious work, much like beat-zen. So they can say "I take ayahuasca, so im like a shaman... just like, in the concrete jungle". I hope I am wrong about this, and that I have only come across stupidkids version of it.
Someone please prove me wrong.

And I also feel I can't vote. Fuzz and JRL sums up my general idea well.
I would just like to add a quote and how I view the quote: "Wer eine kennt, kennet Keine" - it is said by Goethe on language and Müller on religion(The comparison of language and religion is especially used in various ways by Panikkar, who is very good on multireligious dialogue): As I view the meaning of it is, that if you only know one language, understand one religion, you know none. You have to at least know or understand two to understand the essense of language and religion.
It can also be said in the distinction of Faith and Belief, that Panikkar makes. Faiths connects us to the transcendent or the eternal, divine. Belief is how we express our faith. And this belief comes in many forms. As truth did not come into the world naked (i think from the gospel of John.. but i am not sure...).

Quote from: "Satori"Someone needs to explain "Modern Shamanism" to me.
To me it often seems like a "wannabe deep"-concept made by people doing some drugs and not diligent enough to do serious work, much like beat-zen. So they can say "I take ayahuasca, so im like a shaman... just like, in the concrete jungle". I hope I am wrong about this, and that I have only come across stupidkids version of it.
Someone please prove me wrong.

And I also feel I can't vote. Fuzz and JRL sums up my general idea well.
I would just like to add a quote and how I view the quote: "Wer eine kennt, kennet Keine" - it is said by Goethe on language and Müller on religion(The comparison of language and religion is especially used in various ways by Panikkar, who is very good on multireligious dialogue): As I view the meaning of it is, that if you only know one language, understand one religion, you know none. You have to at least know or understand two to understand the essense of language and religion.
It can also be said in the distinction of Faith and Belief, that Panikkar makes. Faiths connects us to the transcendent or the eternal, divine. Belief is how we express our faith. And this belief comes in many forms. As truth did not come into the world naked (i think from the gospel of John.. but i am not sure...).

Irie,
So I am just hours back from BVI where I had some very strange/weird as fuck things happen to me....
I'd like to try and explain them but it's going to take some time.....maybe a day or so...
As for modern shamanism......yes.......I believe that we are all shamans......we here in this time at this site for exactly that reason........!There is serious spiritual work to be done.....accept it.....and get to work on it.....real!!!
I had visions induced by not having enuff MJ........
which I now realize I have been using to suppress them......suppress is not the right word.....I feel it was more  aaaaaaarrrgh
Sorry have only slept 10 hours this week....
got to hit the sack....
Respect
Z

One aspect of shamanism that I feel many of us are involved with is that of helping to shape our reality consciously. To Participate consciously in the process of consciousness itself, and to the evolution of our spirit.

That's according to my limited understanding of shamanism.

Quote from: "dendro"One aspect of shamanism that I feel many of us are involved with is that of helping to shape our reality consciously. To Participate consciously in the process of consciousness itself, and to the evolution of our spirit.

That's according to my limited understanding of shamanism.

Um. Two problems. One: A conscious change of reality can end up being a very ego-centered shaping of reality. And this would then not be any different from the concept of modernity that has developed since the 1750s in the west, where man-created history has been center of attention for development....
Two: Say that it is different from One, and it then aims at destroying egoism. Then I see no difference from shamanism than any other religion. Unless you pull out your own dynamic from reality, and see yourself as not acting dynamically with it.

The definition would seem too vague and totally flatten out the concept of religion.

Zaka: Feel free to write something when you are back to normal, and try keeping mumbo-jumbo out from the forum here....

LOL Yeah, mon. Keep da mumbo-jumbo offa da mountain, please...  :cool2  

(Maybe the spr management can hold a pow-wow and determine once and for all just where the mumbo-jumbo comments belong; I say confine them to the cave. Maybe the science forum. But for all that's sacred, please, from this point forward, keep the mumbo-jumbled comments out of the Spirituality forum. Btw, I recommend the spr management set up time for a second meeting to determine just what constitutes mumbo-jumbo as opposed to garden variety, right-thinking topics/comments/conversations of a Spiritual nature. But maybe that's a topic for another thread, another day.)

lw

Irie,
Now I'm really confused. I thought that this was the section for Religious & spiritual discussion.....
Where I live they have a lot of Obeah....is that what is meant by mumbo-jumbo?
I haven't even gone there YET!
But Obeah is both a spiritual & a religious matter. So maybe valid on this board? No?
I do not subscribe to any organized religion......but I do have spiritual experiences.
Does that reduces them to Mumbo-Jumbo?
Respect
Z

Explain Obeah. Tell us what it is.. I don't know if it is mumbo-jumbo....
I have never heard of it before now, so would like to hear about it, and your spirituality.

LW: I can sense the irony of your comment. But I do think language has an important function in reality, so it would be nice with clarity on it.
But we could just talk bullshit.
I start.

So this morning, early fly out dont know shit fall down tired what is going on maybe it is me peeing in morning rain sun snow shit fuck.. balbalkjrjokhaslrkhfcalke<sdhclkzxfj fasjf opesjrkceaw

Zaka wasn't talking bullshit. I could understand his command of the english language just fine. Your last post, on the other hand, contained a fair amount of mumbo jumbo and therefore, under the rules you attempt to set above, shouldn't be allowed in this forum.

lw

True LW... I understand the sentences.. But I fail to see how he answers any of the "questions" put..

Maybe that is why I felt it was mumbo jumbo..
But I am looking forward to some more in depth answers from him.
It does seem like Zaka might now a lot more than he shows here, and I would like to see more from him on this subject.

I'm surprised that Obeah or as it's known in Hiati, Voodoo has not been brought up on this forum. Deserves it's own thread.......Although I think that many will just dismiss it as Mumbo-Jumbo.....
You tell me if what I experienced is Mumbo-Jumbo.
Events included telepathic connections with complete strangers, finding lost items remotely, spiritual healing, communications with past life spirits & future messages received.
All this whilst dancing around Fire Balls & Totem poles at a major energy center. This was with the Caribs and others (modern Shamans) attracted to the energy center on the full moon.
On more than one occasion having folks around me tell me I'm full of shit..(Yeah I get use to it)..only to have to eat their words later...
As I said a very strange week......
Working on re-establishing equilibrium.
My mountain top is a free speech zone![attachment=0:b05i7s5c]100_1563.jpg[/attachment:b05i7s5c]View from my back door.
Respect
Z

Very nice hill...On another note, I'm glad we didn't get rid of all of Teo's posts.

St. Lucia?

lw

Quote from: "laughingwillow"St. Lucia?

lw

:smoke:3
Respect
Z

I've found a lot of wisdom in the vedic and hindu texts and myths.  

And I've been known to say that hinduism is a not infrequent side effect of certain entheogens.  Of course, to be fair, it's a religion that clearly has some strong entheogenic roots.