For all those out there that practice or have questions about martial arts, here is a begining thread:)
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I 'll start with an extract from a little book i am reading. A highly recommended book, short, crisp and to the point.
The book is "Inner Voyage of a Stranger". Pathways to a New Perception. 2002.
Written by Kenjiro Yoshigasaki, a Master in ki-aikido, direct line from the creator of aikido Morihei Ueshiba.
Publication: Werner Kristkeitz Verlag.
Part 3 : Perception
"Most people use two words to describe the inside of the body. Thought and feeling. This actually means words and non-words. Thoughts are words in our body, which may be pronounced or written, and feeling is something that is not a word but is recognisable and could eventually be expressed using words. Psychology has given the public the idea that by expressing your feelings you can maintain good psychological health. If you are interested in helping others, that idea may be a suitable one. On the other hand, you will be dependant on other people’s help by expressing your feelings to others.
However, if you are interested in living your own life, it is better not to express your feelings.
You must get back to the basic understanding that when body perception is expressed in words, it is called a feeling. By expressing it, you actually distort it because you associate it with some memory.
That is why the concept of feeling is useful to understand and eventually to help others but it is useless and harmful if applied to yourself. Furthermore, when you percieve inside your body, you will find it to be very rich like music or painting. It is much richer than feelings, which are only words. At the same time it is true that most people do not understand the richness of music or painting and just stick to words about them. You must learn to listen to your body just like listening to music or looking at art without interpreting with words."
If you'd like to have this homemade Samadhi image in full, click //http://manue23.blogs.psychologies.com/photos/uncategorized/empty_mind_2.jpg
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More from "Inner Voyage of a Stranger" de Kenjiro Yoshigasaki.
Part 5 : Reality
4 : what is respect.
"Many people confuse admiration with respect….
Respect means to observe yourself when you have contact with someone or something. First you will notice that you are hypocritical or prejudiced. You will also notice that it is impossible to understand others. There is always something that you do not understand. As a result your attitude changes. This is respect.
For exemple, you see a flower. If you think it is a flower, you have no respect for it. If you obeserve yourself, you will see your thoughts have no value and you will start to see the flower more attentively. You will also discover many things that you do not understand. Then respect for the flower is born."
Many of the Chinese martial arts have an extensive herbalism component. Traditionally, plants have been used by martial arts practitioners for healing injuries, tonifying different systems, or correcting imbalances. In my limited experience, I'm not aware of them being used to explore altered states of consciousness. This seems odd, now that I think about it, because altered states of consciousness *are* explored by other means such as meditation.
i have to say that i dont know enough about traditional chinese medecine. it is something i would like to learn more of; but if not everyone in that community used herbs for other things than healing, i am sure a part of the martial arts community uses herbs for shamanistic rituals.
but maybe i am confusing things, and i am more thinking of tibetain shamanisme, which of course has had a great influence on any martial arts, since they are very bouddhiste inspired.
about tibetan herbs, which have been very interesting to western scholars, check out this video page:
//http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=popefucker%2Btibet
there is an interesting one on tibetan medecine.
i HIGHLY recommend the one on Book of the Dead of the Tibetains; part 2. It is with Leonard Cohen voice and an amazing trip through the bardos, north india, and also comes with some very intense graphics.
(check out popefucker's collection of videos, one of the most impressing and esoteric that i have found on the net so far)
(//http://www.kheper.net/topics/bardo/wheel.jpg)
also, i finally finished the book "Inner Voyage of a Stranger". Pathways to a New Perception. 2002.
Written by Kenjiro Yoshigasaki, a Master in ki-aikido, direct line from the creator of aikido Morihei Ueshiba, and teacher of the aikido teacher we have here.
Publication: Werner Kristkeitz Verlag.
It is a wonderful little book. extremely sharp and very concise. A first glance, it can appear as very simple truth yet, it is actually very deep truth which take a few life times at least to master. Kenjiro writes with a typically japanese clearness of mind, and leaves us with a true desire to sit down and work on ourselves, on a daily basis.
Truly inspiring, it is recommended to any students of the mind, and of application of martial arts philosophy in every day life.
As an hommage to him, and as a meditation, and also because the book is not put online yet (or else i have not found it), i have been copying and sharing a few passages.
here is the one for today:
Part 5 : Reality
9 : What is freedom ?
"People often think that freedom is to do what one wants without being controlled or influenced by others. This concept is wrong because it means that freedom does not exist. Anyone can see the fact that it is mpossible to do what one wants to do all the time. If everyone tries to do what he or she wants, they end up killing each other. True freedom is being free from one’s own thoughts, feelings, and desires. This is possible and if everyone is free, the world will be paradise.
The way to freedom starts by not influencing your feelings through words. First you must learn how to perceive inside your body without words. That means you must get rid of the notion of feeling because feeling is verbal expression of body perception. As long as you think in terms of feelings, you use words and words influence your body. You must also get rid of positive and negative words."
Quote from: "Danzick"Many of the Chinese martial arts have an extensive herbalism component. Traditionally, plants have been used by martial arts practitioners for healing injuries, tonifying different systems, or correcting imbalances. In my limited experience, I'm not aware of them being used to explore altered states of consciousness. This seems odd, now that I think about it, because altered states of consciousness *are* explored by other means such as meditation.
I've heard it suggested the Vikings used fly-argaric mushrooms to induce their "beserk rage". But otherwise not much on martial artist using plant induced altered states. I've heard of martial artist attempting to enter altered states of conciousness, ki, "the zone" etc., though meditation, repetative exercises, physical pain, and stuff like that, but not spiritplants. I would suggest that most psychedelic states induced by plants are not suited for developing combat skills.
Toostoned wrote:
"I would suggest that most psychedelic states induced by plants are not suited for developing combat skills."
i'd have to disagree with this, as did the aikido teacher when we asked him (he's an older hippie, whos been there, done that ect).
Combat besides being a physical activity is also a psychological one. psychedelics if and when being used for that purpose can help to understand ones own's psychology better, which also means the other's psychology. therefore, if used for such a purpose, psychedelics could be very helpfull for combat skills.
but of course no magic pill would ever replace hard and long years of daily training;)
===================================
For today, here is a bit of the story of the Blue Eyed Barbarian, the son of a Indian King, who chose monkhood over governing a state.
If any of you amateurs of such litérature find technical mistakes in the writing, please, do help making it clearer and accurate by sharing your views and knowledge:)
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Travelling across mountains, through winds and skies, he came from India to China to share a sutra which was until then unknown by the then established buddhists schools, Bodhidharma belongs to the Buddhist legend. Some writings give him up to 150 years, and even see him walking around India’s counry side after his death, a shoe in his hand.
For 7 years he sat in front of a wall, in a cave, practicing the wall meditation, that is sitting in zazen with no words or no outside contacts. On the 7th year, he fell alseep, and angry at himself he pulled out his eyelid and threw it on the floor, creating the tea leaf to keep monks awake.
The 28th patriarch of buddhism, a direct line from the Buddha himself, the 1st Zen/Chan patriarch, a form of Mahayana buddhism, some call him the fundator of Kun Fu, the martial art practiced in Shaolin temples.
Here is a fine exemple of buddhist humor, in the legendary meeting between Bodhidharma and the ruler of the time, Emperor Wu, an emperor who happened to be a devoted buddhist of the Liang Dynasty (around 520 on the gregorian calendar).
The emperor asks Bodhidharma:
"What is the highest meaning of noble truth?"
"There is no noble truth." answers Bodhidharma.
The emperor then asked Bodhidharma:
"How much karmic merit have I earned by ordaining Buddhist monks, building monasteries, having sutras copied, and commissioning Buddha images?"
"None."
The emperor out of patience with the Blue Eyed Barbarian then asked Bodhidharma:
"Who is standing before me?"
"I don't know."
Links:
Bodhidharma in wiki:
//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma
Painting by Qiao Seng:
//http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/zen_buddhism_paintings_sale_give_away.cfm?startrow=6&status=
Article in french:
//http://manue23.blogs.psychologies.com/aventures_psychedeliques/2007/01/le_barbare_aux_.html
Fuzz Wrote:
Combat besides being a physical activity is also a psychological one. psychedelics if and when being used for that purpose can help to understand ones own's psychology better, which also means the other's psychology. therefore, if used for such a purpose, psychedelics could be very helpfull for combat skills.
but of course no magic pill would ever replace hard and long years of daily training;)
Good points fuzz. Beyond that, the internal martial arts work with energy flow in the body, body awareness, perceptual skills and many other things not directly related to combat. These are areas that select use of spirit plants as tools might be useful. I very much agree with Toostoned that for direct combat training, spirit plants probably would not be very useful and probably detrimental. Somehow I don't think strike drills while pharmacologically enhanced is a good idea.
Fuzz,
No disrespect intented, but I've been doing martial arts for a long time, and one thing I have found, is we are all just way to full of self-importance and self-righteousness. :lol: We learn a little something suddenly we are preaching... :roll:
That said...
I think I would concur with TSTT, but I have to ask: Have you ever really practiced while in a psychedelic state? (I don't mean kata, or meditation, I mean sparring) I find it dubious at best, and irresponsible at worst to even think of it. And yeah, I have been there and yeah, I have done that. There is a huge difference between what you said about using psychedelics to acheive and understanding one's own or an other's psychology and acutally working on your skills while under the influence. You are confusing the two I think.
And please, your grasp of Zen is disturbing at best. Buddhist HUMOR? :roll:
There is much more in that koan exchange than humor. You would do well to consider that while doing your own meditation while facing a wall.
Still, I admire your enthusiasm.
i never said anything about using psychedelics use WHILE doing bodily training.
you seem to have misinterpreted my words.
i can see that your understanding of zen and buddhism is much better and much deeper than mine indeed; i will therefore sit confortably and hopefully you can help me by pointing to the enlightment you have discovered...
LOL! Come down from there! :P
LOL Fuzz, meet jiku, jiku, fuzz...
Quote from: "fuzz".... hopefully you can help me by pointing to the enlightment you have discovered...
Why do I get the idea that you're only going to be looking at his finger, anyway?
Glad to have you back, jiku-bro.
lw
Quote from: "laughingwillow"LOL Fuzz, meet jiku, jiku, fuzz...
Quote from: "fuzz".... hopefully you can help me by pointing to the enlightment you have discovered...
Why do I get the idea that you're only going to be looking at his finger, anyway?
Glad to have you back, jiku-bro.
lw
:roll:
LOL Why the frown, Satori? You must not understand my point, but maybe I can do a better job in this post....
I believe that true enlightenment comes from within. On a certain level, any attempt by a person to "enlighten" another through words is bound to fail, or be understood superficially at best. For example, I see Jiku's initial posts as an offering of wisdom that the intended recipient has decided to shrug off as an insult while asking to be "enlightened" on the subject at hand.
Fear is a major stumbling block on this path, but not the only one. Conquer those fears and pride is sure to rear its perfectly ugly head....
lw
Speaking of enlightenment on different levels. While preparing to crunch some numbers, I took a listen to a dead show featuring a song that has managed to affect me on many levels, depending on state of mind at the time of consumption. The dead scene has long been seen as "Desolation Row" by the vast majority of people who happen upon the scene. Perception is everything, imo, words mean little or nothing....
........They're spoonfeeding Casanova
To get him to feel more assured
Then they'll kill him with self-confidence
After poisoning him with words
And the Phantom's shouting to skinny girls
"Get Outa Here If You Don't Know
Casanova is just being punished for going
To Desolation Row"
Now at midnight all the agents
And the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone
That knows more than they do
Then they bring them to the factory
Where the heart-attack machine
Is strapped across their shoulders
And then the kerosene
Is brought down from the castles
By insurance men who go
Check to see that nobody is escaping
To Desolation Row
OK, leaving aside the issue that most traditional martial arts practioners for reason always turn out to be pompous, arrogant, self-righteous preaching bastards... oh wait, thats just me and 99% of the people I have dealt with over the last 12 years. Sorry Fuzz, but you sort of hit a nerve. I was trying to be funny but it probably came out a bit harsh and I shouldn't have lumped you in with us without getting to know you better.
That said, there are two things I will say and then shut TFU.
One: I've been studying Zen with a Korean Zen Master for a little over two years now, but my level of understanding and enlightenment could be written on the back of a pack of matches in BIG BOLD LETTERS. Or maybe one number: 0. However, if I have learned nothing else, its that the true Zen practitioner takes their practice more seriously than life and death. There is no room for humor, no room for playing around, no room for idle banter. Its serious as a heart attack.
Whether or not you give any credence to the Buddhist/Zen belief system or not, you should understand this level of seriousness (on the Zen side, anyways as there are many different forms of Buddhism). In the exchange that Bodhidharma had with the emperor, there was nothing intended to be humerous. This was dead cold, serious exchange and the responses given were clearly misunderstood by the emperor even though Bodhidharma was earnestly trying to answer to the best of his ability so that the emperor could understand that his efforts were pointless. From a Zen perspective, this might be viewed as a TRAGEDY, but never a comedy.
And LW is absolutely right about true enlightenment, from what I understand. From the Zen perspective, no one can save you but you. YOU have to do all the work. YOU have to figure it out. Thats why they can be quite brutal in thier efforts to help you understand. Ever hear about the 30 blows? Many koans include the possiblilty of you getting beat with a stick if you don't answer correctly. Only they don't tell you that there is no correct answer. :lol:
In closing:
"And here I sit so patiently, waiting to find out what price,
You have to pay to get out of going through all of these things twice.
But, Oh, MOMMA!, can this really be the end?
To be stuck inside of Mobile, with the Memphis Blues again..."
OK, I never claimed I could count... :roll:
it seems that here, i find myself in the presence of 2 true Masters of Zen. i will therefore try to apply your deep lessons. i will also thank you both for showing me your deep understanding and practice of zen.
thank you for showing me that words can not lead us to the truth, that Zen's dimension of humor is exactly as jikuhchagi understands it and that only YOU can find your own answers. until now, i had no understanding of those concept yet, because as you can probably see i am still a young and uneducated student of Zen.
To see if truly i have understood the true depth of your both comments, here, i will share with you a couple meditations i have on the various dimensions which "humor" can be viewed as, on the possibility to learn from sharing ones understandings and learnings, as well as my comprehension of the "self" versus "no self" in zen tradition (since jikuhchagi seems very keen on the YOU aspect of no self).
my comments are as follows:
....
That was a wonderful sharing, and application of your guys theories.
we should defenetely keep on sharing our experiences and understanding, with each other, as i can feel i have already learned a lot from it. I can now see that without words, it works lots better. without words i can truly feel the depth of Zen practice and the experience of knowing that only YOU can figure it out.
Thank you both for showing me the light... once again...
LOL Zen master? A good day for me is when I'm master of of my own bowels.
Fear and pride...
Some rise
some fall
some climb
to get to Terrapin....
lw
{Master of my own bowels} :lol: Mista Willa; now you just stop that sort of nonsense. :P ...I mean, there's countries falling apart, political chicanery, all sorts of issues to feel bad about... and now, here you are with your tom-foolishness, making me crack a grin on an otherwise day of doldrums...... 'Tis subversive...................sal
Wow, I guess the olive branch wasn't enough...
Quoteit seems that here, i find myself in the presence of 2 true Masters of Zen.
Actually, there are a hell of a lot more than 2 true Zen Masters here. At last count, I think it was 438, but arithmatic was never my strong point.
Quotei will therefore try to apply your deep lessons.
best put on your hip waders first. The lessons aren't the only thing that gets
awefully deep...
Quotemy comments are as follows:
Good answer, but are those comments really yours?
Quotewithout words i can truly feel the depth of Zen practice and the experience of knowing that only YOU can figure it out.
Who is the 'i' that feels the depth? Who is the 'you' that can figure it out?
When you figure that out, hand me my bong, turn off the light, I don't feel like working today.
<<passes bong.
figure what out?
as much entertainment as rethorics can get, i got to "wash some dishes" today, as a dude, somewhere, sometime said.
that is organize the place around here, and cook for this year's group of japanese students whom we're having over for diner.
au menu: quiches, crêpes and vine.
wweeeeehhhh!
enjoy that bong :D
Quote from: "fuzz"figure what out?
The koan that resonates from this thread.
Btw, real zen don't eat quiche...
lw
And, apparently, real zen doesn't laugh.
QuoteWhen you figure that out, hand me my bong, turn off the light, I don't feel like working today.
Actually, the above quote was an homage to the late, great, Jerry Garcia, towards the middle of his decline, but probably not the most appropriate place to post it... if indeed it is appropriate to quote it at all. :cry:
Actually, fuzz, I would have thought if you had read any zen, you would know that dharma combat is an accepted (if not encouraged) form of practice, just as sparring is (hopefully) for whatever the martial art is that you practice. Masters challenge each other all the time, not because they want to prove themselves better or more enlightened but to always keep themselves sharp. Shall we or shall we not?
Satori, its not that the Zen practitioners don't laugh and enjoy humor. Thats not what I meant as the master I study with is probably in the list of top ten funniest people I have ever hung out with. But thats when its social. When it gets down to things like the story Fuzz quoted, there is a real lesson there. Do you think Bodhidharma was just being flip to the emperor? Do you understand the implications of being flip to the emperor? Did you think about why he said what he said? You might as well say that Jesus was joking when he talked about passing a camel through the eye of a needle.
"Shall we or shall we not?"
and i chose the second option.
if you can not see the quality in my answer:" figure what out? ", i could send your own comment right back at you: you must have not read many zen books.
as fascinating, as this all is, jikuhchagi, i am done with this oh so enlightening exchange of a few words with you.
aparently you already know all there is to know, and understand zen as the only way it is to be understood not only for yourself, but also for everyone else. i find this approach to be not of my interest, and find it boring, hence my chosing the "not" option.
ps: as the "serious" practitioner of zen you claim to be, i found your smoking a bong hit, to be very disrespectful to many schools of zen.
to be polite, i'll leave with a space for the local troll to add his ever wise comment, thats laughingwillow:
"TROLL SPACE HERE just add words"
enjoy your wisdom and remember: "dont walk with the fool".
Quote from: "jikuhchagi"Satori, its not that the Zen practitioners don't laugh and enjoy humor. Thats not what I meant as the master I study with is probably in the list of top ten funniest people I have ever hung out with. But thats when its social. When it gets down to things like the story Fuzz quoted, there is a real lesson there. Do you think Bodhidharma was just being flip to the emperor? Do you understand the implications of being flip to the emperor? Did you think about why he said what he said? You might as well say that Jesus was joking when he talked about passing a camel through the eye of a needle.
Well, I do think the story was a humoristic story, but we will never know. I do think that some humor can be used to pass down a serious point.
As one of my favourite philosophers said (though not a zen-buddhist, but since there already has been quotes of not directly zen people, I will give it):
"The wise man has humor, but he takes humor seriously" -Søren Kierkegaard. (and he is in fact being studied very seriously by buddhist philosophers, e.g. the Kyoto School.)
Meaning that even though one can laugh at the humorous story, one can still take the point seriously. And even take the humor itself seriously.
As for the YOU and I bit. Laughing and yourself were the first ones to actually start with the whole YOU need to study and get enlightened YOURself. Fuzz just took you on the words. And if that's the case. What are you doing with a zen-master?
The question you do pose, about who is the "I" that gets enlightened, is a very good question, and has been a Shin-Buddhist critical question towards zen, for a long time. Shin-Buddhists thinks that it is weird to talk so much about self-power transcendence, and still talk about no-mind. In their philosophy enlightenment is more broken apart from the self. There it is the working of the Other-Power, and when one is enlightened, it is the Other-Power (or Amida-Buddha) that works through you.
Though, there has through the ideahistory been attempts to combine the two. E.g. Suzuki Shôsan, a japanese samurai from the late 16th early 17th century Japan. And Tanabe Hajime has alot of sympathi for Zen, but thinks it fails at truly transcending from the self-awareness into Absolute Nothingness.
As for the words bit. I will quote one of my own favourites again.
Kûkai, or post-humously, Kôbô Daishi:
"The sea of Dharma is beyond speech, but without speech it cannot be transmitted". ;)
In the same post I wil raise a critique of the all so popular kôan practice. E.g. Zen master Dôgen thinks that a kôan might just end up in a confusing self-attaching to itself-state, and not lead to any enlightenment at all. I do believe that a critique of the kôan from that standpoint is valid, at least just so people don't attach to the kôan. Because it seems like alot already has done that. People describing it often to be the essence of Zen. Which it is not. Only some schools of Zen practises this form of meditation.
Anyway, to get back onto the topic.
I didn't really see Fuzz preach, she quoted some passages from a book she has read, and shared her opinions about that, and how psychedelics might be used in addition to martial arts. I think that is ok. Even though one has only just learned the wonders of martial arts. Had she gone on, and created her own system, and her own school, and preached a martial arts in some form of institutional way like that, it would have been different. For now I think what has been done is a good way of talking about a form of life one has just discovered. And also talk about how it goes with ones other interests in life. Even thought she doesn't say for how long she has been studying it. Just that she atm is reading this book she is quoting. So here you are just assuming, Jiku, that she is new to it.
And I would say, that a little over two years don't make you the authority to come in with a mocking post like you did.
I haven't read the book by Yoshigasaki myself, but it seems interesting. I might just pick it up one day.
Another book I have been looking through is Morihei Ueshibas book on Aikido. That's a nice book since it contains alot of pictures from Ueshibas calligraphy, and his poems, and martial arts. A very inspiring book to say the least. I look forward to read more on his view of the universe in there.
Peace out.
Give it up, jiku-bro. This is the way most any discussion I've had with fuzz has gone. Maybe its the language barrier.....
Anyway, it appears she is setting up her own little bully-pulpit in cyber-space, so I'm guessing she's looking to be queen of a castle where her sermons are the final word....
lw
nah, notlaughingwillow. we never had any discussions really. after a couple sentences out of you, i could feel the depth of your knowledge and knew that i was no match to your great debater's talents!!
also, a "discussion" is when participants in the debate actually "exchange" ideas. you dont exchange ideas notlaughing, rather you say how it is.
Dont worry about the forum i created, i will remain here as well,just to keep learning from you. Athanor is a non spiritplants project related, as i do have other projects than spiritplants.
since you have shown that besides being the great psychic you are, you are also fluent in french, and that you are correct in that my grasp of the english language is extremely low, i will voice this out in french for you, as it will surely make this easier for you to understand. This is from my heart to you:)
t'es vraiment qu'une pauvre branlette!
your words will always be the highest, you troll in chef.
i'd never try to compete with your allmighty trollness. for you DEFINE trollness.
thank you LW, for making this world a better and more open place to learning and sharing words. Eventhough i dont know why you even paste so much bullshit LW, since according to you, words can point to no truth. But it must be my misunderstanding of your high trollness..
i will keep on studying from your greatness, oh, troll in chef!
keep trolling man....and moslty keep on sharing your amazing understanding of the world with others. it truly makes this world a much better world.
Spend-thrift fisherman
trolling for capriciousness
in shallow waters
Feisty, isn't she? :P I like strong women.
Quoteyou must have not read many zen books.
I think it was Ram Dass' guru who said, "Painted cakes do not a meal make." or something like that. I've read a LOT about a LOT of different things, but in the final analysis, I don't think reading does anything more than expose you to possibilities. It opens a bunch of doors, to be sure, but you can't walk through any of those doors by reading a book.
But come on, don't you want to play? I'll try to play nice...
Quoteas the "serious" practitioner of zen you claim to be, i found your smoking a bong hit, to be very disrespectful to many schools of zen.
Please elaborate? I only practice one form of zen, and honestly even if I did actually smoke a bong hit (its not legal where I live), there would be nothing to disrespect.
Quote"dont walk with the fool".
What's worse, a fool who knows what he is, or a fool who doesn't realize it? I find myself in the former camp and I can't speak for LW, but what about you?
Satori,
I don't remember a whole lot from college, but Kierkegard and the other existentialists were my favorites. And the point on humor is well taken, as I did try to point out... still, that particular story to me? I still don't see the humor, but I guess I have read to much on Bodhidarma and am filled with painted cake! LOL!
and I knew the mistake of trying to even talk about enlightenment, but I had to try, as you pointed out in your quote, words can be a necessary evil (but not always). The key point I have difficulty with discerning in fuzz's posts, and am trying to communicate in my post is the concept of practice and experience. You just can't get those from a book. I study with a zen master because he coaches me on how to practice, nothing more. He is sort of like any other coach. There are drills, and such, but when game time comes around, he isn't the one doing the work.
If I really got the impression that there was anything other than copy/paste going on in Fuzz's post, I would probably have chosen a different tact all together. But obviously, it was the wrong tact to take.
There are a lot of different Buddhist perspectives, and I appreciate your survey.
Regardless of what I have or have not read, or what I have or have not experienced, I do think that a basic core tenet of any zen/buddhist whatever is practice, so I don't have any problem or see any discrepancy in pointing that out, do you? All I was doing was following the lead she had already set up: martial arts + zen. Trying to get her to spar was not necessarily disrespectful, although how I attempted to draw her into it might have been. For that I apologize.
jiku: Feel free to speak for this fool any time, bro. Matter of fact, I composed this one to come from you.
Fierce tempest rises
from motion of silver spoon
in matching teapot.......
lw
Quoteand I knew the mistake of trying to even talk about enlightenment, but I had to try, as you pointed out in your quote, words can be a necessary evil (but not always). The key point I have difficulty with discerning in fuzz's posts, and am trying to communicate in my post is the concept of practice and experience. You just can't get those from a book. I study with a zen master because he coaches me on how to practice, nothing more. He is sort of like any other coach. There are drills, and such, but when game time comes around, he isn't the one doing the work.
Two things to this.
I really think that the retorics of "words can be a necessary evil", is totally misguided to begin with. I really don't think words are any evil. Ones use of the words can be evil. But not the words themselves. And they can be used to point to beauty.
As for the coach thing. I agree that it is necessary to have a teacher to guide one through ones process. But that's how it is in most institutions where one learns or teaches, and develops? You read a book, and some dude tells you about stuff related to, and how to best understand and follow the points. And that happens on many different levels. From simpel childrens books to hardcore philosophical and religious texts.
Seems pretty normal to me. hehe;)
Satori: What you say makes sense from an intellectual standpoint.
However, I believe there is another type of "enlightenment" that has little/nothing to do with knowledge gleaned from a book. I would call this spiritual or even emotional enlightenment, maybe. When words are used in this type of enlightenment, their impact is emotional rather than intellectual, imo.
lw
LW, I like it!
Satori, Misguided? Methinks you must be an author, LOL!
Words are difficult and slippery at best, especially when you are trying to talk about the undescribable. Ever try to communicate an enthogenic experience? My bet is that whomever was listening to you could only relate whatever you said to their own experience. Thats not really communciation, just association. Now try and do the same thing with someone who has never had an entheogenic experience. Sometimes words are inadequate at best.
Words can point to beauty, and although I do appreciate poetry, lyric and song, it all depends upon the skill of the person using them, and the understanding of the one who is receiving them. Most of the time, though, the most powerful words used as symbols and images are devoid of any implied meaning by the author, and the reader is free to associate them as they see fit. Robert Hunter is a good resource if you care to read up more about that.
As for words, though, in my humble experience, telepathy works so much better, when its on. LOL! Too bad I've never been able to harness it. :roll:
Regardless, this is a world of duality so saying 'Words can be a necessary evil' is no worse (or misguided) than saying that 'Words can point to beautry'. Neither negates the other as they are two sides to the same coin.
Still I would be interested in hearing a more well developed argument if you care to pose one.
Also, a coach is a LOT different than a teacher. There is a big difference. And my coach doesn't have us read any books, LOL!
On a certain level, I have no issue with reading. Believe me, I have read my share in the past. Books can expose you to a lot of ideas, and thats all well and good, but until you actually put the book down and apply those ideas directly through some practice, you aren't really doing anything.
For instance, I can read a book about watercolor painting, one on color theory, one on lighting techniques and one on brush stroke techniques, but until I put the book down and start painting, I certainly can't say I learned anything, nor will I ever actually know if I did. Does that make sense?
Sorry for the late reply, but I have been busy planning and taking care of a trip to Japan, starting at the end of this month, and going til August :D weee!
But I will sort of reply to the two above posts:
LW: I am glad my post makes sense on an intellectual level. Because I think it is important to combine the spiritual side with the intellectual. So that one gets a sort of spiritual intellect. I think this is important, to always keep ones mind sharp, and still develop ones spirituality. And also be able to express it to others, and live a religious/spiritual ethic life. (I think Ibn ‘Arabi has a lot of good reflections on this. I think it is from him I have gotten inspired to this idea. But I don’t see other traditions disagreeing with this point…)
Jikuhchagi: “Regardless, this is a world of duality so saying 'Words can be a necessary evil' is no worse (or misguided) than saying that 'Words can point to beautry'. Neither negates the other as they are two sides to the same coinâ€
That sentence shows we don’t disagree so much at all. I just have a bit of a different way of viewing it.
I view it, also as you say. There are two levels of reality. One is the conventional level, which is the level of distinction. Where paintings, words, music, selves are arising and dissolving etc. And then there is the Absolute level, which is the level where there is no distinctions. These two levels co-exist, and one cannot be without the other.
Now, from the conventional level, every talk about the Absolute is from a point of the conventional level. And will, as you also say, not ever convey the Absolute in its totality, but, as Nagarjuna also said, one cannot help but try to convey it anyway. So therefore the question arises: How does one use words the best as a skillfull mean to lead towards the moon ;). And the same with music, paintings, and other arts and craftmanships.
I think this question is a necessary question to ask as an ethical question, since it will be the means of using the conventional as a skillfull means to lead others to realise certain aspects of reality. To use words wrongly, false words, will trap people further into a sort of lie that clings to the ephemeral phaenomenons in the conventional level.
Kûkai also explains (udfolder in danish, don't know a good word for it in english) out a theory of the correct way of using words a whole lot in his esoteric Shingon (which means “Truth Words†in Japanese.), where mandala, mantra, mudra etc. practises are used to attain enlightenment.
And to use words in a good way, I also think, as I replied to LW, that it is good to have sharpened ones spiritual intellect, and not just forget about that part of reality.
For, to be sure, to cling to the absolute, and forget about the conventional reality, is often referred to as Sunyata-sickness, or sunyata-perversity. Which is an attachment to the Absolute, where one will loose the ground for enlightenment, which is the conventional. The two levels co-exist.
About the teacher vs. coach thing. I just want to say that I meant more the general tencency, that there is a student/searcher/novice and a teacher/pandit/guru/coach. Where the latter instructs the former. I see this as the general way it is?
And to be sure, your zen-master does use words when he coaches you, right? Or do you sit and stare at each other in silence? Hehe :P
Words do exist outside of books ;)
And yes it makes a lot of sense that one needs to practice to get anywhere. Only reading is not a very good idea if one wants to develop beyond certain levels ;). But I do think, as stated, that words and books (as well as paintings, music etc.), can help one sharpen and change perspectives that is good to have in one's practical life as well.
That’s also why I started Aikido 4 years ago. And have been doing Zazen meditation, some yoga etc. Because I do find that side to be very important, as you also say.
Edit: Formulationmistakes corrected.
Edit: Post deleted. It would be nice if people could keep their not-thought-through assumptions for themselves. I don't know you peoples personal lives, and you don't know mine. So please keep that away from here.
Sorry for pointing out that detail of your personal life, bro. :roll:
Back to the topic, at hand... Congrats on the time you've spent studying Aikkido. Excuse me for my ignorance on this paticular martial art, but is there a celebration or something for every year completed? :D
lw
Quote from: "laughingwillow"Sorry for pointing out that detail of your personal life, bro. :roll:
Back to the topic, at hand... Congrats on the time you've spent studying Aikkido. Excuse me for my ignorance on this paticular martial art, but is there a celebration or something for every year completed? :D
lw
Well, you didn't actually point anything out from my personal life :P. Since it was false.
Thanks alot on the congrats there :).
Usually you pass a grade every year, going, as an adult starting with shôkyu and then from 5th kyu to 1st kyu, and then the Dan degrees. I think. But since I have been very busy with getting school work to work out, I have only passed two. The Shôkyu and 5th Kyu. hehe.
On top of that we also have Ki-tests. Which is very Ki-oriented and is about to get a more wholistic experience of the body.
But man, after a few years, when some of the movements start to flow, and one learns these ki-excersises, ones body-awareness really change. I have started experiencing some really nice stuff, with unity of body-mind and a more easily controlled breathing in periods of stress, which is helping so much in daily life and studies too.