Wouldn't it be nice to not need any?? :wink:
However, it does seem that there are some grey areas atm. I would like to address 2 issues here.
1. Posts about illegal activities
There seems to be no disagreement about the 'rule' that no one incriminate themselves or others. Its a simple matter to police this as i have described in my other posts. There is no way we can just go by american law here ... and my suggestion is for moderators to do as i have done in the past if they suspect a post of being incriminatory ... just ask the post-maker if the activity is legal where they are and if so - all good, if not- edit or remove.
There will always be some posts that slip between the cracks, just like irl where legislation is pronounced for the general case. Lets not sweat those specifics til they arise and then leave to moderator's discretion.
2. Hotlinks to vendors
The reason why this was not allowed before was because we had site sponsors who needed to 'get something for their money'. As yet we do not have any banners up here and hence no policy regarding vendors. I would like to see us grow to the point where we needed sponsors (when Andy says we have to start paying something??).
These are my first thoughts on this, just to get the ball rolling ...
Sounds good cass :)
I once gave Eddy some money for getting my banner put up just before he dissapeared. Banner never went up...Eddy dissapeared. So if it is decieded that SPF wants some sponsors I am still interested. But thats only if we deciede banners are wanted.
Booosh
I think one thing that has set spf apart from some of the other site is the relative lack of spam. If we start having sponsors and banners, that just encourages that sort of thing. So I'd hope we could stay away from that as well as not allowing links to vendors.
I am with Too Stoned on this. Lets keep this commercial free as long as we can. If Andy needs money maybe we can solicit some silent benefactors or something.
I don't know you guys. Seems to me as long as we are not spammed to death with shameless self promotion, the occasional member who wants to promote their site should be welcomed. Like fractanamist for instance. Been around along time, is a straight shooter, willing to support the site and it's members, just getting a business going, I think people like him deserve our support....... as long as nobody goes overboard.
I personally think a little commerce stimulates participation. Giving vendors a little (just a little) hanging room for free, works to the sites advantage in the long run.
at edot vendors have to register, and can only post in specific forums, i like spiritplants cause there is no spam period! But some venders like fractanamist and otheres who have been members b4 members should get special exceptions, just my 2 cents. 8)
Well,
I am pretty easy either way. I like the way Edot does it and I think i can work with Spiritplants. I have been a long term member of SPF and would love to advertise my site here but at the same time am not looking to take SPF in a direction she does not want to be taken. As the issue is upon us then what do all the mods and long term members think to it ? I dont think it's going to result in spam if there are strict rules regrding it. Banners to be paid, and no on-forum advertising unless it's decieded there should be a specific vendor forum where vendors can make new announcements.
Boooshpig
why not simply low cost ads? something that would help offset andy's cost but remain apart from the actual forums?
as for the site, what i see here is an AMAZING lack of activism to *legalize* the sacraments we collectively and individually value...if people like us aren't in there making an effort, the zealot fuckheads who rule things right now will go on and on eroding our rights...legality is a shifting territory, and it seems like it mostly, though not completely, tends to move against us...but there are efforts that should be more discussed here...aside from bushpig's excellent posts about the UK shroom legality matter, i've seen no others...
i've noticed such timidity, some of it masquerading as caution but what i would call cowardice, regarding entheogenic freedom...do we really care about this? would any of us put ourselves on the line for it? nobody would get that idea coming here and reading what is posted...people are in jail by the millions for entheogen (including MJ) related "offenses."
whatever you are into, whichever chemical or plant, if you, me, everyone does not do something, speak out, legislation is being prepared to take it from you...wherever you live, not just here in ameriKKKa...
so talk of banners and spam is well enough...something we need to figure out, or at least discuss ongoing, but the larger issue, in my opinion, is what this site is for...is it part of a larger, age-old push for consciousness and freedom? or is it for skulking within what shadows remain to speak in timid tones of little hobbies?
As far as a vendors forum goes, I don't know. I mean, granted I like parusing vendor sections on other sites, but if yah do that, you'll not only be allowing vendors, you'd be attracting them......
Very good point Avery...I agree it will attract vendors. As for whether that is a bad thing I guess it depends on what the members of SPF want from SPF.
Cenacle!!!!! Thank blooody god, goddess or whatever apparition or genitalia you may worship :P
About time someone brought that up. It's been something I've noticed many a time at SPF. I understand as I moderate my own website/forum that for ones own protection there is good reason for non incriminating posts but SPF takes it soooo extreme to the point I wondered whether it as mainly an american paranoia ? It strikes me indeed as cowadice or at least a lack of damn backbone.. We could all be doing so much more to promote this collectives views. Of course the anti is that in doing so we threaten the freedoms of the board owner.
Booosh
I agree with the fact of pushing the legalization envelope, but i for one enjoy the esoteric underground that surrounds these plants. but this is not what this thread is about. someone should start an entheogenic freedom forum, where use and aquisition are not discuseed, only legality, grassroots, and political issues.
we had one at the old SPF, maybe revive it, call it Legal Issues or Advocacy or some such?
Doesnt all that 'legalise' stuff belong in 'The World' :?:
My preference in regard to vendors is this:
Right now we have no sponsors to protect, which was the reason Eddy banned hotlinks to vendors. I think we need a disclaimer at the Tradewinds and maybe somewhere else that no vendor hotlinked at the site has any recommendation from the site and we allow totally open discussion of how good these vendors are.
We also have an understanding that spam is not acceptable and moderators/admins will delete as soon as they spot it.
This way we don't need any changes at all just yet.
I'm not a mod, but I agree fully with Cassie!
I am puzzled that the rules are being discussed in a open forum rather than a mods forum, but can support, not just tolerate, this being here.
That is, it seems either the mods need to set the rules and them disseminate them or we are soliciting user input to the rules.
Either way.
I radically support this discussion taking place in an open forum. How are we going to achieve cognitive liberty with top-down rules?
My preference would be to keep SPR banner, ad, and vendor-hotlink free.
I grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.
I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants. Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance: a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.
Life is long and hard; a moment of indiscretion is brief and easy; the penalties can be long and hard.
I love vendors. I think the Honest Merchant must be one of the Platonic Ideals--and I'm serious as a heart attack about that.
But I like the freedom of no commerical ties or considerations, and I, personally, would be willing to help support the site financially to keep it that way. That said, I feel the discussion of vendors should be no holds barred, with the understanding that vendors can reply but not advertise.
I love this place.
Point of clarification:
If we disallow hotlinks do we still allow vendor sites names to be bandied about? ... coz let's face it there's not much difference between a hotlink and a site name and how do we know when something is considered to be 'advertising' .. heck, vendors could register sock-puppets to sing their own praises.
Then there's the point made above about longtime members who are vendors and spr friends.
What about we allow links to vendors sites in relevant posts but not as bare-faced advertising? This would ensure some level of participation.
There is much sense in what you say, Sunshine Woman :)
I guess it's also true that competing vendors could register sock puppets to trash each other, and members in general could vent grudges with fictitious or exaggerated complaints or help a friend with lavish praise for an order that was never actually made.
Life is messy.
Banners/ads imply at least some degree of endorsement, but allowing open discussion and links with a general "buyer beware" outlook would not. A more open policy about vendor discussions would have saved me some grief back in the days when I was new here and had no experience with online vendors.
I also would like to see the door left open for long-time friends of spiritplants who are or become vendors.
I guess earlier I was stating a sorta "purist" view that needs amending in the face of...uh...reality, whatever that is. I look forward to more discussion.
"Banners/ads imply at least some degree of endorsement"
Yea, and it seems to take away from being impartial. I've recently seen this at LadySalvia.net. One of their vendors, PureSalvia sold some fake salvia seeds and has been slow with orders. I was amazed (and still am) at the comments over there from the moderators about how everyone should cut the guy some slack. If he weren't paying to be there, I'm sure they would have givin him the boot along time ago.
The thing I really don't like is fake trip reports from vendors hyping their product. Which I've seen plenty. In the case of salvia, it is obvious they have never even tried their product and are stating things that are not true and possibly even dangerous.
I don't mind if someone comes in and asked were to buy and plant and someone recommends a known member here, and I trust the members here enough not to be making straw man posts asking for their products. I don't know how to quite write a rule about such situations, sort of needs descresion by the moderators.
Quote from: spaceI grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.
I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants. Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance: a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.
QuoteHa! I think I am one of the elders here! I am pretty sure of that in fact, being behind only a few of us--JRL, Cassie, Jude, Spacey(?), Sal (?) along the path to wherever-next...and while i see the point of continued existence vs. resistance, i do not buy it anymore, if i ever did...i've seen the numbers on prison populations in the US being sickly higher than any other industrial nation in the world, and how much of that is MJ-related...i've read about nazi-like busts of legally-arranged raves like that one recently in utah, i've seen good, helpful entheogens like AMT outlawed as having NO value whatsoever while people booze and cigarette smoke their way to early, rotten deaths...
there is no such thing as holding the line, if there ever was...the hackass nutjobs who think they rule the world are out to suppress everyone not marching in their line...to put down people of color, women, people of alternative sexuality, advocates of any kind of living that does not conform to their corporate apocalyptic views of reality...
and what have entheogens taught me? to just keep walking, head down, move along? fuck that...i don't sit at my job tripping, i don't advocate LSD to random folks at the busstop...but i do find my chances to speak on behalf of freedom and i take them...
if not now, when? that's my view...people like mckenna and leary in the old days, ginsberg, huxley, they put themselves right in the fire on behalf of these sacraments (and their adherents), and what they could mean for life on earth...there are those now like shulgin who take blows on our behalf...so that, what? we can keep along like sheep with a secret or two?...i'm sorry, not me...each makes his/her choice, mine is to find ways to advocate, not just for entheogens, but for related things, for progressive laws on sexual freedom and healthcare...for better housing and education for all...for art and music any chance i get...why i talk at length to anyone who sincerely wishes to know about entheogens...i'm one person, but i do what i can...
that's why i go to burning man every year and some other events and among the books my press gifts out are anthologies of writings on psychedelics...we need to teach our people, the ones who want to know, and allow that anyone on the street could become one of us too, that ultimately there should be no us vs. them...humanity is one big tribe that has forgotten its common root and ongoing bonds of dependence...
this is what i do, and i'd like to see it happen more at least at these forums, i'd like to see posts on what good is going on in the world regarding entheogen law and related issues, and what we need to know about what is happening to our brothers and sisters out there...these things matter...they matter a lot...i'll be damned if i'll let the scumsucking henfuckers out there do what they will without a dirty loud fight...
who's with me? :twisted:
Quote from: "cenacle"Quote from: "space"I grok cenacle's point about resistance; but sometimes continued existence is resistance, and, like Cassie, I see no obstacle to any discussion or organization of more focused cognitive liberty efforts here.
I have always admired the refusal to allow self-incrimination at spiritplants. Though I hate to sound too much like Old Uncle Spacey, it is a short-sightedness peculiar to youth to brave every consequence of defiance: a little discretion can go a long way, and sometimes the "elders" need to set the limits.
Ha! I think I am one of the elders here! I am pretty sure of that in fact, being behind only a few of us--JRL, Cassie, Jude, Spacey(?), Sal (?) along the path to wherever-next...and while i see the point of continued existence vs. resistance, i do not buy it anymore, if i ever did...
...
this is what i do, and i'd like to see it happen more at least at these forums, i'd like to see posts on what good is going on in the world regarding entheogen law and related issues, and what we need to know about what is happening to our brothers and sisters out there...these things matter...they matter a lot...i'll be damned if i'll let the scumsucking henfuckers out there do what they will without a dirty loud fight...
who's with me? :twisted:
I think we've been with you all along, cen, though I'd like to see more posts like that, too.
What you do with publishing is good work; we probably all feel that we're doing what we can, but you're right--we could all always do more.
Hope I didn't sound like I was laying claim to some kind of village elder status here--in terms of the blood, sweat and time put into spiritplants, I'm definitely a village junior. Frankly, I just meant that I hate to sound like a fuddy-duddy.
But I do worry about needless incrimination--we're in a struggle between asymmetrical forces, as the military likes to say these days, and battles have to be chosen. If I have to attract attention, I'd rather do it with direct action like street protest, fundraising, or activist publishing like yours, than through a careless remark. I feel esp. protective about the younger members.
Does this mean you don't like banners? ;)
i think low cost banners would be great, affordable to the vendors, and of of course people whose services we know enough to endorse...further, i think the money should be used entirely to re-invest in the site...such as doing up SPF t-shirts/mugs etc to sell...and the money we raise this way can go to help andy pay for the server space expenses...
and that said, can we promote SPF elsewhere? how would we go about joining 'rings' and the like? nothing we'd have to pay for, but i bet we could get more folks to visit this way...
and *that* said, we'd have to definitely keep abreast of what is advertised and discussed...but i believe that responsible advocacy, such as MAPS, can live, even thrive, in this dangerous world...
Going back to the original topic, I think observing usa laws is enough. If we try to obey laws of every country on earth, it simply won't work. What about grey area stuff? There are RC's that may or may not be illegal. Even if there is no law that says xy and z are illegal, they can nail the vendors under an analogue act or somesuch. I've heard lots of stories about sellers who got not just shut down but put in jail facing serious time for selling what they believed was legal. If the govenment decides you are wrong, you get put away, law or no law.
I don't know the answer to all that but I think grey area chems might be something to not allow while herbs not specificaly banned should be ok even if they could be misused. We all saw Cheech Martin get busted for glass. Are we going to ban glass? I agree with canacle's sentiment that we don't want to hide under the bed in fear the government will come after us for thinking illegal thoughts. But, some things are so obviously risky that we should have some rules.
I haven't heard from andy in a while. His input on these subjects would be very informative. If we are going to have banners, we should have some guidlines. What if someone selling RC's wants a banner? I think long time members such as Bushpig or Frac should be able to discuss their wares from time to time. Someone who just joined this year, maybe not. Should the dividing line be those who were regulars before we came here?
As far as raising money goes, what about paid classified ads? We could have a page for that and charge a small amount like $5 for 3 months of 2 or 3 lines. That would keep the rest of SPF free from clutter.
how is it we are following US law when this site is on a server in Ireland? did you mean US law for discussion or vendor advertising? i agree we do need to talk to andy, i think he is setting up a new house with his wife and they may even have a new baby...let's see how he weighs in with all this...
I really think we should just stick to the 'no incrimination' guideline, which means one is restricted by the laws of the country one lives in. It just doesn't make sense to use American law as the standard. For example: if we are serious about no incrimination then aussies can't talk about growing salvia but kiwis can and I can use iboga legally, but most of you can't ... and so on.
Indeed, SPF is an international forum. No incrimination rule should be in relation to ones own country.
The poster could simply say he was in a country that allowed whatever it was he was talking about. Are we going to say "no, you said in another post you were in USA and now you say it's Canada." We could do that but isn't it the DEA and other usa agencies that we are concerned about? Aren't most of our members in USA? What if a LEO cruises our forum and sees a lot of peyote swapping going on and the people all claim they are from England or Canada but the IP which the cop can trace is from USA?
What about a rule on spamming? I suggest a rule against spamming any form of research chemicals unless it's something sold over the counter at wallmart. How about allowing long time members to offer herbs, plants and things for sale or swap but not allowing new names to do it?
Quote from: "Stonehenge"The poster could simply say he was in a country that allowed whatever it was he was talking about. Are we going to say "no, you said in another post you were in USA and now you say it's Canada." We could do that but isn't it the DEA and other usa agencies that we are concerned about? Aren't most of our members in USA? What if a LEO cruises our forum and sees a lot of peyote swapping going on and the people all claim they are from England or Canada but the IP which the cop can trace is from USA?
What about a rule on spamming? I suggest a rule against spamming any form of research chemicals unless it's something sold over the counter at wallmart. How about allowing long time members to offer herbs, plants and things for sale or swap but not allowing new names to do it?
I find policing what can be traded and cannot be traded to be difficult.
Salvia not in Australia but in the US; peyote not in US but in Australia.
What to do?
I don't have a solution.
As for selling plants, perhaps members need to be both registered for a set minimum period and have a minimum number of posts made so that their character can be judged before they start advertizing here.
Winder, that makes a lot of sense
"As for selling plants, perhaps members need to be both registered for a set minimum period and have a minimum number of posts made so that their character can be judged before they start advertizing here."
I thought this page in Philzone.com is pretty good. Maybe could be adapted for our purposes.
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Toostoned, that would cover it but is kind of vague and could be used in any way the admins or mods felt like using it. It also bans any trading, or selling. Parts of it look good but I'm not sure if we are ready to ban everything right now.
How about a min of 1 year on the board and 100 posts to be able to offer for sale anything for cash?
We can work on other rules later if there are more suggestions.
Yea, that was just their rules, I was thinking we could modify them.
I like the year/50 post idea for selling anything for cash or posting about a retail outlet etc.
As for it being vague. It's hard to post specific behaivous for every situation and the moderators and adminstrator's of course need to use some discression.
the cash thing really bugs me...i'm not against it totally, but we REALLY have to watch it...cyberspace gets sticky when money gets involved...if we let people sell on our site, we are endorsing them...are we ready to deal with this? i think there should be a filter, some kind of request to mods/admins to post products, we vet the site for legality, then approve, and this after the year/100 posts thing...i know this seems cumbersome but we have GOT to make sure we are protecting andy in particular, mods/admins, and the community as a whole...it's not like it's ads with a gain for community...bushpig was willing to buy an ad, why are we not going that route with all profit businesses? we can make them cheap to help out vendors but still protect the community...i thought trade of legal things (acc to country) was cool, but i am really shaky about commercial advertisements...i'm assuming we're not just talking of signatures...i think it's good we're discussing this at length, a residual benefit is how we are working together on this all :)
Yes, I tend to agree with cenacle's view on this matter. We just had a character show up and brazenly offer to sell plants like this was ebay but without the fees. We don't know who someone is when they just show up. They could be out and out ripoffs and make a new name when they get caught doing stuff. That would lead to a bad reputation for SPF. We are in a sense endorsing them when we allow someone to sell on the site.
We could say 1 year and 50 posts for posting a link, something like that. The link would of course be subject to approval by SPF staff. There is a difference between posting a link to a place you think is good and offering to sell on the site. For that, 1 year and 100 posts is not much. It may not be enough to ensure they are honorable but it's a start. I think it would be good to require approval from an administrator before posting anything for sale or to have a link to a commercial site. Someone could say I got a good deal at bouncing bear and that's fine. But, if they start putting a link out there, they should clear it with someone first.
Advertisements are another area that can be tricky. We will at some point need to offer banners or paid ads. I don't mind someone like Frac or Bush offering things to sell and they have not taken advantage of the situation but perhaps there should be a limit on free ads even for the long time members? I'd say if a member asks where to get something, a long time member can answer as many of those as they like. To post a list of things for sale is an ad and should be limited to no more than once a month or some other time period.
How about:
*One year and 50 posts to post a link
*One year and 100 posts to post an ad
*All ads muct be approved by admin and links can be approved by a mod.
We've been fairly laid back about posting links in the past. Sooner or later we will get taken advantage of. Best to have a policy in place to deal with it.
I am far more comfortable with links here than ads, but ads do have their place. If we sell ades that is a source of revenue but does involve us more than permitting a link.
The two-tiered approach is very reasonable. Go for it.
"We will at some point need to offer banners or paid ads."
This doens't have to be true.
We have done good so far staying away from commericialzation. I'm thinking the right approach is to stay away from cash, vendors, etc. BeJeBus wouldn't allowed money changers in the temple. Why should we?
well as long as andy is able to host us for free, we don't need to sell ads...that frees us to avoid the matter for now...we could have fundraisers for t-shirts, mugs, etc...i would love a nice spf shirt hehe...
but back to the point: links seem ok, we all agree...and none of us seem much cool with posts that sell stuff...and ads we're sort of not sure on...
mostly, i think we don't want someone showing up with who knows what in hand for sale...this is a community where door-to-door salesmen are not welcome...
do we need a statement people agree to before entering site, or at least before joining? do we have one? i forget :P
Suggestions? 75 is an arbitrary number of course. 100 sound better?
75 sounds good. It's enough that we can see what kind of person we are dealing with. Now if they post 75 crappy posts we can deal with that then.
agreed...it would take a special kind of defect to post THAT many bullshit posts just to get sales posting privileges...er...emm...nm :twisted: