well, i just banned him.
not sure what we should do with him and maybe banning wasnt right but i think this needs discussion.
he might be a nice chap in RL and all but the way he communicates in IRC just pisses off alot of people. or maybe thats just my impression and im beeing the dick here, i dunno - but would people still add their thoughts to this?
best regards,
senz
He adds nothing to the chat except much info about ADD & amphetamine. And don't forget that "alcohol is toxic and bad for you!"
Pissing people off seems to be his agenda and it gets him attention though
he claims to have autism and that his behavior is "not his fault".
I have no problem at all with banning him.
If you are OP'd and feel the need to... then as far as I am concerned,
please do. Most often we remove bans after a day.......
Tolerance should be practiced, however we have lost good folks in
the past because of people like him and I won't sit and wait for that to happen again.
I think he adds a lot of good info about neurochemical engineering, which is his thing, but I don't like our place getting nasty. Fiend has been around for a very long time and I would like to see him have chances to participate but not at any cost. It is a balancing act and it is up to the op on duty to make the call. I'd let him back in, on notice.
I'm with Cassie. There are some moments when Fiend is not the nicest but I do not think a perma ban is in order. I doubt anyone will leave just because of one individual. Ignore is a nice feature of irc.
I don't do chat but I agree we don't want people to be nasty. Personal attacks will drive away new members. A temporary ban might be in order. We don't want to permanently ban someone who may be a good contributor and might be persuaded to clean up his act.
Fiend has been around a long time... which is why I don't think he will ever change. Eddy banned him (with the username m0x) many times, years ago.
Now, after removing the ban I set a few days back, Senz felt he needed to be banned again. He has now been banned 3 times (each temporarily) this week alone.
I agree fully that people should be given chances... but when is enough BS enough?
and as a sidenote:
there is a point at which tolerance becomes ignorance.
Cass, I don't feel his info is worth the bullshit. And is any of it accurate? How do you know?
I for one don't have time for it, if he's back I'm gone.
If he's that bad then lets get rid of him. And his alter egos if they pop up.
I am a sucker for tolerance, but in this case I am not eager to argue he stays, he's been rude to me on a number of occasions. And theres no contest if its a weigh up between JRL and him.
Boooshpig
If he has already gotten several warnings and been temporarily banned, then he had a chance to clean up his act. Several chances, it sounds like. The name Mox sounds vaguely familiar. I don't know if it's the same person but he has had warnings here before under this name. A brand new name might be kicked out for one offense. A long time member gets more slack but not unlimited slack.
Who wants to join a forum where people get treated rudely? Argue against the other person's opinion or point of view but do not attack them personally.
Just my point of view.
Well, he has changed and is presenting himself much better than he used to. I do remember him as m0x. Now while I'm not arguing for the ban to be removed I think keeping it in place for say a month +- a week is in order, then, removing the ban w/o saying anything. See if anyone even notices. He may just not show up again for a long time like last time he left. Of course I for one would not stand to lose JRL or any other long time regulars. I must say my longevity has saved my tail numerous times. Though, sometimes, enough is enough. As an aside, I bring your attention to his length of time being away already and possibly not counting his month/weeks ban until it is agreed upon. I may be too lenient for some, tho, I'm not one to pass judgment as I also live in a glass house.
There has been a general consensus in the direction I was moving. If there are any issues you would like to discuss please pm me on the board or in chat.
Well, I dunno about a consensus.... but I'm not going to argue the details.
I don't think taking it to PM is in order tho. Best to discuss here I think... that way if he acts up again, it's all in writing. Besides, this thread gives people a chance to discuss this without having to be in chat or whatever.
Seriously, I doubt he will change but, I'm also not arguing for a permanent ban. A permanent ban really wont work anyways as there are ways to get around it... like using a proxy.
If you guys want to give him another chance, that's fine by me. Really tho, this involves everyone in the chat so, lets leave this discussion open and get other opinions if there are any. Speak up if you have any other thoughts!
My consensus came from those in chat.
I think if someone has such a problem with fiend that they won't rejoin the channel because of that, they are the ones with a problem. Ignore commands work really well as someone else mentioned.
I think the main thing fiend is offensive to is certain peoples ego's. I could see using temporary bans maybe but I doubt he is going to return if he is banned too many times anyways. Really I don't see what he could possibly say that would be so offensive to you guys, yeah, he doesn't have any problem with arguing his opinions strongly, he may say something like, taking a specific drug is stupid. It's not something that should really piss you off.
Apparently you've missed most of what this whole post is about. What he says about peoples drug choices is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
How about the day he spent hours demanding that someone admit they were wrong, because he declared they were wrong? I copied a couple of his comments because I knew this would come up.
Quote[19:54:55] <fiend> yes because you dont want to admit you are wrong
[19:58:59] <fiend> ObOdAoUr, how is knowing what someone is saying wrong and trying to get them to admit it make you an egomaniac
[20:10:23] <fiend> at some point in all the time i've been here when i have not made a single mistake afaik and argued millions of things, never ever being wrong,
i would've hoped people would just start to trust me
[20:10:46] <fiend> people cling onto their beliefs so much
That was only ONE fraction of the entire argument that went on and on.
The other point that hasn't been brought up is that he has his own chat room and has for a while. In fact, half of the time he spends in #spiritplants, he is advertising it and asking people to go there.
Banning people either temporarily or permanently is how order is kept in IRC channels all over the net. I think ours is the only one that never bans anyone... except maybe now. Why is this such a big deal? Do you keep your doors wide open at home? Do you let anyone just walk into your living room and start an argument? Honestly I don't know why we have admins OR ops in the room if they aren't allowed to use their good judgment on occasion.
I think it's fairly obvious you've taken something he has said way too personally. I think trying to get someone to admit they are wrong, even if done repetitively is a really small offense. And no spiritplants isn't the only place that rarely bans people, I've ran channels or had higher access in channels where it was exactly the same. It's called respecting someones freedom to express their own opinions. If the entire channel didn't want someone there, than there is no point to them being there and it'd make sense to remove them. But that isn't the case here. I have had problems with fiend in the past and I really dislike his attitude and egotistical tendecies. He can be very obnoxious and will not back down. But I still don't think he has done anything to warrant being removed. If it's dissing someones ignorant use of a drug, disagreeing fervently with someones opinion or just going a bit overboard trying to get someone to admit they are wrong, the fact remains the thing getting hurt here is a few peoples ego's. Seriously, if a few people want him to be able to stay and a few people don't, why can't the people who don't like what he has to say just ignore him? The only reason I can see is you and others want revenge for what he's said that offended you and are using the guise of protecting the channel or whatever to get rid of him.
Just to clarify what I meant:
Despite the fact that you can ignore someone and no longer see what they type, people tend to refuse to do this and are only satisfied when the person is removed. They will make many excuses, such as they don't want the person bothering other members and such. But the fact remains that if you aren't satisfied with not seeing what the person types, you've turned it into a personal issue and are looking for more than just cessation of whatever is happening, you want to hurt them specifically because of it. I could see how when people like JRL say that either fiend leaves or they do, you can honestly say you want him gone for the sake of the channel, but JRL could just learn the ignore command too opposed to being stubborn and only being satisfied with hurting fiend by having him removed.
I think the point is, this chatroom is a cyber home for many...pressing ignore is not an acceptable option...we should not have to! If someone is not partaking in chat in a mature reasonable fashion, they need to either stop it, and take advice, or as a last resort be removed..of which is thoroughly an acceptable option given the circumstances. I have been a member of SPF since nie on its creation and I've never experienced anyone come in and act the way fiend does. That said, if he could act like a reasonable being then I'd have no problems.
BP
I haven't taken anything he said personally. In fact, I told Fiend that I have no problem with him, only his actions at times. Because I defended my choice to set a temporary ban (which is a job I was asked to do), you now claim that I personal issues with him and want to hurt him? How does forcing him to take a break from the chat hurt him?
sorry i deleted a few of my posts, my thoughts were a bit cluttered.
I wasn't referring to any bans you made in the past, more what you've said in the forum. and yes forcing someone to leave a channel can hurt them if they didn't want to leave, nothing confusing about that. I also see no reason why ignore is an unacceptable means of dealing with an annoyance on IRC if there are people who don't want him gone, again I'm not referring to past bans but the idea put forward to remove him long-term.
Anyways, I still believe what i said previously to be true, people just tend to hide the underlying reasons behind their actions.
No way Fiend could ever hurt my feelings. He can piss me off, but he does that to everyone. But that happens, I've pissed off quite a few myself over the years.
But if Fiend wants to be treated as an authority in his areas, he needs to espect the wisdom of the brethen as well. You say that Fiend is just pointing out where people are wrong, well he needs to be open for feedback himself. Hey, if Fiend layed back a bit he would be a great addition to our collective knowledge.
My problem is with him monoplizing the room, turning it into the all Fiend all the time channel. Hey we all got problems and opinions, but thats it, they are opinions. Sometimes prefaceing something with in my opinion makes a huge difference. And if he thinks enough of us to hang out with us, he should take notice when a bunch of people keep telling him the same thing. The dude has a lot of knowledle but we got worlds of experience in here to draw on, in my opinion to not avail yourself of a learning opportunity is a least as illogical as drinking alcohol or doing meth.
He needs to know this, one thing about me and my friends here, it's a big part of who we are. What it is is distrust of anyone with all the answers, we are antiauthoritarian to a fault. This place is a home for me, my time here is linited and precious. Cyber space is vast, naybe he just needs to have his own corner of it.
I agree with what JRL said!!!
Quoteagain I'm not referring to past bans but the idea put forward to remove him long-term.
Ok, now I know you aren't even reading this thread through. I have said over and over that I am
NOT arguing for a permanent ban. Please read my posts.
As far as the ignore function goes, the problem I have with it is 2 fold. The OPs can't really use it and still do their job. The few people I have seen use it only see part of the conversation... they eventually get confused because they see someone say something in response to the ignored person and it makes little sense without the whole picture. Then they end up asking why that person said that.... That's why ignore isn't used often. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying it can't be used.
I would have thought you'd understand this problem since you said you have run other IRC channels.
Quoteand yes forcing someone to leave a channel can hurt them if they didn't want to leave
Are you kidding me? So a "time out" is hurting someone? Well I can tell you don't have any kids...
Yes I am reading the thread, I am just not only replying to stuff you've said kemp but everyones posts. What I have learned from running channels is that bans are totally unnecessary. In almost every case(not all) the real reason is to get back at the person, people get their feelings hurt/pissed off(if you really want to differentiate the two JRL, I don't) and want them punished.
Yeah, I've lost members in my channels because I refused to ban someone who was pissing people off, because someone can't stand simply ignoring someone, they want them punished. Half the time they say the same stuff, it's for the sake of the channel, it's a totally unemotional decision, whatever. Personally I'd rather lose members who say stuff like, "it's them or me" How childish.
There is nothing wrong with an OP having people on ignore, what horrible thing is going to happen, you are going to miss them breaking the rules and not know to ban them? How tragic that would be. As far as the confusion caused by people being on ignore, it can be clarified with a few words, but really it's fairly obvious when theres an ignoree in a conversation.
I agree with your last post JRL, I'm not defending fiend nor saying he simply is pointing out where people are wrong. I'm just saying that removing him isn't necessary.
Yeah everything you said about fiend is correct, he doesn't respect other peoples knowledge and that hurts their ego's.
And kemp, when I was put on time-out as a kid, it definitely hurt my feelings. Punishments are suppose to hurt.
(Edit: Okay I've read through the thread a couple more times to try to understand your guy's views about it better. I get it, you want a chat room where everyone is friends and everyone is friendly. You'd rather remove someone than have to ignore them. If it's the decision of everyone in the channel to deal with people in that way than that's obviously how it should be dealt with. It's just not how I would deal with it, I don't get pissed off so easily and am willing to accept someones personality no matter what they do. I find huge faults in myself and every single person I have ever met and can sincerely say that fiends faults are no worse than anyone else's, just a bit more apparent.
Psychadelics often help people learn to see this and help people learn to not get pissed off by someone like fiend, but to accept how he is. You don't even need to put him on ignore, just learn to not be so affected by what he says. I think that ability will prove useful in many areas of life, I know it has helped me a lot. But again, it's your guy's community and you all seem to agree with one another so feel free to ban annoyances without further complaint from me.)
A time-out in my family is not a punishment and it's not meant to hurt. It is used simply to teach what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
I respect your view on this and I think to a certain point, that is exactly how we should approach issues such as this in chat. However, when things become very nasty/chaotic removing one misbehaving person temporarily is not going hurt anybody. I certainly don't do it often nor would I to get back at somebody (I don't have time for the games). Not doing something seems like the easy way out of a difficult situation.
Anyhow, as I said I respect your opinion and everyone else here. To be clear, I've removed the ban I set and I'll be taking a break of my own for a while now.
I haven't read Fiend's writings so I can't pass judgement on them. However, I do not agree with chadfive's opinion that people should be allowed to run wild and say anything they want. He also seems to imply that if people are offended then it's better they leave than the person who offended them. In some cases that may be true. A few do have overly sensitive feelings. I think it comes down to what is said.
IMO, personal attacks should not be allowed. If someone persists after being told about that, I see no problem with giving them a temp ban or "time out" if you prefer that term. Name calling is a type of personal attack as are other things that may use ordinary words. Let me give examples of my opinion on vigorous debate and unacceptable practices. The following may make people mad but are IMO acceptable:
"I disagree with your opinion because..."
"I think you are totally wrong and off base because you said..."
The following clearly cross the line:
"You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and should shut up and go away."
"You leave a foul stench behind you wherever you go."
Kemp has decided to let Fiend back in chat. Since he and Syd are the mods of this forum, we should respect their decision even if we disagree with it. But, JRL has said that if Fiend comes back he will leave. Maybe he will change his mind, maybe not. I for one would rather have JRL than someone who only posts in chat. JRL at least does support the forum with his posts.
If Fiend drives away 5 people will he finally be banned for good? Or if it's only 1 or 2, is that acceptable? I don't know the answer. I do think that some minimum standard of good manners can be enforced. Perhaps this broader subject should be discussed in another forum, perhaps the site forum, since it is of general interest to all?
I never said that I would leave the forums, you all can't get rid of me that easy.
Let me clarify my position. I really have nothing against Fiend. No matter what Chadfive thinks, there is now way Fiend can hurt me or hurt my ego. My family and my accomplishments in life are the ground I stand on and it is firm. So if Fiend shows up I am not stomping out of there. What I object to is the atmosphere that Fiend seems to delight in creating. Like I said, I got no time for that, I come for fellowship and intelligent conversation, things that are nearly immpossible when Fiend is on his high horse.
So yeah, this post isn't anything to do with the issue of fiend being banned anymore.
I just have to respond to a few things.
"A time-out in my family is not a punishment and it's not meant to hurt. It is used simply to teach what is acceptable behavior and what is not."
The reason a time-out teaches one what is acceptable behavior or not is because it's a punishment.
(edit: this made me curious so I did some googling of child time-out's. It almost always is referred to as a punishment. Sometimes just as disciplinary action. There are cases where a time-out can allow a child to calm down or something, but if you are using it to teach what is appropriate behavior, it only makes sense that it is viewed as a punishment to the child. They do something inappropriate, they get time-out. They don't want to do the inappropriate behavior agan because they don't want time-out again.)
As far as your ego's being hurt or not, our egos play a large role in our actions and how we view things(obviously), when a person like fiend ignores any input you have its going to hurt your ego, that's my opinion. (That of course is directed to people who fiend acctualy did this to)
chadfive, if it takes punishments to establish acceptable behavior, then that's what it takes. Or are you saying there should be no rules or guidelines.
"I never said that I would leave the forums, you all can't get rid of me that easy."
I think that is a mature attitude, JRL. However, you did say
"I for one don't have time for it, if he's back I'm gone."
We all have the right to change our minds and I'm glad you did. Why let one idiot run you off?
I was speaking of the chatroom, in the first case. Fiend has not graced the forums with his presence as far as I know.
Nah stonehenge, I'm not saying that. Although, I am not one who values rules or guidelines much, I was just arguing that time-outs are in fact punishments.
Is "Mok" in the forum any relation to fiend?
Quote from: "Stonehenge"Is "Mok" in the forum any relation to fiend?
no
Don't worry I ain't coming back, I didn't even do hardly anything. Everyone who has a problem with me either is being a pansy about arguements, taking insults that were meant trivially personally, cant stand critizism and/or finds me a threat to their ego.... even if thats 1/5th of the channel, thats still 80% of people who don't have a problem with me... and wtf kemp I am not 'claiming' to have autism I was diagnosed last year ffs what do you want my psych records??? I could easily scan in the letter I have confirming the diagnosis if you want to be shitty about it.
I cannot control half the shit you guys are complaining about and you didn't give me anywhere near enough of a chance to actually adjust my behavior before booting me - I haven't been able to get acid recently and thats the only thing that allows me to tolerate bullshit and change the way i communicate. I also didn't take enough meds for a few days cos I was trying to lower the dose and as a result I was particularly intolerant/aggressive, for those few days of excessive outbursts I appologise. Frankly intolerance of people not wanting to change for the better should be considered a good thing though. I have no problem with people who have flaws they cannot change, not like you guys who have a problem with me for flaws I cannot change atm despite my best efforts.
These aspects of ASD only serotonergic psychedelics have been effective for - believe me this shit bothers me more than it does any of you, I have a finite amount of financial resources and I cannot afford to pay for enough, not to mention the difficulty I have had finding LSD recently. Feel free to send me money or LSD, shrooms, peyote, 2c-b, etc and you will find my behavior more tolerable. :-p Getting 2c-b real soon at least. :-D
I am not an egomaniac neither I am just very talkative and I dont have much else to talk about other than my life. I really don't think all that much of myself I suck at everything but an extremely restrictive set of topics. I am disabled and shit at most everything. I suck. I cant even tidy up after myself. I am useless at most everything. Egomaniacs dont accept critizism, admit they have faults, let alone think that they suck. Maybe I am a maniac but that was kinda implicit with the name fiend.
I only ever bitched at people to stop drinking who have neurological conditions, I let it go otherwise... and yea 'alcohol is toxic and bad for you' its worse for you than all the illegal drugs including crack and heroin, crack and heroin don't make your brain shrink and facilitate brain washing. Its solvent abuse ffs, sorry for trying to get certain people who have vulnerable brains to not abuse them.
Whatever i'm sure all you people will be pleased I am NOT coming back. If I am not wanted in #spiritplants then whatever, its your loss people. I chat more than ANYONE and I don't bitch about my problems all that much. My conditions are a big part of my life and I talk about my them a lot seen as they bother me, they are constantly shoved in my face. I'm perfectly willing to chat about anything. I just tend to start talking about a finite number of subjects and nobody else fills in the space to try and start a conversation. The main reason ADD/amphetamine came up so much is because people kept arguing with me about it. It would hardly have come up at all if people hadn't. I just don't tolerate factually inaccurate statements, I have 0 tolerance for bullshit and I do tend to get aggressive and insulting when people refuse to accept fact and refute my authority on specific subjects that I know more than your adverage phd in the subject does on. JRL yes my information is accurate, if you want references send me the money to pay for the drugs it takes for me to do the referencing. I have been doing this shit for years, I have memorized an INSANE amount of information and I simply cannot remember references for it.
I will just talk to the friends I have from sp elsewhere, Syd has already come to my channel once. Cass will hopefully come visit us when she isnt such a busseh girleh :D. I considered khronus a friend before he turned on me like a rabbid dog for nothing. We were friends for years I thought, still hert about that dude. So what I maybe called you a retard or something god forbid.
Anyway whatever, if you guys cant appreciate the energy I have to bring then its your loss. So sorry for knowing my shit, not tolerating factually inaccurate statements and standing up for myself. People don't like having their beliefs questioned and their flaws pointed out, it is in my nature to do this. You people all want to think you are perfect and not work on yourselves. _I_ accept critizism fine so long as its accurate. I like being told what I am doing wrong and I do my best to change it. A lot of the behavior that was considered socially inappropriate was merely because you people who have a problem with me are so subject to your social conditioning re alcohol etc and don't use your head enough to realise such beliefs are inaccurate and inappropriate. Change is hard but it beats not trying. If people had simply accepted what I had to say rather than widely refuting it I would not have become aggressive/insulting. Frankly it may be a good thing you banned me because now I don't have to listen to certain people argue bullshit like ignorant dipshits and otherwise insult me by refuting my authority on shit I know better than most everyone.
I am done with spiritplants for good. Good day.
proof of concept, hm?
He does sound like an angry person for sure.
Sounds like the leader of a cult of personality to me.
A cult of one!
Yeah, Mok in forum = Mok in chat.