The disappearance of eddy and the original spiritplants affected everyone involved in the making of that community. For whatever affection people feel for the man, and concern about him somewhere out there unaccounted for, nonetheless the most direct affect on all of us from his disappearance was the disappearance as well of our online community, with not a word of explanation. I hope he is OK, but I also hold him accountable for not a single known attempt to contact anyone about what happened. Were he to return today, full of stories about crazy things that kept him offline, with SPF new and shining and fully restored, I would nonetheless be very unlikely to return to any site he would administer. I would find all of my hundreds of posts, irreplaceable and apparently now lost, download them, and leave. That is what I would do. I do not presume what others would do; some might follow suit; some might decide to resume being part of a site he runs with a name and associations they love. But the choice may never come. The more time passes, the less likely it will.
This site was created out of the feelings of upset, anger, panic, concern that many felt when SPF disappeared. I came up with the idea of a temporary site to get people back in touch, and I proposed it to Irish Andy who with his Yage server could make it happen. He did, within a day of me talking to him. Andy is a very generous man, and I personally insist that the community here always keep that in mind. He has asked for no money, and I think would prefer to keep it that way. He is hosting SPF and SPF Radio out of a love for community, for those who value enthogens, those who love art and wish to perpetuate it online for all to experience.
So...I was the source of this site, and by default suddenly became a major player. Suddenly I had admin powers, and had to decide what to do with them. As Eddy's reappearance by the timetable he gave to Cassie did not occur, I came to believe it was not going to happen. I decided to put up more forums, turn the tent city feel here into something more ongoing. The feelings that came across to me at the time was one of enthusiasm, even a sense of liberation in things happening again. The old SPF had bogged down, was run by nobody in a day to day sense. Many of the old people in charge--Glider, Atreyu, Kemp--had come and gone. Eddy rarely posted, and was in my opinion as unresponsive to change as was possible. It took a very long time to get a chat link at the forums, and he completely ignored the SPF Radio project, and frankly that created in me a lot of resentment. Chat and Radio are as much a valid part of this community as the forums. I see the way some mention them here with scoffing and it makes me very frustrated. I hold Eddy responsible for some but not all of this chasm that exists.
The forums that have gone up have been nearly all my doing. I read posts, people want forums, old ones, new ones. Under the old management, nothing would have gotten done. I put them up, and I posted news of them being up. Yesterday morning I had some free time so I read a whole lot of posts, and put up all the forums people clamored for. People wanted mods back, so with cassie's help I restored or added as many as I could. Out of the 20 forums up, most are simply restorations of the old SPF forums.
Nitroburn told me he had long wanted an MJ forum, and I told him there could be one if he agreed to moderate it. Now that seems to have caused all sorts of dissension and finger-pointing, so much so that SPF has lost one of its three admins--those being me, andy, and nitro--and frankly it could afford to lose me a lot more easily. This place needs Nitro and Andy to do the techie work to make this site all it could be, all people demand and wish for. I'm very sorry he dropped his admin privileges; I hope he considers taking them back.
I became an admin because Andy does not have the time to read all the posts and make all the day to day adjustments, especially to a site that is still shaking down its look and feel and contents. Andy will do what we wish to make things better, but he is not exclusively devoted to SPF, that was never part of the deal.
I considered resigning my admin too, getting very annoyed at the nasty things said about chat, as though it's some secret cove where only the privileged go. What I see is Cassie for years now trying to get people to see that chat/forums/radio are all part of the same place. Chat languishes at time for lack of new blood, and the radio project has long been in some kind of ignored ghetto even when efforts have resulted in its being 24/7 and available for dial up and high speed listeners. These things matter.
I've posted very little at the Library. I had frankly stopped posting much at the old Library. But for different reasons. With the old site, I was tired of the flamers and the indifference to trying to unite the whole of SPF. With the new site I have spent most of my limited time here reading people's posts on what they want to see and have, and doing it, or conveying it to Andy or Nitro to do.
People are calling for a board of governors; others are threatening to leave. A few are saying wow this place is cool. So I guess I have a choice as to who to listen to. The MJ forum deleted is a loss. It says to me that people want something new, but not really, something exciting, but not too much, and nothing in the least controversial. To my mind, this site is controversial by its very nature, and whether or not it chooses to be activist and stand up for the rights of live creatures to live by their own lights or as scared quiet drones, it nonetheless stands for the kind of freedom some will kill for, some will die for, and some will get locked up for wanting or espousing.
I don't know, frankly, if community consensus is possible. And I don't know what an SPF Refuge would look like that everyone was OK with. I do know that all the efforts made this month have been to keep something going that matters, to renew its vigor and restore a sense of excitement to it. I came to see Eddy's disappearance as a weird kind of opportunity; I see it that way still even as I sincerely hope he is OK.
One thing I am sure of: I do not regret any action I have taken or supported at this site. I bow to no one here, nor do I expect anyone to bow to me. I've enjoyed helping to build up this site a lot more than I was enjoying the old SPF. I would like to see something good come of all of this tumult. Only through the efforts of a lot of people with open minds and willing hearts can this come to pass. Since I gain nothing from continuing to hold admin privileges here, I hope it is understood I do so out of affection and fraternity for those I have known on this site. If the general need is decided to be a group of admins, I will participate if asked, or bow out if this is so desired.
My final thought is this: whoever is given the powers to run this site, to change things, will have to at times make decisions on the fly, and will have the obligations to communicate these decisions to the community as a whole, to stand by them in the face of inevitable criticisms, and to alter them if a majority of voices insist.
I await the time now or soon or whenever when the recriminations stop flying, and the work of community-building is seriously engaged.
--Raymond
I'm not involved in the community very much anymore, but I have been around long enough to put my 2 cents in. You make a lot of really good points cenacle, and I see how much you have busted your ass for this place. I agree completely with everything especially this statement: " It says to me that people want something new, but not really, something exciting, but not too much, and nothing in the least controversial. " Out of all the entheogen sites out there, this one seemed the 'classiest' to me. Maybe because I am partisan, but SPF is the 'black tie' entheogen site, and for all those years we upheld those standards mainly by keeping it a place for and about plants, not the feelings and sensations the plants give us. There, I hope I made sense. I love this place, and even tho I have changed a lot, I still read the forums every day.
I utterly and absolutely agree with everything you've said. And thank you, Ray for all that you have done for ALL of us.
I would have loved to see a cannabis forum, but it seems the community does not want one, I guess because they think it will decrease the overall respectability of the place. I wholeheartedly disagree with that.
As far as legality goes... well, we wouldn't allow self incrimination, and we never have. Besides that mj is not the only illegal plant being discussed here, just as at the old spf: Psilocybes, lophophora and ayahausca have all been discussed at legnth. I don't remember anyone threatening to leave or getting upset then, why now?
To say the least I am dissapointed at the tone of that conversation, and am quite shocked to see people taking the stances they are, some of which have been rude and to a degree, personal. Cannabis forum or not I will stay. For me it's just as much about the people as it is about the plants.
I sincerely hope that Nitro will reconsider his admin status, he has always been a great help to us and a good guy to boot.
oh yeah, cenny already sweet talked me :P
Personally, I think the MJ forum would cause more trouble than value it could add.
It wouldn't make me leave though; I could tolerate its presence.
I wouldn't add value for me, since I wouldn't have anything much to add to it. I simply fear that in the end there would be regrets in having added it. ( I wish I could benefit from it, but circumstance and geography dictates not.)
What is the motivation for having it?
Is there a lack of knowledge and information and connections for people?
I can understand salvia and cactus and vine growers growers wanting an on-line forum when probably 1% of the nation or less knows what any of these particular plants looks like or how to care for them properly. I don't see a similar need with MJ when a given MJ user probably has a relatively large circle of friends with which they partake. Myself, I share my knowledge with nearly no one at all off-board. Conversations regarding my interests have been limited to 3 family members and one friend in very limited detail, so the board serves a purpose to me. I don't see MJ having a similar purpose needing to be fulfilled for me or others.
My humble 2 cents.
As for ayahausca brews, hasn't a court decision recently ruled they are not illegal for bona fide religious ceremonial use, even in the US?
Not trying to pick a fight, though...
QuoteAs for ayahausca brews, hasn't a court decision recently ruled they are not illegal for bona fide religious ceremonial use, even in the US?
Yes, they did, but I beleive you must be a member of one specific bona fide religion, like with peyote. MJ doesn't enjoy the same status, unfortunately, although I'm sure some Rastafarians would argue that it should. If it did, would that make it a more acceptable topic of discussion? Even if the discussion isn't use, but information focused?
The motivation would be that is another entheogen and worthy of discussing.
I get the feeling that it something people just don't want to "talk" about , if that's the way they feel, I can understand, since there are already many boards devoted to it.
Whatever desicions we as a community or our admin team makes I would accept without complaint. I was more interetsed in pointing out that it does not need to be an issue which divides us.
As I said earlier,And has been stated above,mushrooms are illegal too, for that,and the personal reasonI do not like them,I simply did not visit the forum. No offense to those who regard them truly as sacred.
The problem with a cannibis forum ,is the history of baggage it carries.I think it is an entheogen, but others,whether they like it or not,just cosider it dope. That is, Adrug that is nothing but that is somthin` to git high on.
What bothers me is this this,we have already fooled ourseves(some of us fools ..... Ahem) about poppies. Like Cassie said for another situation,lets not be too hasty(ent voice)
And Cenacle,you,and the others involved,in getting a site back up....thankyou
I think a MJ forum is ultimatly a mistake. But that would be my problem,guess I simply would not participate there.
One quick comment about chat,just posting takes up time for me,got`s stuff to do. So,minor player or whatever,I`ve no idea/say about new ideas, as a simple member.
One thing I do know,other sites have a mod/Amin forum,where ideas are generated and posted to the populace. General members are excluded. I feel this is a bad idea also.They should be able to listion in, but not paticipate. Well,debatable,some issues do get pretty sensitive,like over a jerk member, but there should be more inclusion. Mabe in a sense that is what many of you thought,chat being your thing anyways.
Anyway,It Doesn`t have to be done in chat.
Okay,I`m all posted out,and a little bummed that there has been some hurt feelings,..should not be that way. Lucky to be here.
add yes, indeed, thanks to Cenacle, Andy, Cassie, and Nitroburn (and probably some others I missed) for getting things moving rapidly.
A site built out of love and generousity can only be a good site.
Let's keep love and generousity on our plate and suspicion out in the cold.
A refuge is a place for embrace and acceptance. We reserve the right to each find a little spot in the shelter that we can call home. Those who don't like the incense may choose to stay outside, or to invite a few others to the back tent. That is cool.
Refuge is refuge.
We're all linked by our care to be community.
(this is perhaps getting into hallmark card territory - please put another log on the fire and i'll come to my senses)
my online time is also fairly limited, but when i come here, i love to see that people are sharing in the spirit of seeking. If there's underlying trust, we can all benefit from what's being said. Mishaps and misinterpretations will happen - it's the way communication is forged. The desire to work to make a better community can override momentary fears.
Let's keep straight talk on the list of principles here.
judih
(p.s. some of my best poetry happens neither in chat nor on the forums but in the middle of an open field. What can you do? When an idea hits, it hits, and there's no faking it. Sometimes, it'll be in a p.m., sometimes on chat and other times on a forum. Doesn't mean the idea is invalid)
Hopefully no bad feelings at any point here. That would keep an old timer around.
Missed you Cenny, Nitro, and Cass.
this is a good place filled with many bright minds, more open than most. i have learned much here and spent many an hour perusing. thanks to all who have made this possible. i celebrate you.
fuck this place
:P Me toooooo! It's a homely little outpost on the net.
I've always been at least a little intrigued in the matters of forum administration, especially the side dealing with how the administration interacts with the users of the site. My interest, however, can be most similarly described as the interest one shows whilst driving (slowly) past the scene of a particularly messy automobile accident. There are various aspects to the "SPF" debacle that I see mirrored in other situations, and I think that in the best interest of this site I must divulge my observations - even at the risk of offense.
The essence of what I have learned about groups of people interacting is that once any one individual attempts to direct the energy of the group towards themselves, the project is almost certainly doomed. The practical side of that is that when an individual "brings into the group consciousness" an intense awareness of that individual, energy is directed away from the non-person goal and towards that person.
Example 1:
Three people work towards a goal, one person "takes offense" at a suggestion or topic brought up by one of the other ones and either forces the other two to capitulate or the project's progress is halted immediately.
Example 2:
Three people work towards a goal, one person "commandeers" the project and pushes it further into a direction he or she prefers, ignoring the input of the other two. The other two may become resentful and feel that their input is not being valued, and one or more may attempt to wrest control of the project back, which results in the same situation, or they cease to offer their (apparently useless) input.
The first example is one of illogical requirements coming into conflict with the progress of the project. Now, don't get me wrong, illogical requirements are important to individuals and the work of a group. While praise may not be among the check-list of things required to complete a particular goal, failure to do so can often result in the delay of the aquisition of that goal, or the complete failure to do the same.
The second example is one where an individual's desire for dominance comes into conflict with the real progress of the group. If you ask any one individual in that scenario, he or she will tell you that his or her idea is the best way to progress and will identify strongly with the situation. Often people are incapable of stepping back and saying, "Hey, this arguing isn't getting us anywhere, all we're doing is restating our arguments to ourselves more loudly than the previous person."
Honestly, I think a lot of the problems that occurred at spiritplants were more fuss than substance. People somehow imagined foot-stepping-on in a place where there are no feet. If conflict can be observed by those involved, it can cease to be the driving factor behind posts and topics of real worth can be chosen. The more energy you give to a conflict, the larger it grows and the more dangerous it appears to be, while in truth it is no more substantial than the multitudinous puffs of wasted air it is created with.
Go! Be fruitful and multiply!
I hope this comunity is happy with the current arrangements. The collective is what matters to me; without it life is poorer. Without all of us there would be no 'us'.
So, the members of this community are its strength and they vote with their feet.
There is always the possibility for a site's owner to control the atmosphere and to this end andy has appointed 3 administrators: me, nitro and cenacle.
We 4 get on extremely well, as you will have noticed in the chatroom, and we share a common goal of wanting the site to thrive, to find its niche again.
We have tried to re-establish spiritplants as close to its form as possible, because it did, indeed, have a niche in the entheogenic community.
I am interested in your observations, mok. I have always found your opinion worth hearing.
Geez, you go away for awhile and everybody runs off without leaving a forwarding address! That's OK, I can take a hint.
OK, no, I can't...
Nice to see you all again!
--GG
Hey, good to see you, groovygardner. Mok, you said a mouthful!
GG is back! This place is actually like SPF again! :D
Hey Groove... Yep, I hear ya about the no forwarding.. Matter 'o fact, I was just thinking last night about how I have absolutely no idea how I found this new place... No one told me a thing.. Must be Karma eh 8) -- senorsal
Karma or something! Just got "the vibe" again and felt the need to return. Must be I'm about to experiment with some Silene capensis and needed to reconnect with the tribe - just in case.
Great to see so many old timers! Not even going to ask what happened, seems like there have been many tremors in the force...
--GG
QuoteMust be I'm about to experiment with some Silene capensis and needed to reconnect with the tribe - just in case
Whoa! You're the first Westerner I've heard of that has/will experiment with this one--- please keep us updated. If you're of a mind to write it up, I'd love to hear about any experimentation! :D
Wow, welcome back GG! Good to see ya still kicking around.
Hi!
I'm very proud to be a member of the new spiritplants.
I am a member of so many entheo forums, that I can't seem to find a lot of time for any site. But if this site was not around, it would be a great loss.
I appreciate all the hard work.
Cenacle, man, I SO know what you are dealing with. When I first found DMTWORLD (along with narsimdiva and delysid) the site was all but abondoned adn unmoderated. We took it on ourselves to stop the illegal activity that had begun to crop up; eventually wolfy found his way home, and we fixed everything :D
That was along time ago, but I wanted to mention so sympathy. You will NEVER make everyone happy, so don't make that a goal. Think in a long term communtiy building manner; that's my advice.
meme,
thank you for the kind words...the new SPF is in some ways even more of a grass roots community effort than the old one was...i am in no way singly responsible for its development...the other admins--cassie, andy, and nitro--each contribute invaluably to making it more and better...and the people who come here are good folks, deep, funny, wise and as free as possible however they can do this...it's good to be part of this community building effort, and to care, and to so often see how it is worth it...i'm glad you're here too :)
This thread was started by you, and I was responding to that in my thanks.
When a website goes down, adn the community remains, that is magic.
This has happened to the hive recently, you know? Those who are about amphetamines are now at wetdreams, and the bulk of the true chemists are now at synthetikal.com
This sort of thing is important; for a movement to last it must be self-organized.
Spiritplants Decentralized!!
Speaking of synthetikal/wetdreams... I agree that wet seems to follow the 'easy' chem road of crankster dreams.. On the other hand, sythetikal is, as you say more for the 'true chem hack... Jeez senor would dearly love to see the birthing of a site that takes the new chem hack in hand and genly guide him or her into the Shulgin realms of acqusition....... senorsal
Quote from: "winder"add yes, indeed, thanks to Cenacle, Andy, Cassie, and Nitroburn (and probably some others I missed) for getting things moving rapidly.
In the middle of my life I found myelf in a dark wood: I can't tell you how devastated I was to stagger out of that dark wood and find no spiritplants.
"Oh no, how will I find lw, Cassie, Andy, Winder, flatalbert, amonymous, gg, Cenacle, Nitro, Senor, Judih, TSTT...everybody!"
I desperately googled spiritplants and found my way.
So now I've been practicing forum archaeology, drilling down through the strata to see what happened.
My profound thanks to Cenacle, Andy, Cassie, and Nitroburn, and all others who helped this resurrection along.
Seems appropriate, though: What better suits an entheogen site than a rebirth?
Edited for a coupla hysterical typos :)
I enjoy the site, and greatly appreciate all the work love and dedication that has gone into it.
out of all the forums i was a member of, this was always my primary site, the others being secondary, i liked the 'black-tie' nature of the site, more knowledge bases than who took what...
personally, i agree that there is ample information on cannabis on the net, but oftenn it can be more rewarding discussing the theory behinde the said information, but it would have to be policed to keep it about the intellectual advancement and theory rather than a place to brag a members excapadedes..sharing wisdom is far better than bragging imho...
however, even w/ a lack of mj forum, the info can be discussed via other forums, but then so could salvia
i am neither for nor against it, i would be an observer
thnaks again to everyone who posts for making the community a community
vb~
I'm just really glad that we are all together again. An IP address isn't what makes a web page become a home. WE are what makes a webpage become a home. So, we're here instead of at the old spf...sure history and text is lost, which sucks, but hey...here we are still...and that's the best part in my opinion.
-JokerGrin (steve)
Hey joker :: Welcome back. Glad you find the tribe... Yep, community has nothing to do with technology.. It's We da peeps.........