Personally, I don't see the point and I think it would not have enough activity....
buuuuut....
The idea of hidden or passworded forums on 'touchy' subjects has been suggested. And in the spirit of keeping things fair, it deserves some open discussion.
Do you think there should be forums on this site which are hidden unless one wishes to participate in them. For example, i'm guessing its related to the MJ forum.
The final choice comes down to Andy and where he feel it can fall legally.
I don't want an anything goes forum, but somewhere to discuss certain topics W/o incrimination, of course, might not be so bad.
Something to consider: How would we go about deciding who gets the pw and who does not? Should evryone get it? Decided by post count/ frequency? Moderator decision on an individual basis?
Maybe not, I dunno.
Just call me flip the flopper.
I think it was more everyone will know what forums there are, you just have to ASK to actually have access. That way people aren't feeling they will be connected with those forums. Because a simple check shows they never had access.
I think thats the idea.. heh
I don't think invitation forums are a good idea. It makes people who aren't invited feel excluded from the discussion. Its not like topics of concern can't and aren't discussed in the open forums already without violating the no incrimination rule. We have pm's, which eliminate the need for a secret forum as well. the only exception would maybe a secret moderators forum to discuss issues that may come up like at the old spf.
i like the idea; it sounds like a win-win situation as long as Andy isn't compromised
TooStonedToType, its not really exclusion. Anyone can request access, they just have to request it before they can enter. Of course no self incrimination. But its just so that members who wish to be protected from the contents of particular forums can be protected. Ie, the marijuana forum again. Some countries is fine to openly discuss that topic, some its near deathly illegal, so to respect each individuals laws, people must Request access.
an idea.
I like the idea. Saying it is 'invite only' is actually just bad language we have adopted. It should be 'positive acceptance' to participate in such a forum. That`s how I handled the mushroom forum,
I wasn`t there.
But hypothetically now ,if you state an active desire to be in the MJ forum,that forum then be 'unlocked',on your computer.
I have a conservative streak,I do not even think the forum should be openly listed,but in a seperate heading(at the top,bottom etc.) be explained as a possability. A Little different then I was saying about myself previously,but it adds up to the same thing,and protects those who honestly feel` s such a forum sucks swampwater.
Or bongwater.
Whatever.
Though I am not hearing LW`s position(either I have not read enough or he has not posted,) but I still value his previous views,stripped of the personal judgements. He did what he could to protect SPF. What he would say now would not necc,. change my opinion,but one thing I do understand, that he acted, in the past at least, to protect a site he valued. We should do the same,whether he has taken himself out of it or not.
Personally,I saw a clique of sorts,but I have no rancer. That`s because therewere/are always people to talk to (Where`s Aliumiun,Know I gots his name wrong,but perfect example,knowledgable and loner. I liked and learned from him,quiet man)
So I`d prolly still vote forLW, if it`s the generally kind and evenminded LW of the old SPF. Sorry about trailing off subject a little, this was on my mind also.
Bad idea- and not necessary.
Such a forum could leat to people thinking that it is the "free for all" forum. Who would moderate that mess?
Also- if there ever was any legal fallout- the admin, all members of the hidden forum, and (in our ever enlightened newfound police state prettymuch every member of the greater spiritplants forum) would be screwed. I don't think that I'd be comfortable with sticking around if there was a forum that I didn't know what was going on in..... and I don't think I'd be comfortable joining that forum just to see if it was all cool either.
-tb
closed forum, sounds like fun!
____________
I am the BSOD!
Your first objection T.B. could be handled by some very pubically stated rules. And that`s pretty subjective,to say that it would be a mess, and I do think there was a mod ready for it.
But legal ramifications? Yes... I kind of agree,but again,no one thinks about that about the forest floor,do they? Or is it all about edible fungi,and I am missing the point. :?:
Tell you the truth,where I come from, a shroom bust is much nastier than a MJ bust, depending of course on amount.
But of course,it is a accepted entheogen, so legal ramifications were bravely tossed aside....
nitro (or anybody), what are the legal ramifications of password protected forums? They're not open to the public, to minors, to random wanderers.
Is there still a problem? Can i not speak my thoughts in such a forum?
What are we coming to? This is getting dark ages.
i was simply thinking of a place where i could relax and not censor my comments (similar to my living room). Is that a thing of the past?
Who would get the password? Those who ask. Right now, that's no problem, cause those of us who are here are familiars. But what happens after a few months, years, when strangers find the place. How will the admins know who to grant access? In my opinion, it'll be each case on its own merits.
Any admin here is a good judge.
so yeah, i'm in favour.
judih
I would like a forum that is for me only and is invisible to everyone, including me, and in which no one can post, including me. Please let me know when it exists (because I won't be able to see it.) Thanks!
-TM
I just peeped this thread for the first time. I suggest, from the bottom of my heart that you folks just set up the desired public forums then do your best to keep it non-incriminatory.
cj: I'm real sorry if you saw the old spf as cliquey. I usually root for the underdog and wanted everyone to feel welcome; especially peeps who felt they didn't fit in.
lw
I More appreciatte you are around....
You can`t always complain about tendencies or human nature. This Was what I was saying. It was secondary noise on my part.
Everything else I have said, to me ,has more importance now.In this present time.
Which in turn, strongly involves my first statement in this post.
A protected forum might give people the idea they can discuss secrets and possibly compromise themselves and others. OTOH, (on the other hand) is it really protected if anyone can register, make a few posts and get access? If that's the case then you might as well make it open. I'd say the only way it would be any good is if the standards to get in were fairly stiff and at the same time it was moderated with rules to discourage people from saying too much, ie, no self incrimination, keep it timeless and so on. That might be the place to discuss the not so legal cactus or shrub that someone you know is growing. Or a theoretical extraction or something.
What standards should there be to get in this protected forum? X number of months posting or x number of posts? Since we are new in this spot, people's rep from before or from other boards should count. Should it be 3 months and 100 posts or would that keep out too many people? Or is that too lenient? If we are going to have standards lets spell them out. I suggest the forum be secret by invitation only. Otherwise, you make people feel bad who aren't in and it gives other people an incentive to post a lot just to get in, leo for example though that may be a little paranoid. Not too many paranoid people get into trouble I've noticed.
Stoney
I have no specific objections to a non-incriminatory MJ forum (could be operated similalrly to the forest floor). I just don't think it should be "hidden" because that places the rest of the board members in a compromised position- Do we look, or not look? What's really going on in there? Are they incrimination themselves (and potentially us?) If not, then why does it need to be hidden? And- as has been brought up- since anyone can get to it- is it really "hidden"? It's just "spiritplants MJ forum" at that point- with another layer of passwords.
Thing is- right now- if someone want's some tech on growing MJ- they can cruise to the green plant forum (whatever it's name is today) and ask about hydroponic tech WITHOUT saying that they want to grow MJ. If they do it in a "hidden" MJ forum..... then the cat is completely out of the bag- there is "just cause" (as if they even need just cause anymore) and they can move in for the bust.
So..... I can't see why it's necessary- and it is potentially a really bad idea.
-tb
Oh- and troutmask-
I am the moderator of your dream forum, and I have determined that you are banned until further notice. :P
One thing to keep in mind, if it is open to the public, the googlebot is going to archive it.
true. i'd forgotten about that, winder.
if i do a google on myself, i come up with my latest posts all over the place.
the spidery magnetic antennae of google are omniscient.
Keep in mind its not so much as protecting those forums from the world, but to give other members a legal defence to lean on. Not that one would ever be needed, it can help to calm paranoia. Server files would clearly show you had NO access to that area. Don't you need Mens Rea and Actus Reus to commit any crime? If you can show you had no access, it would be impossible for you to be found to have actus reus, let alone mens rea.
From wikipedia:
QuoteMens rea is a criminal law concept which focuses on the mental state of the accused and requires proof of a positive state of mind such as intent, recklessness, or willful blindness. In jurisdictions with due process, some level of mens rea is always a required element of the crime with which the defendant is charged, and must be proven by the prosecution. Most civil law claims also incorporate some level of mens rea as a required element, with the exception of strict liability torts.
Mens rea comes from the Latin phrase; Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, translated An act does not make a man guilty unless his mind be also guilty. Mens rea roughly translates to guilty mind.
--
Actus reus is the action (or inaction, in the case of criminal negligence and similar crimes which are sometimes called acts of omission) which, in combination with the mens rea ("guilty mind"), produces criminal liability in common law based criminal law jurisdictions such as the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. According to criminal jurisprudence, there must be a concurrence of both actus reus and mens rea for a crime to have been committed.
The phrase derives from a quotation from Edward Coke actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea,1 which roughly translated means "an act does not make someone a criminal unless (their) mind is guilty."
Thinbuddah said:
QuoteI just don't think it should be "hidden" because that places the rest of the board members in a compromised position- Do we look, or not look? What's really going on in there? Are they incrimination themselves (and potentially us?) If not, then why does it need to be hidden? And- as has been brought up- since anyone can get to it- is it really "hidden"? It's just "spiritplants MJ forum" at that point- with another layer of passwords.
It would be visible so people know about it, but permissions can be set to only allow access to those who want it. There will be responsible mods needed before any forum would even be concidered. Someone would have too keep up the site wide policies within the forum. There is no worry about self incrimination, thats why we have mods to fix any if it should appear.
I betcha It could be done,and it done correctly.
I myself 'personally' believe cannibis to be an entheogen..
The final qustion, is why have it. Because it is an entheogen? Guess my point is,what are 'you'.. or someone, gonna do with it. Latsa factual sites out there,is one more really needed?
One thing I would suggest,In one aspect,you do go all the way. Support NORML. I`ll contribute,and not even ask for 'invitation. Marihauna really should in some form, be legal. Shrooms, too intense for the general mind. Not on the table till society reinvents itself.
Unless our country(sorry folks,how parochial) that is, the US, does regard a study of Hitlers germany as a good thing, I feel the light is at the end of a very distant tunnel. say,15 to 30 years, excluding Texas,and I really do believe it.
The first hints are now,the water is leaking thru, Sensible people,even republicans,realize it`s jus plain only going to go on forever. My nieghbor accross the street has a 'card'. A cirtain part of the population is adamably going to smoke marihuana well,with/without alcohol. (some ill at ease felt there,one of the counter arguements) Thing is, It`s what already happens,and you can`t bust a few or so more million people over it,though still,populace speaking, still much a minority.
Let my people go... We are for the most part, good people,and partake of something that by itself does not intoxicate ,or drive one to beat his her husband or wife. Teenagers and marihauna,true problem,one has to learn to be straight till the witching hour,when the books have been covered and it`s time to listion to a few tunes. When I was young and in University,I learned that very well.
Peace.
IMO, the only thing that prevents MJ from being considered an entheogen or whatever is it's availability and use by such a large number and wide variety of "non-shamans." If it had just recently been discovered by a few brave psychonauts, MJ would be considered a spirit plant about as much as any other.
Edit: I don't mean to support a MJ forum. I'm against it mostly because there CAN be too much information. There are plenty of MJ sites that discuss every possible MJ topic in great detail. IMO, there is no need to start a new "beginner" MJ forum when so many "pro" forums already exist.
-TM
Everyone has some excellent points. I like the fact a password forum might keep out the googlebot. I'm still leaning towards no. At the old spf sure there were some stories in which mj played a role in some true entheogenic experiences. But they were scattered and posted in other forums as they generally also included other things like music or poetry. If nothing else, they could go in the mountain. I kind of liked that way. It wasn't like mj was totally outlawed, you just needed to put it into some context. I'm afraid a new forum would discourage this.
I'll go smoke a joint and think about the matter more.
I'm amazed that the viability of da kina as an entheogen has been viewed by many here as the crux of this matter. Shucks, I guess I should be happy to hear that.
Regardless, we must realize that there has been a sizable faction of peeps who would like to see the evolution of this site past the old norms.
It wasn't always an easy/fun task to enforce that fundamantal rule. But we did it. I helped enforce it for a long time before I saw the value in the action, but that changed over the years for me. Now, I'm tired of enforing that rule in someone else's house. And I'm not interested in revisiting the topic with each new influx of community members or changing of the guard.
So I've come to the conclusion that it is finally time for me and a few others of like mind to put up a little safe haven cyber-shack for those so inclined.
lw
LW, that is certainly a viable idea. Not that you are going anywhere, you are hooked on spf and it's too late to kick the habit. But it would be nice to have another place to go to discuss things banned by some sites. Gooey had her own forum and it didn't threaten spf, I don't see why you couldn't have your own place too.
If we have a protected forum it would make no sense to limit it to mj. That would be one of the things allowed to be discussed among others. The questions we need to decide are is it going to be visible and what are the standards for getting in? If it's visible then people can request admission but then they will be unhappy if turned down. If we have standards then they can see they just didn't meet the standards and it's not like someone didn't like them personally. Having impersonal standards for admission is an important factor that no one is discussing. If there are no standards and anyone can get it, what's the point?
What should be the standards for admission?
It seems to me regardless of topic, that the forums are to serve as an archive of thoughts, information, and experiences. There are benefits and liabilities to having such an archive.
If something is better off not being archived, perhaps people can post an appointment to be in chat for a discussion that won't be archived.
Am I correct in the assumption that chat is not archivable?
Or at least not so easily archived, whereas by design the forums are searchable.
If so, a potentially useful design would be to have an forum that is either by invitation or that is password protected for "Chat Appointments" where people could set up a time for discussion in advance. People gather, discussion held, no archive, and almost all needs that can be met are met.
One drawback I see is the competition for time for specific topics, so that alone could be the downfall of the idea. The moderator may become a scheduler, a responsibility that does not sound appealing.
My apologies if this is all a really bad brain fart, I don't have the technical know-how of what is possible, but it seems that solutions may exist and it is more a matter of implementation.
*the protected forums do not require the marijuana forum, that was an example*
"Chat Appointments"?
Winder, i'm guessing you dont use the chat that often but most people in the chat.. are always in the chat.. People could make Appointments to meet but thats not really the point of IRC or the chat. Its like having a forum, where people are posting like crazy, but its easier to keep up with.
IRC is just more useful to carry on a conversation. You aren't waiting hours or days to get a reply that didn't address the topic. hehe.
There are always people on the chat to talk to.
"Am I correct in the assumption that chat is not archivable?"
There are 'logs' people can keep, but there isnt a index like Google that you can search for logs.
"If we have a protected forum it would make no sense to limit it to mj. That would be one of the things allowed to be discussed among others. The questions we need to decide are is it going to be visible and what are the standards for getting in? If it's visible then people can request admission but then they will be unhappy if turned down."
Well, the MJ thing was just an example. To start I would say just a general discussion forum could be created to start.
"The Underground" - Where we hide from prying eyes.
... something along those lines. hehe.
"If there are no standards and anyone can get it, what's the point? What should be the standards for admission?"
Did you miss my post on the legal aspect of how Opt-In forums could help?
"its not so much as protecting those forums from the world, but to give other members a legal defence to lean on. Not that one would ever be needed, it can help to calm paranoia. Server files would clearly show you had NO access to that area. Don't you need Mens Rea and Actus Reus to commit any crime? If you can show you had no access, it would be impossible for you to be found to have actus reus, let alone mens rea."
Plus, You can require reading of an additional disclamer which makes it even clearer that no law enforcement persons are allowed access without making their presence known first.. again, not really needed, but an option for added security if you are really that scared about nothing.
"IMO, there is no need to start a new "beginner" MJ forum when so many "pro" forums already exist. "
IMO, I don't want to have to tell people here to start visiting overgrow com and view a thread so they can see my post on marijuana. Why not just post the thread in the protected forum. No googlebot to index it as part of the site and we know who has access to view it. Heck, you can see who has viewed it. Else I just have to not post, or make a post with a link. But with the current SPF rules, can i even post the overgrow link?
Plus, SPF has my friends, not overgrow. I want to show/say things to YOU HERE, not someone else i dont know elsewhere.
In all fairness, you should include womens rea also :shock: