This is the current list I have come up with of items forbidden to trade in the trade forum for those who reside in the U.S.. I'm willing to debate them and come up with a consensus from the board on which direction we want to go here and if this is an acceptable list or what we need to modify to make it so.
(note, this list specifically relates to people who reside in the U.S. only. Other country laws may be different and thus not subject to this specific list.)
Dried trichocereus cactus flesh (live specimens are acceptable.)
lophophora specimens/seeds (except in the few states where legal)
Etroxylum coca specimens/foilage/seeds
Catha Edulis i.e. Khat Foilage/seeds/plants
Tabernanthe iboga, foilage/extracts/seeds/specimens
Research chemicals, i.e. 2c-i, DMT, exc.
Psilosybian mushrooms, (with exception to the trade of prints for I.D. purposes in states where legal.)
Opiates/poppy pods- (poppy seeds are acceptable trade items.)
dragibus, dragibine or any of it's constituents are strictly forbidden to trade.
Cannabis/seeds/foilage
lsd, dxm, ghb, mdma, meth...... (I assume these and others like them are obvious nono's.)
seems like a reasonable list, and good to get the rules more specific like this...and to have the law forum to discuss these items from a different perspective...
once agreed on, this list should be post in the trade forum in an announcement...
Research chems, I agree on because it's such a gray area. No one can know if a given reseach chem is legal or not. The DEA won't even tell you. If there is a question about the legality of something and there have been arrests, then yes, lets ban it. If there is no question something is legal, then it should be allowed. The dried cactus flesh is a gray area but I'll go along with what the others think about that.
The list is reasonable as far as it pertains to illegal items. That is the guiding prinicpal, far as most people are concerned. What I don't like is the attempt to ban legal items. You want to allow poppy seeds and spore prints but not khat seeds or iboga seeds. I can see no logic behind that.
Avery, what is your line of reasoning on wanting to ban khat and iboga seeds? They are perfectly legal, just like poppy seeds. I see no difference between the two groups. All legal seeds should be allowed.
"dragibus, dragibine or any of it's constituents are strictly forbidden to trade."
u-suck
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The rest of the list sounds reasonable. As for the lophophora that seems like a grey area, but I don't know the law that much on this. We had a discussion once on this in relation to Colorado and it seems it is legal here if used for a "bona-fide" religious purpose, but may still be against federal law. Who knows? I know we know it is silly to have to try to comply with such unconstitutional laws that limit peoples right to practice their "bona-fide" held spiritual beliefs, but we do.
To even own Lophophora in the few places where legal, one must be licensed, yes? So trading there isn't acceptable, as I thought the licensed peyoteros must keep records, records that could implicate someone who'd rather not be implicated if a trade transaction is logged (why anyone licensed would trade peyote "on-the books" seems odd to me).
Peyote seeds are specifically listed as being illegal. Khat seeds and iboga seeds are not. Avery, I'm still waiting for some reason why those two should be banned. We seem to be in agreement on the other things.
It seems to me, both Ibogaine and its source plant Tabernanthe iboga are Schedule I in the United States....... does that not include the seeds? I don't know. I'd say it's a judgement call more than anything. Are a plants seeds part of the plant?
As far as khat goes, I'd imagine your right, the law is just ambiguous enough that I'm sure we could allow the trading of khat seeds no problem. Hell, if yah want to get technical, the Khat plant isn't speciffically scheduled either, I suppose we could allow that to be traded too. But, who wants to take that risk aye?
Oh and as to your previous question about poppy pods and spore prints. I guess the reasoning behind those are equally sketchy. Poppy seeds are sold in stores, as far as I know are perfectly legal to grow, just not harvesting of the pods. As for spore prints, I think only psilocybian or carriers of psilocybian are illegal, only in specific states are spores for psilly mushrooms specifically outlawed, like Idaho and California. No court can touch you in states where it is illegal except if they can prove intent to produce a controlled substance. I.E., that P.F. guy comes to mind.
Actually, the khat plant is scheduled along with
peyote
pot
e coca
t iboga
khat
but whereas it states all parts of the peyote (l williamsii) are illegal including the seeds it does not say that about khat, e coca or t. iboga. It does state that pot seeds are illegal. This is the standard that USA vendors stick with and I've never heard of anybody being busted for anything not mentioned like seeds. I can find the exact wording if anyone is interested. That's why you can buy khat seeds legally in this country and I can name several places that sell them. They do not sell pot seeds or peyote seeds because they are named in the scheduling and are illegal.
Then we have e. novogranatense which is not illegal neither are the seeds. So we have a number of seeds that could be grown into plants that would get the person in trouble if they grew them. However the seeds are legal. Why should we take on the role of cops and ban something because of how people might use it? Poppies make morphine and other drugs.
Why don't we just say illegal items are banned and leave it at that?
Quote from: StonehengeActually, the khat plant is scheduled Quotemmmm, you sure about that? Erowid sais differently.
as far as coca plant cultivars go, thats a whole can of worms. Best just to not allow that at all IMO.
And why not just say illegal items are banned and leave it at that you ask? Because the laws are subject to interpretation. We as a group can't even decide what is legal and what is not.
We can pick and choose what juridiction we are in around here but USA law on these matters is the most restrictive. If something is allowed in USA it's probably allowed everywhere, with a few exceptions. There is no reason to be more restrictive than US law. I'll get you a copy of the statute tomorrow. I'm too tired tonight. It lists the things that are not allowed.
It seems that khat is banned due to the presence of two compounds in it that are scheduled. The foliage is therefore illegal since it contains the banned compounds but the seeds do not. Here are 2 places in the USA that openly sell khat seeds
http://www.salviaspace.com/cathaedulis.html (http://www.salviaspace.com/cathaedulis.html)
http://www.bouncingbearbotanicals.com/khat-p-89.html (http://www.bouncingbearbotanicals.com/khat-p-89.html)
Both those vendors are well known and have been around a long time. Why would we ban something that is allowed under USA law? Are we more conservative than George Bush and his administration?
Quote::It seems that khat is banned due to the presence of two compounds in it that are scheduled. The foliage is therefore illegal since it contains the banned compounds but the seeds do not. ----
You could hold that argument to a whole host of plants that we openly allow the trading of. Take woodrose seeds for instance or various DMT containing plants/plant foilage that are regularly traded. Why not ban these by your reasoning? Again, the Khat plant is not illegal, only the compounds in it are. The only difference is where you specifically want to draw the line.
Quote::Here are 2 places in the USA that openly sell khat seeds--
And the whole 'well, these vendors sell em every day argument' is no good either. Yah remember JLF? Or Psilocybian fanaticus? Or operation pipe dream? All those guys thought they were legit too. Hell, I could show you two or three places right here in the states that sell coca leaves and seeds too. Does that make it right in the eyes of the law?
On the same token, I'd be willing to allow Khat seeds if thats the general consensus, but your reasoning does not strike me as exacting.
Well, Avery, your argument on poppy seeds was that they were sold openly. I showed that khat seeds are sold openly too.
QuoteYou could hold that argument to a whole host of plants that we openly allow the trading of. Take woodrose seeds for instance or various DMT containing plants/plant foilage that are regularly traded. Why not ban these by your reasoning?
I'm not the one trying to get legal plants or seeds banned on SPF. By your own statement, those type of seeds fall in the same catagory as khat as do poppy seeds and many others. The only seeds I'm aware of that are specifically banned in USA are pot seeds and peyote seeds. Here is another US vendor that sells khat seeds
http://store.yahoo.com/basementshaman/catedkhatsee.html (http://store.yahoo.com/basementshaman/catedkhatsee.html)
Quote:Well, Avery, your argument on poppy seeds was that they were sold openly.--
No, my argument was that that was a sketchy argument (you brought that up.) There are huge differences between poppy seeds and khat seeds. For one, poppy seeds are culinary items, common ornamentals and are indigenous to the area.
Sticky business interpreting the law aint it? Very subjective. Am glad we have an entheogen law forum for this stuff.
So, are Khat seeds the only problem you have with the proposed list Stonehenge? Anything else yah want to hash out? I think you are winning me over to your side on Khat seeds. Rather harmless (even though I still disagree with your reasoning.) At least, I'd hate to see the same reasoning applied to other plants.
(Avery sits back and carves a voodoo doll out of cactus chunks while munching on a bag of poppy seeds......)
That sounds very reasonable of you, Avery. I just can't see criminalizing stuff that you can buy over the counter and that is not illegal. Sorry if that sounds like a sketchy argument.
What happened to the post by neonaut?
Yeah where is my post? :?
http://www.spiritplants.org/phpbb/viewt ... =8647#8647 (http://www.spiritplants.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=8647#8647)
....... the site was down for a while, some posts were lost I think..... ones made right before it went down.