Not the best story. They interview the mother of the guy who commited suicide and say she is trying to show a connection between salvia and the suicide. This is because she can find NO other reason for the suicide. And she is now pushing for salvia to be banned. Sounds like she is in denial. I've heard of a recent study that show when parents are treated for depression, usually the kids depression goes away. That sounds a little more reasonable.
The do present some information regarding recent research into salvia and some who say it shouldn't be totally banned as schedule 1.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5290545 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5290545)
I don't think it should be categorized as a schedule 1 or controlled substance. Although I do feel it should be limited to at least 21 years of age or older. :)
Grow one if you're not already ... this one is not long for the licit world.
What a shame bro, that she is saying this. The scene that unfolded at the party after the rave in Seattle, keeps playing in my mind. Before the Nook portal went down yesterday, the real story was being told there. The media likes to distort anything they can to get the story to sell to the twisted little 8astards that get off on horror, tragedy, and hate. Sally in the mind of LEO's is just as bad as any drug, yet they forget that pharmeceuticals are drugs and nasty drugs at that, yet they can't make money off a medicine that grows out of the ground. So instead the lobbyist convince all the ignorant people of the law that these plants are worse than pharms. I could go on, even about if they make the plant "drugs" illegal then they should cigarettes also, but I hate to rant to the choir.
Those who know me know that I only use one drug that is considered a psychoactive and that is Sally. All others I care not for. Don't get me wrong, I grow many of them, just do not want to try them. I am mostly into medicinals and the old magic.
Hanging out on these forums and with drug users however, has helped me to realize that there are three main types of drug users; one that uses them for recreation, those who are addicted, and those that use them traditionally/medicinally. It is a sick world that would ban plants and not manmade drugs, wake up and realize this people! It has taken too much for people to realize who Bush is, will it take this much to from Earth to make the people of the world to take notice. I am afraid if people do not start to go back to their roots, they will soon be forced to do so. Listen to your plant allies, they have more knowledge than any of us combined. I do not know where I am going with this, just I am sick of it all and the battles that occur between everyone.
The women it sounds, like she should be the one trying Sally, heck everyone should try Sally and get a dose of their own medicine! Sally says it like it is and I respect her for that, just wish more people did also.
QuoteSally says it like it is and I respect her for that, just wish more people did also.
I think you are trying to say that because salvia takes your ego away completely, it levels the playing field for observation. All the delusions disapear, hey Bush should really try this.
Still though most people don't like having their ego taken away because their ego is all that they have. These people seem to me as incredibly self centered and very much so emersed in their own perceptions of reality. Not being able to adapt and let go accordingly is a character flaw in my eyes, perhaps I am wrong.
Limiting the use of Salvia to 21 year olds seems fair. Just as long as the lies and unproven "facts" passed to us via propaganda don't start.
I meant what I said, Sally talks to me, she does not just break me away and makes my ego nill. I know she has differing effects on everyone she meets, so what I may feel will be different from your experiences. Her and I have an understanding, and I ask her help for a much different problem than most here and have for a much longer period. Her and I go back almost ten years now and I only use her when I deem necessary, which in the past year has been decreasing thanks to her. I do not pretend to understand her completely, and those who do are, in my opinion, flat out ignorant fools. There are many allies in this world but most ask much more in return. Sally reminds me of the teacher mescaline, and how he teaches instead of taking paths. I feel Sally does both teaching and showing paths.
In my opinion Sally is as powerful or more than Datura, but she does not ask of your soul. I like to grow datura for her beauty, but that is it. I despise that plant for entheo use and feel that at first datura may seem the easy way out, but in the end you will find she is nothing but for the weak. (That is if you even know how to properly use her) You do not have much control when with datura and she is a forked tongue speaker, from what I have gathered from friends who have tried her and stories I have read. I know I will probably offend a few here with this view, but this is my view and opinions just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.
I also feel that anybody should be allowed to use plants wothout age restrictions, albeit I do not condone smoking, or the harshness Sally is treated by some, but no one should be denied of age. Just so everyone knows, I am most certainly over 21. Sally has a lot of properties that could benefit many. Forget recreational use, this is not what she is about. I feel if only used for recreation, yeah, ban her to those under the age of 21, but she has so much to offer why should some lawmaker or a group of lawmakers be greater than the wise ones that created these plants? Heck most lawmakers can't even distinguish their @$$ from that empty hollow thing on their shoulders because they are too busy brown nosing those that grease their pockets or reputation.
Hyakitaki, I respect your views and your brashness, please though next time do not try to translate what I say unless you truly know what I am saying. Do not take offense, as I said I respect your style, just do not try to take my view to resemble yours. We are individual and unique, which is the way it should stay. Okay, I am finally off of the soapbox.
Keep an open mind eh dergheist, it truley is the best way to approach anything and everything...thanks for reminding me
I agree with Siebert: it should be regulated like alcohol and tobacco. I also think it should be illegal to promote it as a smoke-product without full disclosure of the psychological effects--mainly dissociation, potential for blackouts, and possible harmful behavior when in a blacked out state. The fact that it can make you black out and engage in erratic behavior is reason for concern; any time a drug's advocates recommend having a sitter present for a particular type of use, it's going to send up a red flag. The feds aren't going to distinguish between oral consumption and smoking, because there's no way to police the culture that promotes the latter. Despite the differences in how it effects brain chemistry, any drug that causes a dissociative state and blackouts is going to remind the government of PCP.
Despite what people think, smoking it is traumatic, otherwise it wouldn't cause a dissociative state. Anything that diminishes ego function to that extent is dangerous; the more popular it becomes, the more damaged or ignorant individuals will use it to reinforce negative behavior patterns. We have a headshop that sells it locally, and I've already had run-ins with violent types who were smoking it while walking around looking for trouble. I don't particularly like the thought of some wigger fuckup beating me to death with his skateboard while in a blacked out state, or because the egoless OBE he's having is threatening his machismo. People buying it headshops smoke this stuff like it's pot, and most of them don't know that it can cause blackouts.
This kid already had suicidal notions, and made apparent by his suicide notes, his SD experience reinforced his conclusions that led him to suicide. I don't think anyone should try to play that down, because it gives us excuses to continue promoting its irresponsible use. I fully agree with the curanderos--smoking it is disrespectful to the power of the plant, and ultimately a self-destructive path. I don't know if the kid smoked it, but if he didn't, it just goes to show that it can still be dangerous when used by someone who has problems and no cultural context.
"his SD experience reinforced his conclusions that led him to suicide."
Really, most everything you've written is spectulation and conjecture. His suicide could be connected to his acne medication, his parents divorce, school pressures, sexual/relationship pressures, etc.
Oh, really? They read his suicide note on TV, and he made it perfectly clear that SD showed him the reality that we're all just specks, life is pointless, and that he would be happy committing suicide. That's pretty clear-cut. You can't argue with the boy...
Smoked SD causes a dissociative state, and it can make you black out and do irrational, dangerous things. PCP does the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if Salvinorin A is chemically different than PCP and stimulates different receptors; the variety of outcomes is the same. I can handle smoking PCP because I'm a sane, rational individual with a healthy ego, and because I've had 20 years of experience with hallucinogens; I don't choose to, but I have the life-experiences and state of mind to get through something like that. That doesn't apply to everyone else that might smoke PCP, nor does it apply to everyone else who might smoke SD, which is just as harsh on the psyche. We live in an isolative culture that is a breeding ground for dissociative disorders; SD used by a wide variety of people in the general public is going to have the same impact as PCP, whether you like it or not. I've already seen proof of that in the youth subcultures of my own town, where it's readily available at local head shops. Despite all the hype about it not being addictive or habitual, kids around here are smoking it like pot, and it's influencing their behavior in a lot of negative ways.
Some wigger asshole almost shot me under the influence of SD because he had some paranoid delusion that I was a vampire and that he was a vampire hunter. Don't tell me that this shit isn't dangerous; it's already become a concern for law enforcement.
You're right; you ARE too stoned to type. Just because something is good for a you and a small group of similar-minded people doesn't mean it's good or safe for everyone.
Quote from: "mykayl"Oh, really? They read his suicide note on TV, and he made it perfectly clear that SD showed him the reality that we're all just specks, life is pointless, and that he would be happy committing suicide. That's pretty clear-cut. You can't argue with the boy...
Smoked SD causes a dissociative state, and it can make you black out and do irrational, dangerous things. PCP does the exact same thing. It doesn't matter if Salvinorin A is chemically different than PCP and stimulates different receptors; the variety of outcomes is the same. I can handle smoking PCP because I'm a sane, rational individual with a healthy ego, and because I've had 20 years of experience with hallucinogens; I don't choose to, but I have the life-experiences and state of mind to get through something like that. That doesn't apply to everyone else that might smoke PCP, nor does it apply to everyone else who might smoke SD, which is just as harsh on the psyche. We live in an isolative culture that is a breeding ground for dissociative disorders; SD used by a wide variety of people in the general public is going to have the same impact as PCP, whether you like it or not. I've already seen proof of that in the youth subcultures of my own town, where it's readily available at local head shops. Despite all the hype about it not being addictive or habitual, kids around here are smoking it like pot, and it's influencing their behavior in a lot of negative ways.
Some wigger asshole almost shot me under the influence of SD because he had some paranoid delusion that I was a vampire and that he was a vampire hunter. Don't tell me that this shit isn't dangerous; it's already become a concern for law enforcement.
You're right; you ARE too stoned to type. Just because something is good for a you and a small group of similar-minded people doesn't mean it's good or safe for everyone.
Tragic as it may be this kid was destined to commit suicide. Whether he was smoking SD or not. It's always the same old shit..."he never showed any signs, he had straight A's in school...blah, blah, blah." No one really knew what was going on inside his mind but he was going to attempt it regardless. The thoughts were already present in his mind before smoking.
There's always going to be people out there who "can't handle" what they're doing at the time, whether they're under the influence of something or not. Whether it's driving a car on a rainy day or the pressures forced upon us at work or with family. This kid couldn't handle it and decided the best method was to get out by ending his life.
I ask you...How many times have you been fed up with how things have been going on in your life? What do you do to relieve the stress or take your mind to another place? Drink a few beers/glass of wine? Take a couple of bong hits? Hit the gym, exercise? Just a few examples of what people do to take the edge off on a daily basis. So many options out there yet the weak minded see things as hopeless.
Not everyone has self control like you and I; that's why there's laws regulating who can buy alcohol, tobacco, etc., and laws about disclosure of health risks. Besides, you don't know that he would have committed suicide if he hadn't taken SD; My mother has bipolar disorder and suicidal thoughts, but instead of self-medicating with drugs that could exacerbate her low self-esteem, she got help and is still alive and functional today.
Everything indicates that yes, SD played a factor in his decision. If you can't see that, then you have some serious denial issues. Additionally, I haven't seen any indication anywhere that he had a verifiable history of suicidal thought prior to his use of SD, so unless you can show me a news report of some shrink saying he had suicidal thoughts prior to any drug use, we can never really know that for sure. The only thing we have is his journal entry and his suicide note, which was merely an extension of the thoughts he expressed in his journal; ergo, from the available evidence, we can only conclude that SD drove him to his death. Going by what he wrote, his conclusion came rather suddenly, after discovering some "universal truth" while under the influence of SD; one that he claims took his whole life to arrive at, because prior to his 17th year, he didn't have this wonderful, truth-telling plant in his life. Even with proof of prior suicidal thoughts, it still doesn't prove that potent, mind altering drugs weren't a factor in his final decision.
The fact is, he shouldn't have had access to something that powerful without full disclosure of the psychological and medical risks, nor should he have had access to it before the age of 21. At the very least, this sort of thing demands commercial regulation. Sure, it's illegal to suck down a bottle of robitussin to get high, but at least people daring enough to do so know the health risks.
I don't care what it does to YOU, or how YOU handle things; some people can't. Thats why prohibitive laws exist: to protect people like you and me from ignorant, arrogant kids who like to walk around stoned on potentially dangerous substances with guns in their pockets. What don't you understand about that? If you had a choice, would you sell a gun to someone with a history of crime, instability and criminal intent, or allow the government to be lax on regulating who gets guns? Would you hand a known enemy a knife, and trust him to do the right thing? Would you give a bottle of poison to your young child without informing him of the danger, and trust that he won't drink down the whole bottle the minute you turn your back? How about tobacco--did you know that cigarettes were once sold as a cough and congestion remedy? Aren't you glad that today's laws prohibit the tobacco industry from filling our heads wih those sorts of pipe-dreams?
Putting all idealistic notions aside, there's a thing called social and economic responsibility. Did you know that if I'm a landlord and I knowingly rent a property to someone who intentionally ingests chemicals that could make him black out and do rash things {i.e., someone who has to have 4 or 5 sitters around because he smokes way too much SD}, that person becomes an insurance liability to me, because I had foreknowledge of his destructive behavior? It doesn't matter that it's legal; if the insurance company finds out I knew and encouraged his use of mind-altering chemicals that made him trash my place in a blacked-out state, I lose my insurance claim, just like if I invited a known drunk with a criminal history to live in my property. Do you really think that there are no legal ramifications to this? Why do you think hotels ask for huge security deposits from rock bands? Generally speaking, insurance doesn't cover consent to reckless behavior.
Even Siebert claims that smoking SD puts the brain on "automatic", and that people see things within their own subconscious that they often misinterpret as objective, external experiences because their conscious mind {the ego} is not fully functioning under the influence of salvinorin A. In other words, it puts you in a waking dream, in which you may not be capable of distinguishing reality from fantasy, just like PCP. Despite the sense of heightened consciousness, the reality is that it puts people in a drunken stupor. Just like with alcohol or PCP, it can make you black out and do or say crazy shit that other people end up having to pay for; ergo, it should be handled with the same regulatory kid-gloves.
Even if it's outlawed in all 50 states, it would insure some sort of responsibility, because the availability factor kicks in. Who is going to buy something rare {and therefore way too expensive} if they can get the same effects eating shrooms or dropping acid, with a longer lasting trip? Only serious individuals with a traditional context would bother to use it, and only because they're growing it themselves. That's better than some kid with suicidal or homicidal tendencies smoking it because it was made readily available to every Tom, Dick and Harry...
The blame isn't on the drug, it's on the culture that is popularizing its irresponsible use, and on the perpetuation of the false notion that it's harmless for everyone who might use it. You can't make that culture go away, nor can you force your idealized culture of responsibility on everyone, due to a little thing called diversity of the species. People who act like lesser animals must be treated like lesser animals, lest they steal away your life. That's just the basic law of survival. I didn't write the Book of Life, bro, it's just the way things are. For ALL of us...
I have to agree with Mykayl to a point guys. I have had Sally as an ally for nine years, and I do not condone smoking her, yet I will not hate ya for it if you do. What concerns me is the fact of all the newbies that have heard vaguely of her and are willing to go at her smoking 10x or higher! I must say that it is a shame that this or any plant is regulated, but I am torn between idiot lawmakers and idiots abusing her. Sally will always as all allys, be abused by some and very few will use her as she is meant, but who am I to say that any plant should be illegal. If some fool dies from using her, good, one less idiot in the world. Sounds cruel, but isn't that nature's way of weeding out the bad? I think that the threats should be made known, but the plant should not be illegal, only restricted to those of 21 and older. The plant does have a medicinal side to her also, and in fact helps with depression and I can attest to this first hand. Some refer to the anti-depression effect as the afterglow, but that is only words. All I know is I do not give a damn when she is made illegal, as I will continue keeping her as an ally. Just my two cents.
To ignore the dangers is foolish, like selling the stuff as incense and super xxx extractions - - - however by publishing the truth, it is only used against this harmless plant.
Currently in Colorado there is a push to treat marijuana they do alchohol. This makes sense to me. That is it is legal for those over 21 or with ones parents permission (This is an important Constitutional issue). Saliva should be treated the same - - - if there really is such a concern to protect the children.
Whew, what a thread. I must ring in here with a few observations concerning what others here have put forth as 'fact'.... Seems to me that there are a few general schools of though concerning Salvia usage, as well as the herbs effect.... Some refer to the disaccociative effects as being more or less a PCP type experience.... I say (just my own subjective take, of course), that the Salvia experience is way, way, removed from PCP... (Yes, I've experience both in high dosage) ... Wheras my few PCP outings have always had me regretting my ingestion; Sally called to me instantly.... PCP had me in an altered state in which, besides the otherworldly visuals, I felt an almost prevading sense of resentment/anger/and rage... (not acted upon, however).... Salvia does take me to a highly altered state, but one that I inately sense to be benevolent/healing/educational.. One I crave to mine for its beckonong intristic riches..... For me, the Kappa Opoid Sal A is firing receptors a world removed from PCP..... As far as Shamanism/smoking/quidding and the rest.... I have nothing of value to add, though I submit that whatever path one travels; if the end result is of benefit, then that path is completely right and good, and If that flies in the face of traditionalism and historic precedent, then fine, so what and so be it...... sal
I can't find a reliable source, but it seems Brett's journal entry contained the thoughts about salvia. This was written some time before the suicide. I can't find anywhere where the actual suicide note mentions salvia. Are these published somewhere?
These are some cool responses! Dergheist, I totally agree with you on all points. Too stoned to type, I apologize for coming across so harsh; I wasn't trying to start an argument or knock your idealism, just trying to move things to a middle ground. As for protection of children, I think that's valid, but I think lawmakers are looking out more for the interests of responsible adults who might end up on the wrong end of a gun, knife or car. I read what you wrote about the sitch in Colorado, and I think that's totally awesome; I hope it happens everywhere, as a matter of federal law.
As for the diary and note, on TV they read an excerpt from the note that mentions the truth he learned from salvia, and questioning how he could go on living knowing that truth {the pointlessness of life mentioned in his diary, but not directly mentioned in the note, if I remember correctly}. He even mentions that he can't go into detail about what he learned because it would bring chaos into other's lives; he apparently wasn't expecting anyone to read his diary entries. As for the note, it's longer in its entirety than the sound bytes would have us believe; I've heard one reading mentioning salvia's "truth" and the resolve to end his life, and another that only mentions his taking 17 years to learn the secret of life. The print versions are equally compartmentalized, leaving out important details.
Just from what I've seen from an array of TV and in print articles, I'd have to sadly agree that it's a clear-cut case. Even if it's blurred hype and they could somehow prove that it had nothing to do with his decision to end his life, I still think it needs regulation just because of my own experiences with reckless users; I haven't seen anything on the news about those types of incidents, but knowing the state of things, I'm pretty sure it goes on a lot more than we know. Like the lawmakers, I'm more concerned about the social impact than whether or not it influences someone to discreetly end their own life.
The woman who introduced the bill even made that point about the need to regulate anything that could influence a person to jump out a window, drive recklessly or commit acts of assault or murder. I don't agree with her sweeping solution, but I can at least agree with her on her reasons. I was getting stoned with some people in a third story apartment once, and one of them was on acid and thought aliens were invading the building. He jumped off the balcony and ran off. We found him and he came down okay, but having no way of knowing his state of mind, we couldn't foresee his actions in time to prevent him from jumping. He's very fortunate that he didn't hurt himself, and others are fortunate that he didn't try to kill anyone while under his drug-induced delusion of alien invaders. Anything that can do that to the mind needs careful consideration.
Senorsalvia, I'll agree with you that not all people react to it like PCP, but there are many who do, myself included when I smoke it. I don't get the same type of ambience I get on PCP, but I definitely get the paranoia, feeling like a robot, everything looking like plastic and bulging to an insane degree, and feeling more homicidal than fantasy usually allows for. I think that has more to do with a person's biochemistry and resulting psychological temperament than anything. I've read other people's testimonies of feeling agitated when around other people on SD, and I understand that it could turn into a bad thing if used by a person who for whatever reason lacks self-control.
The funny thing is that I smoked some SD a few weeks after that kid threatened my life while on it. My thoughts went directly to him, and I became bent on destroying him any way I could the next time I saw him in public. Of course that never happened, and I calmed down that reactive thought process over several weeks, but it goes to show how it can affect some people who normally wouldn't even follow a thought process to such depths. I think I definitely would have lost my self-control if I'd chosen to continue smoking it.
This has been an interesting and challenging discussion.
Zedrov y bogat ko vesa om vam {health and wealth to all of you}
"Just from what I've seen from an array of TV and in print articles..."
You know you can't believe everything you read and see on TV. These stories have obviously been slanted to promote certain political agendas. You, yourself, mistook an old journal entry for Brett's suicide note due to the way it was presented by television. No, you don't remember correctly, and there is a reason for it, you weren't suppose to. The tv just wanted you to remember salvia was bad.
I still can't find transcripts of these documents in their entirety, but I don't think Brett mentions salvia at all in the suicide note. He makes reference only to "a better place". (//http://www.natchezbound.com/Better_Place.mp3) Sure many of us here might agree salvia space is that "better place" so often referenced in literature, song and culture, but really, he could have meant anything. He could have been talking about the Christian "Heaven" so many have committed suicide in a misguided attempt to obtain.
"Mom and Dad, don't worry about me," Brett wrote in his suicide note. "Please don't cry. I love you guys so much. I always have. Take a vacation. You deserve it. Please do not be sad. I want you to carry on your lives. Remember me and be happy when you think of me, not sad. Tell yourselves I'm in a better place, because I am. I'm sorry I didn't get to say goodbye before this, but I love you."
Also, who was this note written to? Brett's birth mother, who is making this whole stink about salvia, implies the note was to her. But she was on vacation in Europe when this all happened. Is that vacation part sarcasm? Or the note was written to someone else - perhaps a step-mother?
Say has divorce ever been linked to suicide? He's something interesting, China has seen an alarming increase in unhappy people. There, suicide is "the leading cause of death in persons aged between 15 and 34 years." Access Asia. Hey, there's not much salvia in China, yet social and economic pressures to succeed are higher than ever (much like Brett was facing).
Actually, I think the people who are reaching for answers to Brett's suicide by blaming some obscure and harmless plant are in denial when the answers are staring them in the mirror.
As for the vampire incident - it sounds totally fabricated, but still - the guys were toting around guns and would have been after your vampire ass had they smoked salvia or not. You got to quit hanging out in front of the head shop, watching and waiting for people to smoke salvia anyway. Do you support gun control? That would be a better place to start if you want to stop the vampire hunters anyhow.
Actually, I was walking into an Office Depot store, and he had followed me into the parking lot when I got out of the car. The head shop in my town is nowhere near Office Depot.
I didn't say I was a vampire; in his fucked up perception, he did. Nothing you think or say could possibly excuse his actions, so you need to calm the fuck down. He had just watched a vampire flick in a theater 3 blocks away from the Depot, and he happened to be smoking an SD joint in the theater parking lot with his girfriend when he looked up and saw me pulling out of a parking lot across the street. Just because he saw me wearing sunglasses and got all paranoid doesn't give him, you, or anyone else the right to stalk me for three blocks on foot and threaten my life with a gun.
On the influence of SD, gun-totin' wigger-boy's movie-fantasy got the best of him--not some prior belief in vampires or mystical insight, neither of which he had. He was fucked up on an hallucinogenic chemical, and that was his only excuse. The fact that he couldn't come to his senses in that 3 block walk tells me that salvinorin A was doing something to inhibit his judgement. I've read accounts of people believing that Sesame Street characters were alive and living on their ceiling after smoking SD, so it's not a stretch to say that SD had a similar effect on him.
I don't hang around head shops; I purchased my herb online. In fact, the only time I go into town is to do business or get food. I don't know about you, hippie, but some people do have lives.
Here's what I know about that head shop that sold him his herb: by selling SD as a drug when it hasn't been recognized or approved as one by the FDA, they were violating state and federal law. They were also violating a state law that prohibits the sale of any non-scheduled item being passed off as having the same or similar affects as a controlled substance, and another state law that says it's a crime to sell any inebriant or substance being passed off as an inebriant to minors, regardless of whether or not it's a controlled substance. I don't feel comfortable with that, under ANY circumstances. You don't either from what I gather from your posts, but here you are, arguing with me.
In concerns to the case with Brett, neither one of us has all the facts, so it's a moot point. I stick with Occam's Razor logic, because in matters of business and public safety, it works. Unlike you, I don't care whether or not Big Brother is trying to take away my personal stash of wacky weed; I just care whether or not someone under the influence of hallucinogens is putting a gun in my face. I don't even care that this kid committed suicide, and I'm guessing that the Delaware state legislators don't really care much either. They have a whole shitload of legal and business issues to worry about that you haven't even taken the time to consider; Brett's suicide was just a political excuse to shelter the general public from the consequences of a few kids' irresponsible use.
From what I've seen, a lot of new users are smoking it in public, and I'm pretty sure that was a bigger issue for them than one person sniffing barbecue fumes in the privacy of his garage after smoking SD in his dark closet. It may not be fair, but until it's challenged in court by opposing legislators and business interests, it's the only barrier Delaware citizens have against reckless SD-smokers doing to them what one tried to do to me. If they criminalized it in my state, I'd be happy with it for the time being, because I don't really need to use SD to take me to some special place in my head, and neither does anybody else. People all over the world have been doing it for thousands of years without the aid of entheogens, and that isn't going to change if one more of them is outlawed. If people are too lazy to seek out a method that doesn't involve drugs, or are too cowardly to go shroom picking, that's none of my concern. Shamanism and Sorcery are hard Paths; no one ever said it was going to be easy.
I don't see a viable business competition paradigm in the Delaware scenario, so I'm guessing there was a history of abuse and law enforement involvement that led up to legislators hyping a suicide case to justify criminalization. I don't know that for sure, but knowing what I do about political science and economics, I'm thinking it's a safe bet. If this were really a moral issue, don't you think the government would have federally scheduled SD a long time ago? The people in the DEA still can't make up their mind how to handle this, and it's been available in our country for nearly half a century.
The law is going to do what it wants, people are still going to do what they want, so I don't see why you care whether or not SD can be proven to be a destructive influence in some people's lives. For the most part I don't care, but I'm still not going to hand a stranger a gun that he doesn't know is loaded, and invite him to point it at me or himself. At the end of the day, people still need to know the potential consequences of their actions, and be informed of any legitemate concerns; people facilitating those actions with products have a social obligation to make sure of that, and to exercise some caution if they think a customer's use of the product is going to pose a potential threat to the safety and well-being of others. All the optimism and idealism in the world isn't going to make SD or anything remotely like it safe for everyone under all circumstances.
I don't believe in total prohibition, but I believe in regulating anything that could make people act erratic in a diminished mental state, whether it's alcohol, or some other sort of mind-altering chemical. I haven't seen any proof that salvia divinorum DOESN'T diminish one's mental faculties, and plenty of proof that it DOES, so I'm sticking to my opinion on this matter. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm going to stick to the facts. I may not have all the facts about the Brett case, but I have enough facts from a variety of sources and experiences to know better than to think your arguments are even remotely valid.
I've made some agreeable, fact-based concessions, but you're still arguing, which leaves me to believe that you don't know exactly what it is you're arguing about, mr. rebel without a cause. I'm a businessman, and this is beginning to waste my valuable time, so I'm going to leave you to your inner struggle about what's "fair", while I stick to worrying about what's pragmatic and practical in real world scenarios. I've said all I have to say on this matter, and I won't be reading any more of your posts. Once again and for the last time, I leave by saying, "you ARE too stoned too type"....
No one seems to be arguing except for you. Maybe you should re-read this thread. About all I did was point out the error in your posting regarding salvia divinorum being mentioned in Brett's suicide note. It is not! I guess I did imply if your facts such as these are in error, maybe your conclusions are as well - but that's not really arguring - its having a reasonalbe discussion. Something you don't seem capable of without attempting personal insults.
Except for maybe that part I wrote about your vampire story to be a total fabraction. Which the more you post the more it seems I was correct. So what did the police say when you told them of your encounter with the vampire hunters? Had they heard of salvia d. or did you "educate" them as to the dangers?
Oh well. Thanks for not posting here anymore.
quote myk:Brett's suicide was just a political excuse to shelter the general public from the consequences of a few kids' irresponsible use.
We at the guild wish to respectfully disagree. The publicity over Brett's death has been a devious attempt to link the ingestion of salvia with suicidal tendencies; a political excuse to further erode the rights of otherwise law abiding citizens.
From reading recent posts, we at the guild have come to the conclusion that the poster in question is doing his best to malign salvia d by conjuring up outright lies and false claims of responsibility for imaginary actions. A(nother) cage rattling expedition, if you will....
guild rep #9
Well, I don't know - the more I think about it, the more I think I was too hasty and judgmental. Maybe he is a vampire and salvia has properties we should be instigating. He was in a vehicle and they were able to track him down on foot. It took some people years to see michael is a vampire and some kids coming out of a movie noticed him right away. Still don't think its right to be shooting at such drains on society and such.
Well, moderator, you made me laugh, so I have to do justice to this one last time:
Actually, he was arrested and charged for public intoxication, carrying an unliscensed firearm, brandishing it in public, and making death threats. They found the stash of SD on both of them, and he admitted to having been under the influence of SD when he pulled his gun on me; so did his girlfriend, who I thank for jerking him aside and laughing to distract him.
Cops around here know about SD, and this wasn't the first time they've had to deal with public disturbances related to public SD-smoking. It happened back when Blade: Trinity was in theaters, and they'd known about it then for quite some time. Despite my puny size, this kid thought I was Triple-H's character in the movie. I don't look anything like Triple-H; I don't even have the same hair color. I'm insulted that he didn't think I was Deacon Frost; he's my favorite character in the Blade series *LOL*
One of the cops told me that he'd arrested a kid once for breaking in a car window with a skateboard while on it, because he thought he was a knight slaying a dragon. Laughable as it may seem, that's a serious problem, especially since he wasn't known for that sort of behavior prior to his SD habit.
As for Brett's suicide note, you're still bickering over finer points of a note that you don't have in your hand. I just know what they claimed it said on the news, and despite any speculations I might have about his inner process, I don't claim to know any more or less than that. Drugs negatively influence the decision-making process in imbalanced individuals, and that much has been scientifically proven, regardless of whether SD was the specific influence in Brett's case.
Because of what he wrote in his journal entry, and the words he used to frame his experience, I still think it was; apparently, whatever experts were called in to determine the facts of this case think so too. You may not be okay with that, but I am.
That's all the government and law enforcement agencies care about, and it's all I care about, after what I've experienced. Since there are so many imbalanced people out there attracted to drug use out of a desire to self-medicate, it makes unregulated drug use a potential threat to public safety. You may not agree with that sort of criteria being used for legislative decisions, but having been on the wrong end of a gun, I do. Prohibition in Delaware may not agree with my politics, but at least something is being done there that will make other people sit up and ask the hard questions. Being the evil monster that I am, I can sleep with that.
I didn't say I was a vampire; those are your words. Whether or not I actually am one is still completely irrelevant to the facts of this discussion. We agree on some things and disagree on others, and I'm okay with that. We've hashed this out past the point of antiquity, so you should let it go.
quote myk: One of the cops told me that he'd arrested a kid once for breaking in a car window with a skateboard while on it, because he thought he was a knight slaying a dragon. Laughable as it may seem, that's a serious problem, especially since he wasn't known for that sort of behavior prior to his SD habit.
That statement above is a bunch of hooey, in our opinion. You are making up scenarios to fit your argument. Your lies are what's laughable. That or the kids reasoning for criminal activity. Either or both are lies.
As for you being a sorcerer who kills "those unnaturally clinging to life," and the example you used to verify and prove your ability to murder from long distances... more lies, leaving you as the only one able to verify the incident. Not real conclusive for an objective reality check. An act you said you performed an that we must rely on your truth telling to believe? Ah-hahahahahahahahaha!
guild chairman
I remember reading the article and thinking it had some good and bad, and the trying to link the kid's suicide to salvia was the bad, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm always skeptical of stories in which people do things, like work out or go swimming, while tripping balls on salvia. Once, when I first started using salvia, I smoked a couple or three bowls of raw leaf, and stumbled to my bed in the next room. I barely made it. I could barely walk at all. As soon as I lay down my ceiling became vaulted.
I've been frozen in place sitting on the edge of my bed after smoking salvia, unable to move, or remember that I ever was able to move.
In my experience, if the salvia isn't strong enough to cause me to lose contact with external reality as well as the ability to function physically, it isn't strong enough for me to really trip on. Thus, if I'm out there smashing skateboards through windows (as opposed to frozen on a park bench or lying on the ground), I'm not really tripping hard at all.
Well, that's just my experience with salvia and makes me highly skeptical of people's reports of movement, and also reports of orgasms while tripping in other dimensions. I wouldn't even remember I had a penis if I'd gone in far enough. I couldn't string the words together to form the thought.
People commit suicide for all sorts of reasons, and salvia, if anything, might make me afraid to do so. Rather, it might remind me that I'd better take advantage of this life to prepare for death, when one might find one's self in real serious shit with no cozy body or delusions to hide away in.
Oddly, his salvia report is not so different from what others find beneficial. After following some rather depressing politics, I found one salvia trip that showed me it was all about as meaningful as a board game (from anther exalted perspective) made me feel a whole lot better.
My GUESS is the kid wasn't that happy to begin with, that salvia didn't help him that much, and he probably had suicidal tendencies. That's my GUESS. His interpretation of what he learned from salvia apparently didn't brighten his outlook, and it may have contributed to him being depressed. OK.
One thing I wouldn't do is take salvia when I was depressed! Hey, let's hyperpower my depression and see just how miserable I can be in another dimension?!?! Don't trip when you aren't content with yourself.
I think the salvia may have contributed slightly to the kid's unhappiness, but was not responsible for it in the main. Meditating or reading Nietzche or Dostoevsky might have also depressed him. I actually knew a girl who injected herself with Windex after reading "Crime and Punishment". No joke.
Sure, she was a bit wacked emotionally. But, they still keep the dangerous Dostoevsky in the libraries of all places.
Just my humble opinions which Salvia would show me are complete mental constructions having little to do with reality more than just manipulation of the symbols of language.
Or was it Anna Karenina? Um, the book the girl injected herself with Windex after reading, or in the midst of reading. She was someone I knew well, and she had a blue splotch on her arm. When I asked how she got it she confessed to the Windex thing. She wasn't the type to make it up.
I guess people need grounding before reading Dostoevsky, seeing certain movies, listening to Black Sabbath or Pink Floyd (weren't those the groups that "caused" kids to kill themselves?), or doing any "entheogen". It's a tough world out there. At least I know I'm a bit frail sometimes and thus take precautions.
I said way too much.
Raskolnikov says "Nyet" Let them eat all the literature they can disolve. I don't know - It seem some are hardly ready to comprehend Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, The Matrix, The Dead - but who am I to judge if they are ready? If they ask, I usually say ok.
"Rather, it might remind me that I'd better take advantage of this life to prepare for death, when one might find one's self in real serious shit with no cozy body or delusions to hide away in. "
Reminds me of some discussions we've had regarding the Tibetain Book of the Dead and all that.
Yea, you said WAY too much! Lets try to keep these discussions as esoteric as possible please.
-tstt
PS. Welcome to the Salvia Plane.