Spirit Plants - Discussion of sacred plants and other entheogens

I have found this to be disturbingly common, enough to make me rethink my involvement in the movement.

I am not sure what the roots of this are. I know Art Kleps got increasling offensive in his later years, but he seems to be a forgotten man.

So what's up with this??

I dont know much in regards to Art Kleps, I do see a connection between psychedelic community and various counter culture  'zionist' theories, not read enough on that to beable to illustrate.

Dug up a few links, i've not read the 2nd on yet and I could do with re-reading:

http://www.rense.com/general75/zagend.htm (http://www.rense.com/general75/zagend.htm)

http://www.rense.com/general75/p2.htm (http://www.rense.com/general75/p2.htm)


Theres loads more stuff there JRL, just goto rense.com and search about,

Boooshpig

Indeed, the racist behavior in chat tonight is not appreciated, the links above we in reponse b4 I had seen what was going on in chat properly.

Missed what happened in chat. Sorry it upset people. JRL, don't like some fuck-head keep you from being part of things. The psychedelic ideal has NOTHING to do with racism, gender bias, any kind of bigotry or prejudice. Wherever that exists, we need to oppose it unflinchingly.

If the chat is being invaded by racists, that cannot stand. I hope it doesn't.

Since I do not participate in chat, I have no pertinent comment concerning the goings on there..  That said, I find it really and truly saddening that here, in the ethno-community, we still are subjected to such utter bullshit....  Cen is on target JRL..  Though I can sympathize with your dismay, I gotta tell you that your place is definitely not  to turn away from idiocy....  The psychedelic community/movement is, in a way, just like any other....  Though one would hope our members are somewhat enlightened and encompassing, surely there will be the badly stinking, and rotten to the core apple in the barrel occasionally...  I say attack such retrograde behavior...  Shine the clear light of reason on such assinine modes of reasoning....  Sorry 'ya experienced this sort of crap "Mr. Bassman"         sal

Quote from: "JRL"I have found this to be disturbingly common, enough to make me rethink my involvement in the movement.

I am not sure what the roots of this are. I know Art Kleps got increasling offensive in his later years, but he seems to be a forgotten man.

So what's up with this??

Joe--What else have you experienced personally? I'd really like to know what to keep an eye out for. I've not seen this kind of behavior but I want to find out what's going on from you...

I appreciate the support guys.

Let me just say this: for me it is really not about Zionism or the jewish religon per se, and I really resent being taken to task for these things. Did I ever say I was a Zionist or a practitioner of the religon? But neither of those facts changes my heritage, which I do feel a part of.

I hope this matter can be clarified.

I'm just wondering what happened, Joe. I'd trust your account implicitly, but I don't know the details of what happened. Was it a chat regular or some new person making trouble? Also what else have you seen happening? I want to be aware of what crap you've been facing because I bet others are facing it too...

Sorry JRL, my links above were not trying to implicate you in such things at all, my reason was to try and offer some examples of counter culture theories involving anti-semitism and the jewish race, of which those links have nothing to do with the nonsesnse abuse you recieved the other day.

yeah, sal. well said. There's always someone to take the opportunity to express hatred and bias when there's a captive audience. That's my experience in other chatrooms when i used to have a little more time in my online quota.

inevitable. It's like a moth attracted to a flame - you can't stop physics.
Where there's love, there's hatred.
When i was younger,  i'd reason with the proponents of hate. Often those who questioned were interested in my responses.

Those who chose to hate and stick to it, were unreachable. And if i was astonished, angry or upset, i'd leave and ponder the phenomenon. Well, the phenomenon exists.

Anti-semitism exists. Anti-Israel exists and Anti-peace exists.
It's hard to be open-hearted with someone who hates what they think i represent.

And what does psychedelia have to do with it? Psychedelia is a key to opening minds, dissolving barriers and seeing the energetic forces as potential for huge change and evolution. (am i wrong?)

Those who enter a new room of potential and whittle it down to a corner of preconception, under lock and key, have done nothing but to continue old boundaries and seduce others to join them in their blind limitations.

and well, i don't do chat anymore. So sorry to hear that you, JRL, had to experience this kind of attack. Cen, i hear you in your support. And you, bushpig.

Whether it's against women, the rich, the poor, the smart, the Western, the Eastern, the dead or the unborn, prejudice is a strange little appendix to our human history and it seems to be attached for the long-haul.

Let's keep it clean and hope it doesn't burst.

love,
judih

Judih, I was hoping to hear from you. Lots of wisdom there. I guess it's hard because SPF has endured long by internet standards with  a high signal to noise ratio. It's been quite an oasis.

And folks, don't think it's because I don't have a sense of humor, I mean lots of funny stuff, playing to or against various stereotypes. Jokes are one thing, but if it ain't funny it's not joke.

Piggers, I was not saying that you were making that leap, sorry if it came off like that.

Thank you guys.

Gah that is totally infuriating!!! We're supposed to be a safe friendly community where we can share and learn from/with one another. Then assholes like that come and try to screw everything up! Really sorry you had to experience this bs! This kind of hateful behaviour will not be tolerated!!!

Peace
ObOdAoUr

Thank you all for the support.

"I will not go quietly..."

Quote from: "judih"Those who enter a new room of potential and whittle it down to a corner of preconception, under lock and key, have done nothing but to continue old boundaries and seduce others to join them in their blind limitations.



Whether it's against women, the rich, the poor, the smart, the Western, the Eastern, the dead or the unborn, prejudice is a strange little appendix to our human history and it seems to be attached for the long-haul.

Let's keep it clean and hope it doesn't burst.

love,
judih

---------------------------------------------------------------            My my sis:  That rapier sharp scapel you use to carve out such eloquent and incisive words is such a wonderous thing........  Beautifully presented rebuttal.  Thank you so much.    To JRL, yeah, I can relate...  {rage against that dying of the light, and most certainly, do not go quietly)...sal

Until as a species we learn to see everything and everyone else as being nothing more or less than who we really are, I suspect we'll never rise above the pattern of history our species has demonstrated. The fact of the matter is the  deep within our collective being, we loathe what we are and take it out by trying to find that which is different in others, when we are all really part of the same thing. How many millinea (sp?) have we been killing one another? How long have we been saying you're different from me? Its a shame, but the truth of the matter is far more disturbing than just isolated incidents that affect us as individuals, IMHO. :(

Sometimes its best to look inward than out.

JRL: Remember what you advised me to do awhile back concerning the bullshite spewed by others on line? Feh-get-about-it! Those folks cruise the net looking for people to mess with. They're anonymous idiots with a keyboard.

I'm with jiku on this one. That last line of his really hits home with me.

lw

I hear you guys, but sometimes a bit of righteous indignation is called for, IMO. And it really is not that I am taking this so personaly on an emotional level, but rather I wanna stand with the truth.

I have been very ambivalent about my heritage in the past, but in the past years I have embraced it, but on my own terms. Sometimes hate needs to be confronted I feel. I will fight to defend my home.

Yep JRL,  I can really grok that comment about ambivalence and yet having a yearning to display that righteous indignation when faced with idiocy...  My family never placed any particular emphasis on ancestory, though Pops did take a certain pride in the fact that there's a smidgeon of Native America amongst our clan....  The way I always looked at it, was like what with most immigrant European cutures that came to AmeriKKKa, and then adding on my own counter-cultural/hippy tendencies...  I always figured I'd find backlash, repression, and the like....  Add on decades of media insistence that liberalism is a mental disorder;  throw in years of Republican repression and economics, and damned if I am not sorta surprised that peeps of   'our ilk' aren't residing in some AmeriKKKan Gulag of an interrment camp :wink: -----------  sal

I think individuals and individual actions make up the collective, comprise and define it. Maybe I would modify the feh-get-about-it to pick your battles. Some are worth fighting, some aren't. It depends on what is being said or done to whom, and in what context, in my view.

Chat rooms are valid communities, and they can be destroyed by hate. The SPF chat has had its share of assholes over the years who come in, take over with their spew, and chase people away, while making others cringe to speak freely and comfortably.

The fact is, in my opinion, Joe should not feel his heritage, whatever it is, is something to be hidden or ashamed of. Nobody should. Someone spewing hate in a chat room against members of that chat is not supporting that community; usually such people are not there to do things like that. Usually they're bored, maybe angry at the world, who knows, but coming into a chat room which is part of a community devoted to tolerance is just not going to work.

To the larger point, to say humanity as a whole is self-loating is to generalize about a species of currently 5 billion in number and whatever amount have come and gone, and to assume that growth and change is not possible. I wonder about how we treat each other too. But when I see that black people in the US are not in chains, women have the right to vote, handicapped people have access to buildings, gays walk in my neighborhood holding hands, I think, OK, sometimes we do act on our better nature.

But to tie my two points together, I believe it was individual actions that led to those situations being true now. Enough people decided nobody should own another based on race, gender should not be a factor in who gets to vote, sexual orientation is a personal choice. Someone spoke out, then another, then another. That's how it works. So, Joe, speak out, let your truth, your love of SPF community and tolerance for others, shine. Then when you're out there in the world, don't worry so much. If you are a praying man at your temple, say one for the haters too.

I'd be a lot more concerned with racist actions in the real world. The net makes some folks feel like they have free reign to say what they will, from behind the safety of their keyboard while using a screen name. And nobody is going to change that. Maybe that's partly why I'm such a hermit.

lw

Btw, I'm not saying that on-line trash isn't worth the effort of a little education, but rather not worth the emotional drain on which they seem to thrive.

lw

And I agree. It really didn't cut that deep because it was so obviously stupid. I was more disgusted than anything. Like finding a possum in your house or something.

I found a very young three-legged possum near my front steps years ago...  Used to carry him around in a burlap sack.  One day, a guy approached me saying "whatcha got in that sack??  A pound of herb?"  I replied no, I have a three-legged possum named Tri-Power in there...  The dude tossed out a twenty and bet me I was bluffing.....  I poured 'ole Tri-power out on the picnic table and snatched the dudes twenty...  He looked at me and shook his head.  Told me I was one sick and evil SOB..  I asked him why he had to call me all that....  He replied....  " Man, it's just not right to tear off an animals leg just to win a few bets :lol:  :roll:  :P -----  A few weeks later, when the lil fella had gotten stronger, I took him to the woods and let him go..........  sal {possum supporter} :lol:

and that's a perfect example of racism. You admit you've got a slight difference (a 3-legged possum in this case), and the immediate response is that you're 'bad', 'evil', 'sick'.

Human beings are notorious for intense dislike of anything not part of the mediocre scope of daily behaviour.

Plays (The Enemy, Antigone) have been written about it. Novels have been written about it. The outcast is created, not born.

So, yeah, the hurt that a stupid comment can cause to me, depending on my state of vulnerability at that particular moment, has kept me away from net chats for a few years.

Somehow, for a long time, i was absolutely open on the net - my sixth sense filling in gaps and constantly being exercised. In such a psychically friendly state of net-being, a hateful comment or attack would often leave me with a roaring storm in my solar plexus.

Who needs it? There's enough hatred and attack in my daily life. Don't need a net fool who knows nothing yet speaks as if s/he has the truth on his tongue. (Actually, in fact it's always been 'he's' involved in trying to force me to confess my wrongdoings, my crimes, not 'she's')

So, not being one to search for fights, i tend to back away.

i like my stimulation nurturing and i tend to gravitate to my essential nutrients - humour, intelligence, poetry and sync.

That's why i'm a reader here and an occasional writer. i've been undernourished lately - expending more than i'm taking in.

and back to the topic - take it away.

how y'all doing?

Right on sistah j.

JRL: Re-reading your opening statement concerning what happened in chat and how it has soured your view of the psychedelic movement leads me to conclude that your anger, while valid may be misplaced. I fail to grasp the real connection between the on-line chat community and the consumption of sacraments. The chat community appears to be the problem here, not psychedelics. I've never understood why a person would put him/herself in that position with a group of anonomous strangers all wanting to talk/be heard at once. But that's just me.

You don't eat a good possum all at once!

But in regard to the subject at hand:
I've though it curious before to see what appear to be orthodox jews sitting quietly and praying at dead shows.  No one bothered them and in fact they seemed welcomed.

You hit the nail on the head there, tstt.

When I stop to think of it now, over the years I've seen quite a wide range of theological practices going down at dead shows. The first coming to mind was a group of SKINNY dudes dressed in white robes who were sitting/praying in a circle on the heli-pad behind the stage area during a Dead/Sanatna weekend at Angel's Camp in Calaveras County. To be honest, they looked like starving Afgani's to me, but the sacrament has a crazy way of making incredible the norm....

Another was the hairy urban wizzard who asked me to mind his magic wand one day in the City before a Jerry show. I was stuck holding that damn wand while the early effects of the sacrament came at me like a freight train.
     
lw

Well, it wasn't just the chat room, I guess my encounter with the possum just brought to the foreground something that had been bugging me for a long time.

Indeed mostly psychedelians are an accepting lot and I have heard of the orthodox dead heads. Judih might be right, ya got to pick the times to let the chakras opened, lest you get blind sided.

LW, did he ever come back for his wand?

how cool to be left holding a wand
would have liked to see a kirilian photo of that experience.

LOL Yeah, the guy came back for his wand. But it was an awfully strange block of time for me. A person shouldn't be saddled with that sort of loaded responsibility while coming on to the sacrament. Heck, what if I had snapped and went around turning all the heads into tales?

lw

now that's something from the book of laughing willow.

JRL - I wouldn't judge the community on one guy in the park.  Just like I wouldnt judge it by chat.  In large gatherings, I have really been amazed at the diversity of people getting along.  

LW - This girl I met at one of stork's shows (it always seems to happen just when you think you're safe!), had a young son (10 years old) that once showed me how to make a majik wand - it was very strange - but thats another story - she was more out there than all of us put together - a self-professed psychic and a known prostitute - and her poor kid - man was he picked on at school - he liked me though and he believed it was real - so what can I say?  Glad you didn't freak out.  I about did.  Cuzz as everyone knows - If I had my way, I'd tear this old build'in down!  It would only take one good push in the right direction, if you understand architecture.

I did it, I told the judge and backed it up in writing, so as there wouldn't be any misunderstandings - "For truly, your house is built upon a faulty foundation. The corner stone of your hall has not been squared, leveled nor laid plumb. As even a school boy knows, a house built upon a weak foundation will fall, no matter the craftsmanship used in the construction of its walls."

He was a bit shocked - I don't think he wasn't used to people speaking to him like this - or he wasn't used to people speaking in analogies even a 33rd degree mason could understand.  Anyway - they haven't sent the goon squad after me yet!  Stay tuned.  If I turn up missing, you know where to start looking PV, or inside the cornerstone (//http://www.geocities.com/lodge34/torrione_ldg.symbol.html) of the next great public building.

Anyway - I'd say next time it happens, don't worry about it.  Maybe a few heads need to be turned into tails.

------------------

For I was born free and have never sworn allegiance to any man - let alone "his worshipful master"      * I have no secrets *  My life is a book.

(//http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d199/TooStonedToType/rightangle.gif)
The great "secret" - really it is that simple.

We'll see you at Punta Negra, bro.

Viva la ciguena loca!

lw

I am opposed to racism of any stripe, bigotry and prejudice of any flavor. And while you all know from my more than annoying posts about politics, I am opposed to militaristic Zionism and the current government of Israel, nuff said.

But anti-semitism I am opposed to, fiercely. I know you for a mellow cat, but feel free to kick anti-semites in the nads, JRL.  :evil:

Viva el dendro! I been wondering about you, mon. Glad to see you come up to the surface .

lw

Hey Dendro! I too have recently been wondering about you. All good?

Hi LW, JRL, and well, everyone at spf! The site looks really good!

Well JRL, I can never say "all good", as I have been wrestling with some knotty and saddening domestic issues (43 year marriage is on life support  :oops: ). But change is good too, I keep telling myself!

But on the plus, I have been doing yoga sadhana, and soul awareness is expanding.  :)

"Up to the surface" yeah LW, here in Hawaii we have an ancient proverb: "The turtle always rises". The turtle is one of my totems, aumakua. So I'm still breathing, at least most of the time, at least I think so, sometimes I forget . :wink:

I was lurking yesterday, as I do occasionally, and maybe it was the new/old skin that triggered a state-dependent memory or sumpin, combined with TSTT's post on skateboarding, and I just felt like posting. I was a little unsure and insecure, didn't know if I would be welcome at all, but I figured I could always go under again, it's nice down there, "water flowing underground, same as it ever was".   8)

hey, there's a lot to be said for lurking. Lurking is just as active as posting, except it's less visible.

So sorry to hear about your relationship, Dendro. You have been an example of 'it can be done'. Well, change is good, and life moves on even if the books say we have to celebrate 60 year wedding anniversaries.

Hey, what can i say? My still live relationship never began in marriage so even if we make it to 60, it's not gonna count in the Hallmark book of anniversary counting. (oops)

So, here in Israel, yeah, we're still alive and kicking. We have to be a militaristic nation cause we're surrounded by people who'd rather see us non-existent. It's a problem for a pacifist.

My own kids (2 out of 4 who are age-eligible) aren't serving. It was through thoir own efforts that they got out of this mandatory civic duty (yeah!). But there's no doubt that Israel's existence depends on a tight military.

Maybe if we make it to 100 years old, we'll be able to look our neighbours in the eye and say: We're here. We exist. Let's live peacefully and get this show on the road.

Hey, i hope so.
But right now, it's not like that. It's a mess. It's hard and shameful that we're building walls to keep out our neighbours. May the day come where there's no need for protection from or separation from our neighbours.

May the day come where there are 2 states, each with autonomy and respect and viable inner makings to help citizens flourish.

That would be a great day.

But it's not easy to judge us if you're thinking from a Western mentality. There's an undercutting mentality that is impossible to understand unless you research this area and live amongst the people.

There's hope. There are a lot of people from both sides who are getting closer to recognizing that peace is the only way to survive. But that number needs to grow. Grass roots understanding needs to propagate before we'll see real acceptance.

and that's enough outa me right now.

hey dendro and all.
JRL - how's Passover goin?

Hi ya Dendro my friend.   I remember a post long ago in which you mentioned some nagging health issues.  I figured things had gotten worse for ya healthwise..  Great to find such is not the case....  Still surfin' I guess.....  Welcome back bro.....sal

My that day come soon, Judih. So much hate in the world.

Passover is good, mostly because Hope, Ari and Hodaya are here :)

cool! Best to the family!
hodaya! great name.

ah, grandkid. sounds so connected.

"But right now, it's not like that. It's a mess. It's hard and shameful that we're building walls to keep out our neighbours. May the day come where there's no need for protection from or separation from our neighbours.

May the day come where there are 2 states, each with autonomy and respect and viable inner makings to help citizens flourish. "

Hear Hear Judih!

Very well said!

Quote from: "dendro"I am opposed to racism of any stripe, bigotry and prejudice of any flavor. And while you all know from my more than annoying posts about politics, I am opposed to militaristic Zionism and the current government of Israel, nuff said.

But anti-semitism I am opposed to, fiercely. I know you for a mellow cat, but feel free to kick anti-semites in the nads, JRL.  :evil:

Thanks for your good wishes and words, judih, much appreciated. Ya it's sad, judih, but we're amicable, still a lot of love there. We're still a family, always will be. We're still in the same house, but may have to separate soon, if resources and health allow. Anything can heal of course, but in this case, time has revealed more of a gulf, not less. We've just grown apart. But we're not done, as you say, change is not the end, it's just...change. The change may be necessary to progress my sadhana, and complete my life's work. And since we don't wish to divorce, technically we may yet see a 60th! But there may not be a celebration...

"But it's not easy to judge us if you're thinking from a Western mentality. There's an undercutting mentality that is impossible to understand unless you research this area and live amongst the people. "

This is profound, and I completely agree. If I lived in Israel, I would likely be in a "tight jacket in a rubber room". Seriously, I doubt I could take it, I'm not that strong.

As you say, no one can know unless they live there, and I can't presume to judge the situation on the ground.

We are in the same boat together, in this modern warfare scenario. We all are stuck with extremists, in DC and Tel Aviv, and elsewhere too. And none of us "little folk" has that much power to stop the extremists. I too hope we can somehow extricate ourselves from this machine, and turn the course back toward peace.

I'm very proud of your kids, for taking a stand against the war machine, that is so great of them!   :D

I'm trying hard to encourage my sons to do the same, they are on board and will resist conscription to the end, thankfully. Unfortunately, my dear wife (whom I support!)  chose to raise them in a pseudo-Christian cult that supports Bush. The sons don't, but still, they donate to these crazies, and are raising their kids in it. I still hope they will wake up to the insanity and leave it behind. This is one of the big divides between us, as I refuse to allow my youngest son to be programmed into another cultbot (he doesn't want it either). And so I have become ---a problem.

I completely support the right of Israel to defend itself, and to keep a strong military. To me, as an idealist, it's more a question of balance. I can't help but admire the example of Switzerland, well-defended and somehow managing to stay neutral and avoid war for many hundreds of years, in spite of war all around them.

But I am an idealist, and I understand that the real world does not always spin the way we might wish. My idealism is somewhat simplistic, admittedly, borne of the Vietnam war era and psychedelia. And as a yogi, ahimsa, karuna, yamas and niyamas are core practices for me. But I also understand that, as Lord Krishna revealed in the Gita, on the cosmic level, all things are fine as they are, and duality is illusory. So my personality is simplistically anti-war, but my soul is ever blissful. And while I continue to be politically active to some degree, my real task and goal is to detach from duality, and to prepare my nervous system to manifest the pure soul which I feel deep inside.

As master of yog Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath has said, "Self peace for earth peace".

Hey senor estimado, thanks for the welcome, que paso, jefe? Yeah my health has taken some hits, after a long illness I finally blew out the gall bladder, lung collapsed with bacterial pneumonia after I burned it with a hit of salvia from a bat (dumb, I know! :oops: ). Like everyone in this mortal parade, the aging thing has taken my strength, encouraging me to shift focus to inner workings. But yeah I keep working out, and still get in the water for some waves, and looking forward to the summer swells coming soon, alright!

Hi Stoney, thanks for the kind words!  8)

It's not easy walking the transition line.
It's all illusion / The illusion is compelling

There's much i want to accomplish
does it matter what i do, or is it enough that i do whatever i do with a full heart and loving intentions?

Is it ego that keeps me going?
or non-ego?

Does it matter?
ah, dilemnas.

Happily, life.

May our lives grow in mutual understanding. Our self-peace reaches out to our mate's peace and then family and then societal.

it begins with me, and if i'm lucky those around me help me attain a more balanced route.

dendro, you are inspiring.
hope the son who's able to break with the cult-thought does so with a firm resolution.

Isn't that what we, as parents, hope for? strength to stand up and go against the machine.

Feed em ginseng when they're young and lots of love.

Make em listen to music, preferably jazz.

And let em find out about the world without the advertising world implanting views.

racism is just one more form of propaganda, fed through an IV tube, and removable if noticed.

judih says:

"It's not easy walking the transition line.
It's all illusion / The illusion is compelling"

It's compelling, but I take comfort in the fact that attachment is voluntary.

"does it matter what i do, or is it enough that i do whatever i do with a full heart and loving intentions?"

IMO, it is enough. Bhakti is necessary in any case, and a complete path in itself.

"Is it ego that keeps me going?
or non-ego?"

Doesn't matter, no, but I think it is non-ego that keeps all going.

"May our lives grow in mutual understanding. Our self-peace reaches out to our mate's peace and then family and then societal.

it begins with me, and if i'm lucky those around me help me attain a more balanced route."

good insight here, thanks...

"hope the son who's able to break with the cult-thought does so with a firm resolution."

Ya we've had some fun exploring things together-logical fallacies, history of scripture and world religions, qualities of cults, earth sciences and evolution, political science and history, propaganda, etc. I'm proud of him, at just 14 he is a very loving and gentle soul, but he wants to find his own truth, which I applaud. It won't be easy for him, as he loves his family, his Ma, and brothers and sisters very much, and they will try to entice him back into the cult. I have made an effort to stay here mostly for his sake. If he had not come along at such a late stage of the marriage, I would have been gone long ago. If and when I leave, he will have to have a steady resolve to resist the cult pressures.

At this stage, his prime interest is "world of warcraft" heh...

Semite (//http://www.bartleby.com/65/se/Semite.html)
This anti-Semitism nonsense (//http://www.unknownnews.org/060922fd.html#916PeterS)
Anti-Semite? Moi? (//http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/anti-semite-moi/)
TWISTED DEFINITIONS OF “ANTI-SEMITISM” (//http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/jewishheaddepartofantisemitsm.html)
You Might Be An Anti-Semite If... (//http://www.crescentandcross.com/index.php?page=articles&subpage1=you_might_be)
WRH and Anti-Semitism (//http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/antisemitism.html)
The Israel lobby debate (//http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html)
The History of Zionism & Judaism (//http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/history.cfm)
WHY IS WORLD JEWRY OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE (//http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html)
In Their Own Words (//http://www.crescentandcross.com/index.php?page=articles&subpage1=their_own_words)



Ignore the Thought Police.
Read the evidence. Judge for yourself.

Spark this thread is not about the "global jewish orginization", zionism, Israel, or even the jewish religon. I thought that was fairly clear.

It's about ethnicity and hatred.

Quote from: "JRL"Spark this thread is not about the "global jewish orginization", zionism, Israel, or even the jewish religon. I thought that was fairly clear.

It's about ethnicity and hatred.

no, it's about "anti-semitism".. and the root cause of most of today's anti-semitism is zionism...

The root cause of most discrimination is stupidity, or more kindly, ignorance.

lw

I disagree,Spark. Anti semitism goes way deeper than zionism. And anger at zionism is arguable, but hatred and ignorance is not.

But let me reitirate: I do not consider myself a zionist, though I have a stake in Israel, seeing my family resides there. Neither do I consider myself a practitioner of the jewish religon. But I will identify myself as a jew till my dying breath.

Spark, I would look at your statement again. Does it mean all jews should be hated because of Zionists?? That is definitly a way it can be interpered.

Anti semitism existed long before there were the issues we are dealing with today.

After traveling a lot of the world and being around the net for so long, I will have to agree with LW.

Most all of this is caused by ignorance and stupidity. Religion, politics and racism kill more relationships and start more wars that kill more people than I tend to want to think about.


-pkeffect

man, any time any 'ism or 'ist comes up, I get jumpy. Isms and Ists imply that human beings are distinct from one another on some definable level. So you have your zionists, your white supremicists, your feminists, etc. etc. Some open preach hatred of a defined "other"--such as those who hate blacks, or those who hate Asians, Africans, latinos, Islamicists, Christianists, etc. Others preach for their own "kind"'s superiority, such as Hitler's Aryan super-race. We're better than them, we're better than all, kill them, kill them all.

Any of this ever contribute to make the world a better place for all? How did lynching blacks in the American South improve life for others there? Didn't, there, or anywhere else. The genocide in Darfur, the horrors in Iraq, is anyone getting happy putting a bullet in the head of another, taking his land, raping his women, selling his children, annihilating his language and his history?

What does it add up to? Poor is poor, hungry is hungry, in any language, under any skin color, no matter the god prayed to for help. A crying child, an old person in dying lonely despair, a sick woman without medicine. No year, no land need be named. Pain is pain, cruelty is cruelty. Hope is hope. All the rationalizing BULLSHIT mouths or raised fists put forward can't deny or disprove any of this.

divisiveness will be our downfall. Can't see the real if we're busy with bruised ego and personal vengeance.

The best revenge is to live. The best comeback is to live fully.

and it's hard to get mad at ignorance. (i mean it's easy, but it's not going to get me anywhere).

The best peacemaker is education and understanding. If an adult is soured and closed-minded - let's hope that the next generation can be made to talk to neighbours, share daily life, see that our similarities far outweigh our differences. Let the next generation see some examples of people doing that very thing. Let's be the future. Enough with the blinders, already.

Didn't Martin Luther King teach us anything?
We're all the same and we're all in this together.

Quote from: "spark"

Quote from: "JRL"I disagree,Spark. Anti semitism goes way deeper than zionism.
yeah, but in this present time, who knows more about anti-semitism than the zionists do?

And anger at zionism is arguable, but hatred and ignorance is not.
well, if zionism isn't hateful and ignorant, then i don't know what is...

But let me reitirate: I do not consider myself a zionist, though I have a stake in Israel, seeing my family resides there. Neither do I consider myself a practitioner of the jewish religon. But I will identify myself as a jew till my dying breath.
how does that work? i mean, hasn't anybody ever told you that jews aren't a race?
:oops:

"jews are not a race" (//http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jews+are+not+a+race&btnG=Search&meta=)

Spark, I would look at your statement again. Does it mean all jews should be hated because of Zionists?? That is definitly a way it can be interpered.
NO.. if you looked through all of the links, you would have read that a jew and a zionist are two very different things...

Anti semitism existed long before there were the issues we are dealing with today.
so did zionism. :P but yes, anti-semitism (as well as racism in general)  has been with us for an extremely long time..as long as we've had history in fact!

I can understand being disgusted with the isreali gubmit's policies, but the blanket claim of a "zionistic" plot to control the world is just as ignert as the isreali gubmit screaming "anti-semetism" every time someone tries to hold their bad actions up to the light for scrutiny, imo.

lw

This is becoming tiresome. Thank you Spark, for illustrating my whole point in starting this thread.

My friend, I am a jew. Take one look at my curley hair, big nose, ect.
A race, I don't know, An ethnicity? Most definitly. My cultural background? Absolutely. There are many jews that are not religous nor zionist, believe it or not, even in Israel.

I am also an American, does that make me responsible for the actions of the current regime?

I have a young friend that was being harrased everyday at high school by a jew hater, so finally he snapped and cracked the dudes head open with his skateboard. He knew he was wrong, but a man can take only so much.

You don't have to preach to me about the evils of Zionism, I have been to Israel and seen the oppression of the Palestinians. The whole thing is really tough for me, not a day goes by that I don't worry about my children and grandchild over there. Or think about the bombing narrowly averted n the grocery store my daughter shops in everyday.

I believe there is only one race of humans with many ethnic variations that developed in part due to the relative isolation our ancestors experienced up until just recently.

Taking anonymous pot shots at individuals on the net due to ethnicity or the actions of others of the same ethnicity is immature and cowardly, imo.

lw

Quote from: "laughingwillow"I can understand being disgusted with the isreali gubmit's policies, but the blanket claim of a "zionistic" plot to control the world is just as ignert as the isreali gubmit screaming "anti-semetism" every time someone tries to hold their bad actions up to the light for scrutiny, imo.

lw

I think the problem we have is separating Israel and it's policies from judaism itself. I disagree with many things the country of Israel has done and is doing but I have nothing against jews or their religion any more than I have anything against islam or any other group or religion.

How do we separate Israel from Judaism? Are they one and the same or are they different? I think they are different but I may be wrong.

Israel is a country. Israel the country was formally born in 1948. We'll be 59 this year. That's all. Since getting this sand dune filled with the occasional swamp and lots of mosquito laden disease beds, things have moved rather quickly.
Israel is not joking. Israel means to be a home for Jews. The Holocaust was no joke. Being slaughtered made an impression on those Jews who survived WWII.

This factor is a major player in why Israel now is so insistent on keeping a strong central goal of survival.

It's not easy to read this when a person doesn't live here. It's almost impossible for a Westerner to grasp this vital energetic ohm.

At the same time, Jews are devoted to the idea of humanity. It's appalling that we fall into the role of oppressor when we've just escaped from being so utterly victimized. Yet, our government has put us in that position.

Gov't is not religion, is not Judaism, is nothing but government.

America is not her government.

America is not her war policies.

And JRL's comment that Spark is dramatically missing the point of this entire thread is right on. JRL would like to live a life without hearing hatred thrown on another group of human beings.
Who is Spark to claim to have the inside track on an entire issue that he or she has only read about.

Walking in the other person's shoes would do a lot for mutual understanding.

If every government official were to walk in the shoes of those affected by policy, things might rapidly change to a more humane stance on every issue that arises.

But government is notorious for being interested in self-survival.
And that's the sad nature of politics. The humane, wise seers do not run for office. They're busy doing things to heal the rifts created by misunderstanding.

Many people around here work daily to bring Palestinians and Israelis together - starting with education, teachers and students.

This kind of thing is not in general broadcast to people like Spark. Excuse me, Spark, for pinpointing you but you might actually listen if I call your name.

You call mine. You decide who I am, what zionism is, what is right. Perhaps you might be open to listening. Just as you would have me listen.

good morning, all. this is a five thirty a.m. post. No glasses and i do need glasses these days to see clearly, so excuse missing words, letters, thoughts.

Just know that for every link on the Internet, there are 12 more that say the opposite. The age of over information is upon us. If we could get simple again, we might be able to hear one another.

judih

QuoteAt the same time, Jews are devoted to the idea of humanity. It's appalling that we fall into the role of oppressor when we've just escaped from being so utterly victimized. Yet, our government has put us in that position.

Gov't is not religion, is not Judaism, is nothing but government.

America is not her government.

America is not her war policies.

Good points, judih. I think some people use the actions of Isreal as an excuse to attack people for their ethnicity or religion. I think we are all in agreement that this is wrong. At the same time it's possible to criticize a government and it's actions without at the same time criticizing everyone in the country or their religion. I don't like it when someone blasts me personally for being an imperialist based on what Bush and company are doing. I'm against that myself.

thanks, stonehenge, for listening and making that point. No one has the right to tell anyone else to 'shut up'/'stop talking'. Yet, it would be nice if talk were based on true individual thought, rather than spewed diatribe.

Till a person lives a thing, it's not really hers or his.
i remember myself telling people how things truly are when i was in my early 20's. How did i know? i mean, truly, i knew a lot, because i'd suffered a lot and had scraped away a lot of garbage i'd been fed. But still, who was i to preach to someone who had their own experiences and had drawn their own conclusions about survival and compassion?

i can criticize, but often i find i am criticizing what i most detest about myself. i see the world as only my experience allows me.

and that is an ever-changing lens.

For me, this thread is a prime example of the "information age/net world/instant access/electronic community, as we find it today...  People from so many differing backgrounds, faiths,political and social agendas"...As this thread has run its course, I find myself fascinated by the differing viewpoints presented, but even more;  I find myself uplifed for the most part!!!   Of all diverse positions  I must say,  I'm glad to be a part of a community such as this, that shows a basic trend for inclusion and acceptance....  A willingness of its participants to "go the extra mile "in an attempt to understand and accomodate the views"    Once again, when all is said and done,  SP Refuge looks purdy shiney eh????--sal

http://www.talmudunmasked.com/ (http://www.talmudunmasked.com/)
http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/ (http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/)
http://www.nkusa.org/ (http://www.nkusa.org/)
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/ (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/)
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/ (http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/)
http://zionismexplained.org/ (http://zionismexplained.org/)
http://www.ziopedia.org/ (http://www.ziopedia.org/)
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/ (http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/)
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

Peace out.

In case anyone here didn't take the time to read any of the links provided above, I found this one interesting........

Israel versus Judaism

This website was created to expose the violence and oppression perpetrated by the Zionists and their State of "Israel" against the Jewish people who remain true to the Almighty, Judaism and the Torah.

Judaism does not condone violence. Judaism demands that Jews be good citizens of the countries in which they reside and that they live peacefully with respect for and subservience to the ruling powers.

Judaism teaches us, that the right for the Jewish people to have self rule in the Holy Land is not unconditional. Since the destruction of our Holy Temple over two thousand years ago, the Jewish people have been exiled from this land by Divine decree. The Talmud tells us that G-d obligated us not to rebel against the ruling bodies, and not to take the land of Israel by force (see Babylonian Talmud tractate Kesubos 111A).

The aggression that Zionism presents in taking the land from the indigenous Palestinian people is the first flag that exposes this movement for what it is -- a real deviation from Judaism. Judaism forbids us from taking the land away from those who currently have jurisdiction over it. That such things should be done not only in opposition to Judaism, but in the name of the very Judaism it defies is simply large-scale fraud. Zionism, once exposed, proves to be the greatest enemy, the worst nightmare, to the Jewish religion and it's practitioners, that exists to date. Zionism, strikes out regularly at Jews who remain true to Torah and its precepts. There are many Jews who protest against the very existence of the State of Israel, and who are quite vocal, albeit peaceful, about their opposition. Whenever Zionist policies or activities run counter to the Torah stance, Torah-true Jews come forward to unmask the imposter. Unfortunately, they have many opportunities to voice their stand, because few countries in the world tramples on the religious rights of its inhabitants as regularly as does the State of Israel. Witness, the routine autopsies which are done against the stated, tearful wishes of the family. Witness, the ancient, sacred burial grounds ripped open with abandon for the construction of yet another mall, with bare bones, hundreds of years old treated to the absolute desecration of careless disposal, and the list goes on and on... Protesters suffer terribly at the hands of the Zionists, who try to quash all opposition and deal with their peaceful detractors in the most brutal fashion. This fact, too, is yet another proof that this movement cannot speak for Judaism -- because Judaism opposes aggression and would never sanction the bloodshed of brothers who seek only to remain true to the Torah.

This is, unfortunately, a little-known fact - that Zionism is constantly criticized by the fervently Orthodox Jews - critics whose opposition is not predicated on the political correctness of our point in time, and that these detractors do so under pain of physical torture. The secular establishment, which by and large celebrates Zionism as a replacement for Judaism, a transformation that does not mandate any religious observance per se, hogs the traditional media venues and will not be party to letting the voice of the observant Jew, be known. The worldwide Jewish Federations, Jewish Agency and similar organizations claim to speak for all Jews but actually represent only the views of a misguided segment of the Jewish people. "Israel" today is equated with "Jew" - but what a travesty! The Israeli government is quite happy to have gotten away with this fraud, and certainly won't allow news of any cracks in the mask to be recognized. The average reader today will not see this in the press, because the powers to be, don't want you to know this.

But as the pictures and articles on this site demonstrate, opposition to Zionism from within Judaism is not a fringe movement but rather, an intrinsic characteristic and a mainstay of Judaism itself. This opposition has continually suffersd bloodshed and tremendous tragedy. Jews who are loyal to the Torah find it imperative to have the following points on the record:

Zionism is not Judaism.
The founding principles of Zionism run counter to Judaism.
The State of "Israel" dose not represent the Jewish people.
Aggressive acts committed in the name of Zionism are crimes and not religious imperatives.
Zionists have no right to commit violent acts towards anyone ââ,¬â€œ neither Palestinian nor Jew

Obviously the writing of a black hat ultra orthodox person, actually a religous zionist.

See the ultra orthodox feel that a secular Israel is wrong, and in time god will give them dominion over Israel, at least as I understand it.

QuoteThat's all. Since getting this sand dune filled with the occasional swamp and lots of mosquito laden disease beds, things have moved rather quickly.

Denial is not a River

the sand dune and swamp you talk about has a name
it is called Palestine
and it was already long inhabited by people called Palestinians

here ill pull up a picture so you can see their faces, traditional dress and their humanity
(//http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Peasant_Family_of_Ramallah_1900-1910.jpg/788px-Peasant_Family_of_Ramallah_1900-1910.jpg)

I know your sickness. My country had it until recently
its the sickness of believing in the notion of Terra nullius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#West_Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#West_Bank)
Until Israel deals with that then its just feeding the hate that grows against it

Im definitely anti-Israeli. Obvious reasons
Im anti-Jewish too - all religions are wrong whether they be the outdated windows 98 of judaism, the stagnat xp of christianity or the dysfunctional Vista of Islam.  Youre all just plain wrong.

but anti-semite. no
Youre all just people, like me, till you choose a political position

I want to know how exactly anti-semitism is defined.
Usually its defined as a sort of racism, as if all Jewish people share the same genetics. Thats bull. A previous poster mentioned curly hair and large nose as typifiing jewish people. No that typifies middle eastern people. There are people who identify themselves as jewish that are clearly from a british heritage, a russian heritage, and african heritage. To base it on genetics is silly. And anti-semitism justified by race is rightly horrid.

But if instead you define Anti-semitism as being against the jewish religion than I'll be the first to say i'm an anti-semite in that i'm againt jewish religion in the same way i'm against christian and muslim religion. Its a rediculous fairy tale. And quite frankly, any religion that makes convenants with god by removing earthly pleasures through cutting genitals is quite abhorrent.

If its based on the state of Isreal, then again that makes a lot of us anti-semites. I don't know how anyone can overlook the fact that the Palestinian people were displaced. They were displaced to make room for a state that is basically a military base for U.S. interests. Its supported by the U.S. only because there is a sizable Jewish lobby in the U.S. from the mass immigration after WWII. So if thinking that Israel shouldn't exist makes you an anti-semite then again I'm anti-semitic.

So define anti-semitism because from my experience it isn't as clear cut as pure racism.

and just to note..I don't know what was said in the chat. If racial slurs were used then of course it was disgusting.


Benevolence out.

I appreciate you finding an image to enhance your post, but you seem to be anti-israel and pro-palestine. Interesting that you have decided to throw your support behind one side and not another.

I'd just like to point out that there is such a thing as the State of Israel, in spite of what you'd prefer to think.
//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

The Palestinians were offered a 2-state compromise by the U.N. back at that time and they refused it.

You refer to a 'sickness'. Are you American? Are you referring to the slow annihilation of the First Nations? Or are you speaking of Afghanistan or Viet Nam? I don't know what you're talking about, specifically.
Israel has no choice, here. We're not bored or attempting to conquer distant oil fields. We want to make sure our kindergartens aren't bombed. We prefer to wake up to sparrows rather than booms.

It's easy to preach names and abstract philosophies when it's not you who's being targeted.
Do you live in the area?

Do you feel that you're helping pave the way to peace by denying the fact that there is a country called Israel? I just don't get your point.

And please, don't bring in opinions of those who live in the West Bank. They will be leaving there, no matter what they themselves believe.

Well put, Judih

There are two sides to this, and every story/war/conflict. Claiming that one side is solely responsible for the problems in the world, and specifically in the middle east, is like saying there is only night, no day or only up and no down. It doesn't make sense and only highlights your ignorance.

Ignorance, case and point (From the other thread) =

QuoteSo I say
Go Hamas
Fire those rockets
You've earned the right
If youre gonna go down, go down with a fight

Until both sides decide to lay down arms and stop fighting over land, of which none of us own, the fighting/dying will continue.

.... and here lies the crux of the problem, imo.

An equitable solution might not be possible until both sides manage to view the issue from the prospective of their neighbor. However, the ability to see both or multiple sides of an issue doesn't seem to be a dominant trait of the current human condition. (At least not in our neck of the woods.) Instead, we tend to choose sides and attempt to diminish or dismiss the validity of the other perspective in question.  (Sports and politics come to mind here.)

Empathy on some levels, imo, might be a recessive human trait; something that needs to be developed.

Entheogens have the ability to lead us to empathy, imo. One step in the process is accomplished when the initiate manages to attain multiple perspectives of a single object at the same time. Another facet of this training is to force the initiate to to see him/herself through the perspective of others in the immediate group. However, not many people really enjoy the last exercise mentioned as it tends to uncover details of our personalities we'd rather gloss over or ignore all together.

And as long as I'm on this little rant........

I read an earlier post or maybe a post in another thread recently that condemned all major religions as being bad. But I don't see the bible nor torah nor koran as being evil. Rather, I'm amazed at the beautifully spiritual subtext that remains in the bible, even after centuries of biased translations.

People are both problem as well as potential solution, imo. But first we must realize on a deep but accessible level that all cats are gray.

lw